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"bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of people.

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by NonsnsOnStilts, May 6, 2014.

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  1. all paths

    all paths
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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Really?? Belittling?

    Dismissive and condescending, at the very least.

    I've known 15 year olds who were much more mature and aware of themselves & the world than most 40-year-olds their age.
     
    #41 all paths, May 7, 2014
  2. ThisIsTheKenneth

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Yeah I find it real funny that my identity requires some sort of "proof" but if I were straight or gay folks would accept it without blinking :lol:
    Seriously though.
     
    #42 ThisIsTheKenneth, May 7, 2014
  3. Orange Bananas

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I feel like romantic orientation and sexual orientation are quite similar and often hard to distinguish. Both terms are also often misused. Romantic orientation is something for some people, I guess. It can get very confusing very quickly, but then again, can't most LGBT matters?
     
    #43 Orange Bananas, May 7, 2014
  4. Ebro1122

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I had no intention of being dismissive, condescending or belittling. I don't really know any other way of expressing my concern over the fact that a 15 year old, in the early stages of puberty, does not experience sexual attraction. This appears alarming, and something that needs to be evaluated by a medical professional. And to the young man, I respect your right to identify as anything you see fit.
     
    #44 Ebro1122, May 7, 2014
  5. all paths

    all paths
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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    How about just like that? -> "I am concerned over the fact that a 15 year old, in the early stages of puberty, does not experience sexual attraction."

    That is a perfectly nice way to put it.

    Misinformed, but nice. xD


    I did not experience what I could honestly & truly now identify as "sexual" attraction to anyone at all, until I was at least 22-23.

    And asexuals, who DO exist, are perfectly normal and physically and psychologically healthy...and never experience sexual attraction. lol

    I guess you just haven't read much about it. The asexual community is wonderful. :slight_smile: You should read more about them so you have a better understanding.

    There's nothing to worry about, about them. ;D
     
    #45 all paths, May 7, 2014
  6. Ebro1122

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I'm sure there are some legitimate asexuals. However, given the fact that true asexuals are such a *tiny* percentage, if I were a parent, I would err on the side of caution. That means full medical evaluations and periodic hormonal check-ups.
     
    #46 Ebro1122, May 7, 2014
  7. Fallingdown7

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    But how does asexuality have anything to do with hormone checkups? Asexuals can still have sex drives. Some asexuals have even higher sex drives than hetero/homo/bisexuals and they masturbate to porn daily. It's just that they don't have an interest in another person.

    However, I do agree that sexuality is about sex and not romance (It's not called romanticality after all).

    Saying that doesn't necessarily erase asexuals. That's why you call yourself ASEXUAL and not hetero/homo/bi/pansexual. Identifying as -insert word here- romantic might be practical for a lot of aces, but they are still *asexual* first, because sexuality terms are about sexual attraction.
     
    #47 Fallingdown7, May 7, 2014
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  8. ThisIsTheKenneth

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Yeah have a feeling Ebro had like no idea what they were talking about. Coulda just said you were concerned about my health or whatever and not that it's any of your business I am aroused from time to time and so yeah. Sexual attraction=/=arousal.
     
    #48 ThisIsTheKenneth, May 7, 2014
  9. ChromeNerd

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I would as well. I once saw a thirteen year old who said they were asexual, but curious about sex. I don't a thirteen year old can know they are asexual, especially if they are curious about sex.
    Since he says that he is gray-a at fifteen there is a chance that he may experience more sexual attraction as he gets older. Apperently my aunt didn't experience any attraction to guys until she was eighteen. She is now a regular heterosexual.
     
    #49 ChromeNerd, May 7, 2014
  10. Chip

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    No, it's not misinformed. There's an old saying, "when you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras."

    Less than 1% of the population is asexual according to the best data available (which isn't the greatest.)

    A typical 15 year old almost certainly has not had a proper work-up by a qualified, expereinced mental health professional who understands the distinction between genuine asexuality (or any of its unrecognized variant flavors) and low or nonexistend sexual attraction that is arising as a secondary symptom of a legitimate mental health issue (as I said elsewhere, anxiety and depression being ones known to impact sexual attraction/arousal.)

    So it's entirely prudent and appropriate to question this situation and wonder if reasonable evaluation has actually been made, or whether the person in question simply read something on the Internet and self-diagnosed.

    Yes, of course, asexuals exist. But in tiny numbers. Anxiety and depression and other mental health issues that can cause a loss of sexual desire exist in far greater numbers and a lot more likely. Those and other related mental health concerns should certainly be considered and ruled out before one adopts the asexual label. To do anything else is simply not prudent.
     
    #50 Chip, May 7, 2014
  11. all paths

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Definitely there's always a chance.

    And yes, I would wager as you go down in age, that chance is more & more likely. Personally I just think everyone just identifies at the time of their life that they need to identify.

    Although I suppose some might jump the gun a little, just because they're either really into sorting themselves out & exploring who they are in general, or...well, for whatever reason.

    But I'm not personally going to sit here and tell anyone they aren't what they feel they are. I may, at maximum, only suggest to them that for many people, things keep changing and "settling" into what they're going to be, well past the age of 13-15. (And even, as has been noted, for some, well into their adult years.)

    Human beings are such fluid creatures, after all. :slight_smile:
     
    #51 all paths, May 7, 2014
  12. ThisIsTheKenneth

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    Excuse me, but have you had a "proper work-up" to "diagnose" your sexual orientation??

    Actually, you know what, fuck all of you. Seriously I am done. SO DONE WITH YOU.


    Bye you will not see another post from me.
     
    #52 ThisIsTheKenneth, May 8, 2014
  13. all paths

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    [​IMG]
     
    #53 all paths, May 8, 2014
  14. Quem

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I didn't experience it that much either, and I'm not at all depressed, or have other issues whatsoever :icon_bigg . Perhaps he does experience sexual attraction weakly, but fails to recognize it properly as "sexual attraction". Therefore he comes to the conclusion that he is asexual.

    I agree with Chip, when you are 15, no matter how smart you are, you won't fully recognize everything you're experiencing. You will (probably) eventually. Believe me, I thought I was asexual too, but I learned that I'm in fact demisexual, I just didn't recognize it. :slight_smile:
     
    #54 Quem, May 8, 2014
  15. Fallingdown7

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    ^ To every reply above

    Yup. Just like a 15 year old can think they are gay, but never truly are. They will probably feel straight attraction eventually. Teen sexuality is never static after all, you're really "too young" to ever know you are gay until adulthood anyway!

    Seriously, that's what all of you sound like. If you're too young to ID as asexual, you're WAY too young to ID as gay. Teen sexuality is fluid in general; not just with asexuals.

    But I'm not going to tell them they can't ID as gay or bisexual (or even straight) when their feelings might change. I thought I was legit bi at 14 and I wasn't right about that at all; but it still shouldn't have robbed me from my identity. Same goes for asexual teens.

    And I identified as gray-ace as a teen and guess what? I'm still gray-a at 23.

    Asexuals feel sexual arousal too, sometimes more so than sexuals do. I've always had a higher sex drive than my sexual friends- before I got medicated for it anyway.

    And even if someone has low arousal caused by problems like depression or anxiety, WHO CARES? It's not even your business or concern. It's only a concern if they want to have sex but can't. If someone doesn't want to have sex, leave them alone about it.
    Just like if you had a high sex drive, you wouldn't want someone saying "Oh you have issues, we better cure that before you head down the road to sexual addiction".

    Sex has health benefits, but It's not like It's a huge need such as food and water. It won't kill you to go without, you'll just get agitated. I've never had sexual contact with someone else in my entire life, and I haven't masturbated in 10 months either. And oh look, I'm still alive and healthy. I'm a lot happier without any sexual stimulation in my life, and that's my decision. I don't need people breathing down my neck and trying to over analyzing why I might not want to have sexual contact. Seriously? F-off!

    And if sex is really a physical need, you can still help the body through masturbation (which I guarantee that pretty much nearly ALL asexuals do to begin with). Why is it such a big deal for a 15 year old to not feel sexual attraction and not identify with it; considering a lot of young teens don't think about the risks of pregnancy, STD's, and emotional consequences that come with sex? 15-year olds don't NEED to have sex or feel sexual attraction at their age. (Arousal? Sure, but asexuals FEEL AROUSAL).

    As for demisexuality- It's still under the asexual umbrella. Even if he later finds out he is demi, he'd still technically be "asexual".

    Also why are you people not saying that he's too *young* to be trans? Teens go through trans phases too before realizing they are cis (Not saying he ISN'T, of course he can know he is at 15, but It's just odd that It's *okay* to identify as trans or gay at 15, but not ace because oh you'll ~change~).

    And even if he does change? Who cares. Stop thinking about it. It's his right to identify with how he identifies with now.
     
    #55 Fallingdown7, May 8, 2014
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  16. all paths

    all paths
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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    ^this
     
    #56 all paths, May 8, 2014
  17. ChromeNerd

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I don't think teen sexuality is that fluid. It's just very confusing. I used to think I was straight, but a late bloomer. Now I think that I'm probably gay. The funny thing is my sexual orientation was clearer before puberty. I knew that I wanted to marry a woman when I was seven. I didn't really think much of it because I thought it was just a childish daydream.
     
    #57 ChromeNerd, May 8, 2014
  18. Fallingdown7

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    It's "fluid" in the way that a lot of teens don't really know who they are and question or "change" their sexual identity more. That was really my point. It's completely possible to not feel sexual attraction as a teen, and to still not feel sexual attraction as adult without it changing. It can change sure, but you're a teen too, so you being gay could just be a phase as well and you might start feeling opposite sex sexual attraction more so when older.

    I mean most people wouldn't want to hear that when they identify as gay as teen (Forgive me for being demeaning if I was, I had to use it as an example, since I went from "bi" thoughout my entire teen years to gay as an adult myself) so we can't hold double standards and force that on others.
     
    #58 Fallingdown7, May 8, 2014
  19. sldanlm

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    I agree. If I'd had only one or a few experiences with my BF I would still consider myself a lesbian, despite the flak I got from an acquaintance. (or losing my so called gold star statue)

    I would think that from the bolded part of what you said that despite any feelings you might have for guys, if something is missing in the relationship and you have to try to make a relationship work more than you would for a women, that doesn't like like being bi, at least in a romantic sense.

    While sexuality may be a sexual attraction, it seems that, for me at least, romance or emotions have affected it. I dated guys in high school trying to make myself straight, and I had about as much sexual desire for them as a door. In fact, when I did try sexual contact with them, even one I had a brief crush on, it felt wrong. Now I have a very satisfying relationship with a guy, but this attraction, although physical, is different than any I've had with women in general. I've known the guy for 4 yrs now, but have only been dating him for one. Also, this desire didn't occur until we'd been dating for a couple of months. Although the desire feels primal, chemical and out of my hands to decide or control, it certainly wasn't at first sight. So what really causes sexual desire in a person anyway? Science knows that in general there is a chemical component, but could genetics also play a role in it? Could this guy be biologically different to me than other guys? Or am I a demi sexual bi, with the ability to desire any guy as long as I have emotional feelings for him first?

    I totally agree with this, at least now. A year ago I was very confused and worried about it. Just when I think I know what my label is or should be, something comes along to make me question it. The main thing is though, I'm not really worried about my label so much anymore. Other people I know seem to be worrying about it more than me, people that I'm not even dating anyway. My current relationship is working just fine for me so far, and is more important than a label.
     
    #59 sldanlm, May 8, 2014
  20. Ebro1122

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    Re: "bi" is a flawed and incoherent category and leads to confusion for a lot of peop

    fallingdown7
    "...and even if someone has low arousal caused by problems like depression or anxiety, who cares? It's not even your business or concern. It's only a concern if they want to have sex but can't. If someone doesn't want to have sex, leave them alone about it."

    Low arousal caused by depression IS a problem! Any responsible parent would want to investigate the causes of something that could potentially harm their child. If that means having them speak to a therapist about these issues, then so be it. Whether you want to admit it or not, low to no arousal in a young teen boy is NOT something to be embraced as easily as being gay or bisexual (because those are not caused by any negative impact on ones physical or phychological health). Low testorone in a young teen can be caused by something called hypogonadism. This disorder can delay the onset of secondary sex characteristics as well as sexual desire and arousal. So can people please stop accusing this conversation of attacking asexuals!?
     
    #60 Ebro1122, May 8, 2014
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