Expose myself......

Merlin,

For the record, and being about the same age group you are I don't think I've ever had a conversation about retirement, pensions, health problems, or anything else you're describing as a "typical 50 year old conversation" with people in my age cohort. Instead, those conversations are about technology, spirituality, music, environmental issues, TED talks, interesting business developments, relationships, politics, and so forth. In fact, one of my friends, who is in his mid-70s and didn't come out until his late 60s, was showing us his pictures of his trip to Burning Man, and we were talking about politics in the gay community. The so-called "old age" topics almost never come up.

It seems like you have a really, really negatively skewed idea about people your own age, and I can near-guarantee you that if you enter therapy with the idea that you can't change your attractions, and that I'm wrong... you will likely create a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, honestly, unless you're going to go in with a can-do attitude, it isn't worth wasting your time and money.

It also seems like, no matter what people are telling you, you still aren't interested in having a healthy relationship, and aren't willing to accept that a healthy relationship with someone young enough to be your son isn't going to happen.

So... have at it.

 

It also happens to be supported by most of the research on psychotherapy. There's no question that clients who voluntarily enter therapy without being arm twisted by family members or others have better outcomes than those who don't. Additionally, people who voluntarily enter therapy but aren't ready or willing to do the necessary work generally don't have great benefit either. This isn't to say that therapy has no effect on those who are in it unwillingly, only that the outcomes are universally much better when the client is actually engaged and interested in changing.

You aren't, so, as I said before, you're going to create a self-fulfilling prophecy, and then go "See? See? I told you it wouldn't work!" Therefore, you're better off going and buying yourself the boyfriend of your dreams, because that's what it will be.

When you look at measurable outcomes and other factors, it is true that simply talking to someone and being listened to by itself has some measurable benefit for most people, particularly for things like depression. But the issues you're describing are more complex, and a skilled therapist doing insight-based work (as opposed to CBT or other brief-therapy protocols) will, over time, be able to help you understand the underlying issues which will, in turn have a major positive effect. But if you resist the process the entire way because you're convinced it won't work... it's going to either be hard to have real success, or it will take a really long time.

So the bottom line is, if you don't think therapy works (which is not the case, if properly engaged in by a skilled therapist, and there's plenty of evidence to back up my point), then why in the world are you wasting (from your perspective) time and money with it?

First, as I said above, I am in your age group. Second, I have a number of friends who range in age from late teens to 80s, and I have business partners who are in their early 20s to mid 30s, so I have a pretty vast range of experience of differing age groups to draw from. And nearly all of my friends are the responsible, professional, non-partying types, whether they're 20 or 80, but none of them have the slightest interest in someone twice (or half) their age, because they are (for the most part) emotionally healthy and understand why it wouldn't work even if they were attracted. Getting along with someone you work with is completely different than being in a relationship with them. I'm happy to work with someone 20 or 80... but I instantly see the differences and why a primary relationship with them would not be healthy. If you also have this background, it escapes me why you don't also see this, unless you're simply blinding yourself to it.

Duh. People in age-gap relationships certainly don't have a monopoly in the unhealthy relationships department. Read here on EC about relationship issues, and you'll see we have a plethora of them among age-concordant people.

However, when you remove the age gap, you remove one of the only all-but-insurmountable hurdles in creating a healthy relationship. If you have two people of similar ages, even if they have enormous self esteem, self worth, communication, and other issues, if they are both willing to actively work on their issues, and stay engaged in that process then they can work on the issues and have a good shot at resolving them. One cannot remove fundamental life-stage differences that amount to different goals, focus, and so forth. But you're not really interested in listening to anything other than a justification to chase guys half your age. I suspect that if I pulled up the perfectly documented journal with a study of 15000 men who'd had successful therapy, you'd find some bullshit reason why it didn't apply to you / wasn't valid / didn't adequately address the issue / etc.

All I'm saying is... it's probably not a very good use of time and money to spend it on therapy if you don't believe in it and aren't willing to do the work required of good therapy.

Yes, I think it's an "agree to disagree" thing, and it's certainly your life to live, so go live it. Just don't expect EC as a community to be helpful in finding relationships with people half your age that are likely to cause even more psychological damage to the younger person than they already have if they're attracted to someone your age in the first place.

 

Merlin,

You know, it's really interesting that as your arguments are getting more effectively shot down by a combination of a bunch of people here, your response is to start personally attacking the people making the comments. But that's the most common tactic of people with weak logic who are running out of arguments, so I'm honestly not surprised. And for someone who claims to know what good science is, and to be able to evaluate it... you certainly aren't doing a good job of refuting any of the arguments people here are making, other than by pulling stuff out of your ass.

Just for reference... I've never been attracted to people older or younger than myself, nor do I have any other personal stake or history that's affecting my comments. I have had a lot of therapy (as well as having some counseling training, though I am not a licensed therapist, and do not work in that capacity), and I have worked, both personally and professionally, with therapists in a professional setting, and so my knowledge in this particular area is fairly decent compared to most non-professionals. So your off-base (and off-topic) insinuations that I'm addressing this issue with you because of some sort of countertransference issue is completely groundless. The main reason I have a problem with older/younger relationships, and particularly for people like you seeking to take advantage of younger people, is that they nearly always end up royally fucking up the young people who get involved with them. The young people frequently end up feeling used, gross, ashamed, and often their self-esteem and sense of independence is even further damaged than it was in the first place, simply because a healthy person of that age is not going to be attracted to someone old enough to be their father.

So then you say that maybe you'll have to accept, essentially "damaged goods." Well that's really nice. You're going to take someone who's already really messed up (because that's all that's going to be attracted to someone twice their age), and mess them up further for your own selfish interests. I guess that's OK with you.

As far as justifying why therapy would likely work for you, if you were to go into it with an open mind... it's not unsubstantiated. The methodology is a complicated interaction of different elements, filters, experiences, and other issues you have that have developed through your life experiences, and unlike hardwired sexual orientation, there's no data to indicate that age preferences (other than, arguably, pedophilia, according to some research, but in any case, I don't think is your issue) have any hardwired components to them.

I and a number of other posters have already touched on many of the common elements that such therapy would address but your responses consist of basically just pulling stuff out of your ass ("convincing young people to stick with people their own age" is not a psychotherapeutic technique, and no ethical therapist would take that approach) and it's clear that you're trying to bullshit your way through arguing why psychotherapy would be ineffective, without really understanding what's involved.

If you actually understood insight-based therapy, you'd understand where the insights are coming from (yourself, encouraged through the support of the therapist) and the process by which those insights arise (exploring the experiences that have shaped the filters, erroneous beliefs, and other factors that have shaped your current beliefs.) And yes, it largely doesn't matter if the belief is a day old or 50 years old... it is quite possible to change it with insight-based work. The length of time varies, but good results for insight-based therapy seem to typically take 6 months to 1-1/2 years with a good therapist and a willing client. Unfortunately, it seems clear you aren't even slightly interested or open to the idea you can change -- which seems to be a near-complete 180 from the position you took in the beginning of the thread (which is, in itself, interesting), so for you, it's highly probable that it won't work, and will be a waste.

As for "buying" a boyfriend... sorry, but that's what it is. Why on God's green earth do you think someone young and attractive would be interested in someone old enough to be his dad? Sorry to delude you, but no matter how charming and delightful your personality is, or how many friends you have in their 20s... none of them have fantasies of jumping into bed with you. So yes, what you're going to end up with is "love" that's bought and paid for, whether through buying them gifts, dinners, trips, and other things they couldn't afford, or by taking care of their need for the dad they never had, or having someone to "take care of them" (and not in a healthy way.) Sorry, but likely you're going to end up with someone who will tolerate sex with you in exchange for whatever they get. With near certainty, it won't be true love, and it won't be healthy.

So if you're going to refuse the idea that you could be helped to find attraction to someone closer to your age, you might as well own what you're going to be going after, because dressing it up by another name isn't going to change what it fundamentally is. Call it what you like, claim the psychotherapy profession is unfairly labeling something inappropriately, but any intergenerational romantic relationship is going to end up with father/son dynamics in it, and essentially some sort of value in exchange for companionship. Of the people I know who are or have been in intergenerational relationships, whether they are the younger or the older one in it, that's pretty much acknowledged by both parties. Sad and fucked up, but that's what it is.

Actually, having worked in various capacities with a number of young people who have been in relationships with much older guys, I can't think of a single one of those relationships that was emotionally healthy, and none of them lasted very long. Do long-term age-disparate relationships exist? Maybe. But if so, my (pulled out of my ass) guess would be 1 in 1000. Add to that your ridiculously detailed and picky standards and... like I said, you're looking for a unicorn.

Also, it's pretty fucked up to say that you'll take the best years of someone's life, and when you die, they'll still be in their 40s and can start over. The point is, when you die, assuming you manage to find someone who will stay with you for 20+ years (which you won't, not if they're half your age), they'll be really messed up emotionally, because they've been in an unhealthy relationship forever. Bottom line is, what you're talking about is unbelievably self centered. But it's a free world, there are plenty of self-centered people out there, so, as I said above... have at it.

 

There's a big difference between calling a behavior or proposed action "fucked up" or "selfish" and calling a person one of those things. The former, according to all reputable researchers and clinicians, is focused on guilt, which is positive to psyche development and encourages positive change. The latter is shaming, which doesn't help anyone and promotes poor self esteem. If you took it as a personal attack (you're a fundamentally bad person) instead of a statement about behavior (That behavior/action is messed up), then I apologize because that was not my intent.

But why bother if you've already convinced yourself it isn't going to work? I can tell you, without question, of anecdotal data from therapists I've spoken to that it definitely works, in both directions. I have not taken the time to do an exhaustive literature search (and, actually, am more inclined to do so now so I'll be better equipped the next time we have someone making the same argument) but am glad you're doing so.

The bottom line here is, there's clinical experience of therapists I've known and worked with, and l have definitely seen evidence in the literature as well (though I don't have the citations handy... I will look for them though), that it is possible to change. Does it work 100%? Certainly not; nothing does. But that alone, for anyone with the desire to change, makes it worth the effort, provided one is remotely emotionally healthy enough, and open minded enough, to want to try, because no one emotionally healthy wants to potentially harm another person for their own emotional gratification. It's unclear whether this is the case for you, based on the resistance you've shown so far.

Here's where there's really defective thinking going on, where therapy would be of great help, if you believed in it. The research on shame is actually pretty solid; shame stands in the way of ability to love oneself, in the way of connection and a sense of belonging, and a sense that we're worthy of love. It also stands in the way of vulnerability, which is core to pretty much everything involved in living a healthy life (courage, authenticity, creativity, etc.) And it's impossible to not have shame when one is closeted.

I know that the closet might seem like a good option, but it really isn't. I'm not having these endless conversations because I dislike you, or think you're a bad person. As I said earlier in the conversation, when you are in the haze of depression, it can seem like there are no options. And clearly you're not getting appropriate treatment if you're taking a maximum dosage of an SSRI and it isn't working. This whole conversation has been (at least from my side) focused on convincing you there are options that stand a good chance of working, if you're willing to be openminded and approach them with a positive attitude. A lot of people have been in your situation (both the depression and the difficulty with being attracted to someone their own age.) Many of them have been helped. I know therapists who have been successful in this regard.

You can argue why it won't be successful for you, because you haven't seen clinical studies that suit your standard for academic vigor, and either stay closeted or search for something likely unattainable, or you can approach the situation with openmindedness, hope and belief that you can end up in a happy and emotionally healthy relationship, and dive in full bore and do your best to be one of those people who benefit tremendously from therapy and end up living a happy life. I'd love nothing more than to see you happy.