1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Who do you endorse for president in 2020?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Andrew99, May 4, 2019.

  1. BMC77

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    107
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I forgot to address this earlier:

    On some levels, I think some things may have to start on the state level. And it could, in theory, work. We saw this with marriage equality, which started on a state level. I don't think, in fact, it would exist nationally now it hadn't been for the states that legalized marriage equality.

    That said, though, it will need progressives in state government, and I don't know that they exist in sufficient numbers, even in blue states. Those blue states seem to me (at a distance) to be dominated by a Democratic Party that has the same mentality that it has nationally. So getting anything progressive done will be a battle (and, in my most cynical, burned out moments I think impossible).
     
  2. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,251
    Likes Received:
    1,259
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    @BMC77

    This is what I mean by the progressive dissatisfaction

    Obama accomplished the following with a resistant Congress

    The affordable care act. Yep we wanted more. But, my wife is a physician the the ACA was a major step toward universal health care. Not to mention that parity for mental health and dental care for children of low means was part of the legislation. Along with this Medicaid was expanded significantly...hugely.

    Public Lands. Obama protected more land than any other President in history.

    DACA
    Repeal of Don't ask Don't tell
    Opening up Cuba/US relations
    Iran Nuclear Deal
    Frank/Dodd Banking Act
    Paris Climate Accord

    Expansion of green energy...wind generation increase 300% Solar over an 40 fold increase. Carbon due to electrical generation down over 25%. 165,000 new jobs in solar energy.

    Obama introduced increasing the minimum wage by Federal Action (shot down in a GOP Congress... big surprise)

    These results were incredible considering the cooperation he received from Congress.

    I think Biden should run on Obama's and his progressive achievements rather than take the BS that nothing happened.
     
  3. zuice

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2015
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    Biden. Peace has come!
     
  4. zuice

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2015
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    Nader and Stein were wasted votes.
     
  5. zuice

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2015
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    We are so close to losing marriage equality. Contribute money to Biden and you will save the right to love in your household.
     
  6. zuice

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2015
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    1.7 billion dollars of business losses!
     
  7. zuice

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2015
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    This election is a test of common sense.
     
  8. BMC77

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    107
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    @Nickw

    I probably should clarify that Obama did some good things. ACA was far from ideal, for example, but I do have to credit it as an improvement.

    At the same time, though, he also did things that progressives like me don't like. For one thing: it can be argued the ACA could have been better than it was. And I'm disturbed by the amount of military action. And I'm disturbed by his love of the TPP, which was viewed in progressive circles as even worse than NAFTA.

    So I view him as a standard, establishment Democrat. Not progressive, but he does some good things. He was Clinton Part II. Clinton also undoubtedly did good things, at least when he wasn't screwing us over with NAFTA. (Incidentally, at some point Hillary Clinton talked about making her husband "jobs czar." I thought of NAFTA, and that may have been the moment I lost faith in HRC as anything but not as bad as Trump.)

    I'm not alone. Kyle Kulinski did a Secular Talk segment grading Obama. He also did something on the best president of his lifetime (which would mean Reagan or the first Bush would be the first contender). I don't remember the outcome, but Obama got something like a C-range grade. And Kulinski struggled over Clinton vs. Obama. Both had good points, bad points, but neither was really a progressive's dream.

    I might also note that Obama was a vast improvement when it came to LGBT rights than any former president. Which is one reason I think he's so liked in LGBT circles. But on a personal note--and I'm sure this applies to others, too--having things like marriage equality is pretty pointless for me. I can't afford to go on a date, let alone get married. And maybe if Obama had pushed for something to help people like me we'd have seen some slight improvement, or at least opened the door. It's probably too late for me, but it may not be too late for others.

    Likewise, had he been more aggressive pushing for something for real people, maybe Clinton would have won. A lot of people probably looked at Obama, and thought he didn't care about their problems,and decided HRC would be the same, and why not try Trump? If, however, he'd been vocal, maybe they'd have thought that maybe there was some concern, and maybe HRC would be worth a shot.
     
  9. BMC77

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    107
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    One progressive show (Secular Talk, I think) has suggested that Biden might look at the fact that Obama was really an establishment Democrat in practice, and decide to run on that. The other prediction: despite Biden's strength now, he'll fade quickly once primaries start. One piece of supporting evidence: he's run twice before, and never got very far. Of course, it can be argued that he does have one plus this time: better name recognition.
     
    #89 BMC77, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  10. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,251
    Likes Received:
    1,259
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    @BMC77

    What can a President do to help you personally? How did Obama and Clinton fail you?

    Belaboring the point a bit. Obama inherited a devastating economy that was destroying the accumulated wealth (houses and retirement plans) for the middle class. An outright banking catastrophe. He did a great job in turning this. Yet, he somehow didn't talk a reluctant Congress into a progressive's dream for health care reform?

    This is my point. Presidents do not operate in a vacuum. Presidents are given a Congress that they have no control over and an economic time that is cyclic. So, they don't have the luxury of making things their way. Obama created 16 million jobs after the great recession. His type of stimulus package (infrastructure spending thru State run projects) gave me and many families I work with an income during the recession. It is hard for me to see that real people were not benefited by his actions.

    And, my boyfriend is a millennial. Obama's student loan forgiveness allowed him to make it through the recession in a bad job market.
     
  11. zuice

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2015
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    If you want a democracy- it's time to donate to it.

    The rich got a tax cut because they paid for it by rich donations to the GOP.
     
  12. BMC77

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    107
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    @Nickw

    It's been argued by smarter people than me that yes, there was a lot of job creation in the Obama years, but there wasn't enough creation of good paying jobs. This has been observed by numerous people, and I even saw a newspaper piece (I think it was--certainly mainstream media) during that era suggesting that some upcoming election (2016, I think) wouldn't be about jobs, it would be about good jobs.

    I don't know exact numbers. But I do know there are a lot of people who are really, really hurting. You may not be aware of this since it appears that you have a life of economic privilege. But those people are out there.

    Admittedly, the president's power is limited. There is only so much a president can do--which is why Bernie Sanders always said he couldn't do it alone. But, at the same time, the president can lead. And when faced with a non-functioning Congress, the president can be outspoken. Trump is good at that, and I'm sure a lot of people have, as a result, put pressure on Congress to support Trump's wall. So, for example, Obama could have pushed for a better minimum wage (and while at it, why not try for a real improvement rather than a token raise to $10.10?).

    Also a president can refrain from promoting shitty trade deals. Maybe HRC would have done better in the Rust Belt if it hadn't been for husband's NAFTA.
     
  13. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,251
    Likes Received:
    1,259
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Obama referred to this sort of dialogue by progressives as a "circular firing squad" and it is something we need to be careful of in this election. Class warfare within the Democratic Party.

    In this case, it is the assumption that those that make it in the system don't understand how it is to be at the lower end of the economic spectrum which could not be further from the truth in my case.

    Shouldn't instead you ask how someone like me used resources, provided by the government, to pull myself up out of lower economic class? What tools did I utilize, besides the obvious privilege of being a white male, to do that and how can that be expanded?

    Obama is criticized for his job creation and lack of minimum wage increases. This is revisionist history by, largely, Sanders promoters. I think no discussion of economic gains by workers for the last ten years should leave out the devastation of a worldwide major recession.

    You might not feel this way but most everyone in this country really does believe in the American experience of being able to work and have a successful life.

    The issue at hand now is for the Democrats to find a united way to show that this can be done to everyone's advantage. Trump has created a narrative that providing opportunity for the disadvantaged will take from those that are comfortable in this system.

    We need to prove this isn't the case.
     
  14. OGS

    OGS
    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,671
    Likes Received:
    685
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    This thread has been quite a ride. I came into it pretty firmly as a Biden democrat, over the rather express objection of my husband, I might add. I think this thread has brought me around where my husband couldn't. I wish I could say it was the progressives in the thread who convinced me, but it wasn't. I absolutely can't see any common ground between myself and the vision of moderate politics that has been espoused here. I know there's a point where politics make strange bedfellows but there also comes a point where you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas...
     
  15. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,251
    Likes Received:
    1,259
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Just to be clear. I voted for Sanders in the 2016 primary. And, I voted for Nader in 2000. I thought I had that luxury.

    I will continue to send contributions to Buttigieg during this primary because I feel he can articulate what, obviously, I cannot in a non threatening way.

    But, I believe progressives need to be very very careful when criticizing the accomplishments of the Obama Administration in this primary season.
     
    #95 Nickw, May 10, 2019
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  16. BMC77

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    107
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    And when were you at at the low end of the economic spectrum? I'm guessing based on what I remember of your posts it was some time back. Do you understand what it's like today with today's realities?

    Being fair...this has applied to me. I've had two bad periods in my life: the present, and then a period 20 years ago. The two eras were different. And the "sort of OK" years in between did mean I reached a point when I didn't fully get the impact of poverty...until it happened again.


    And yes, it's reasonable to talk about the resources people used in the past. But here's why I say era matters: a lot of the resources don't exist. Or they do exist, but they aren't as good. It is pointless to talk about "expanding" resources. Well, we can talk about it...but the resources to be expanded are far less than was once the case.

    For example: college, which has become almost a requirement for any decent job in the US, has become a lot less affordable since you were a student. There are a multitude of factors--some which aren't government problems to be fair. Some, though, are government issues, like unaffordable tuition at state institutions. Some states once had free tuition. (Bernie Sanders is not so radical in proposing free college since it's something we once had in a few states.) Other states weren't free, but were considerably more affordable. I've witnessed this in my own state--the tuition rates sky-rocketed in my memory.

    Another possible example: the SNAP program. I"m not sure what cuts have taken place. But there are cuts (and the Obama that everyone is supposed to love) went along with one set of cuts. I'm on the SNAP program, and I'm so poor that I receive maximum benefit. I was talking with someone who had to be on SNAP when she was in college many years ago. I was shocked to hear how much more she was getting a month--and that was just raw dollars, not adjusted for inflation. The program now is enough that I can survive with a reasonably healthy diet. Although it can be argued that I can't afford some things for optimum health. Oh, well. I drop dead it's one less person to criticize Obama or the Democratic Party of 2019!

    Although the next round of cuts will probably change that in a hurry. And call me cynical, but I see Democrats caving in on this issue to "centrist" or "bipartisan" or "reach across the aisle."

    But enough of this. The thing is...we have had resources. We could have them again. Ideally, matched to the realities of this era.

    And we can afford to do social programs. We are wasting a huge amount of money on the military. We don't need so much military spending. We don't need to be going to endless unnecessary war/military action.

    The problem is that this reality has become nothing more than an empty promise for a lot of people. It used to be: "work hard, and do well." Now it's: "work your ass off, and maybe you can survive."
     
  17. BMC77

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    107
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    And if there can't be healthy debate (which includes criticism of past policy), how can problems be fixed? How can things be made better? And, in cases where progressives might be wrong, how will they be influenced to change their minds if there is no debate?

    Again: many people have frustration with Obama for one reason, or another, or a slew of reasons. And pretending he's the greatest president ever, and avoiding any criticism, won't help sell a candidate in 2020 to these people.

    Indeed, one reason I despised Hillary Clinton was because at one point she was talking about how great things were with Obama. And the attitude--I felt, for right or wrong--was that she felt like all we needed to do is hit the cruise control for 8 years. Guess what, Hillary! Things weren't so great for me, and many others!

    I wonder how many Rust Belt votes that cost her?

    A better attitude might have been: Obama did a number of good things, but there are a lot of problems to be solved! (Even I, an Obama critic, could go along with a modified form of this: he did some good things, did make some things better, but there are a lot of problems remaining,)

    But then, I don't think HRC even gave a shit about the problems of real people in real America.

    But I digress.
     
  18. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,251
    Likes Received:
    1,259
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I think I should probably stop with this since I am making my point by being part of an example of what I fear the most with this election.

    That is that the Democrats will concentrate on what separates them rather than what unites them and that will allow Trump to win.
     
  19. Dionysios

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2018
    Messages:
    662
    Likes Received:
    576
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Are readers here aware that Trump's polling numbers are at a all time high? According to Rassmussen's it's 49% (higher than Obama's at this point in his presidency). Despite some good ideas and thoughtful proposals by Democratic candidates, the odds of any of them defeating Trump in the Electoral College are slim.

    I will enthusiatically support and vote for whoever the Dems nominate, but it's an uphill fight. There can be no complacency, especially in key swing states.
     
  20. Niagara

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    153
    Location:
    Florida - United States
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    All but family
    I think the main divide with Trump is that people expect different things from him. If you remove the politics and corruption stuff from it, he’s done a fantastic job for the country as an organization in a very short amount of time. Low unemployment, new tax plan, securing the borders, pushing North Korea from wanting to nuke us into signing peace agreements with South Korea etc.

    The problem is he doesn’t spend much effort on the lives of citizens themselves, so individual people don’t feel helped by him. The people who elected him to help the country itself are happy with him, which is why the approval ratings are high, but the people who expected him to help the citizens themselves dislike him because they don’t feel personally helped like they did with Democrat stimulus plans.

    The next election seems to be a fight between what’s best for individual people (Sanders free college stuff for example) and what’s best for the country as an entity on paper (border security, powerful military etc.)