Expose myself......

Hi RainbowMan,

There are certainly major differences in many facets between older and younger men, and you're probably right that many of such relationships are doomed to fail in the end because of that, but as with everything in life, I do believe that in specific cases it might work. Some have used the work "chemistry" and I think that is probably the key element here. If two people get along, share interests and have an open mind for what the other likes or not, and feel attracted to each other for not just physical reasons, I think there is hope for such a relationship. But, I'm preaching to the converted no doubt ;-).

---------- Post added 28th Jul 2013 at 01:27 PM ----------

Hi KyleD,

I'm looking for many qualities in a man. He has to be intelligent, a sense of humour, open minded and liberal, non-religious, slim, no to limited amount of body hair (and certainly not at his back), young in mind and hart, and not too muscular or too small (under 1.70 m). I know I'm probably very picky and someone might say, beggars are no choosers, but you know what, I am prepared to wait for someone like that and I've seen a few that fit most of this profile (including my big crush) but they all tend to be straight (which is interesting, because somebody (or was it in a song) once said "why are all the cute boys gay?").

 

Hi Luthan & Chip,

Thanks for the advice and I do pay attention to what you have to say and as I said, will bring this up to my therapist, so if I seem to just be making excuses and not listening, my apologies. Also, just to be clear, I do form good relationships with men of my age (in fact, with men of all ages) both professionally and socially. Where the problem indeed starts is whether I see myself in a deeper more intimate relationship with men of my age. You both say, you have to accept that nobody is perfect and accept people's flaws and go from there; I need to form an emotional bond, experience all the good things of this person's personality etc. And yes, I see that and I'm willing to have such a bond (in fact, to some extent I have that with a colleague who is gay and even a bit older than me), but, I don't see myself (to put it blunt) having sex with a person if they don't fit the profile I indicated in a previous message. You will say, therapy might change my turn ons, and who knows that may be possible (again, I seriously doubt that as the therapist also indicated in his reply to the first letter writer). I should also say that I'm not looking for the 'perfect' person, just a person who fits my needs. The person I have a major crush on now may not be perfect for other people, but he is for me (except he is not gay :-(. And, I do see many guys (I admit, younger ones) who fit my profile, so I'm not looking for a needle in a haystack or an illusion. Also, my needs are not just based on criteria as cuteness or age. In fact, if there is no intellectual connection in the first place, age nor cuteness will be that relevant.
Luthan, you said if I'm willing to compromise. Yes, and I did over the years. As I mentioned, I used to be very strict about body hair (and this is just an example). Now, I find myself far more tolerant for guys who have many features I like but some chest hair or even a goatee. Ten years ago, that would have been a major put off (shallow? perhaps). Now, if other features are there, it doesn't bother me. So, I have been testing and expanding my boundaries (back hair and overweight is where I draw the line, sorry ;-). Also, if a guy is 40 and fits my profile (give or take!), I'm sure I will be tempted to explore this further. I'm just saying, except for one person who was 35+ (not 40 yet I think), I never met such a person in my life. Maybe I'll meet him tomorrow, and I'm happy to see where that would go if there is mutual interest.
Finally, I realize that in the end, I could be fooling myself, and my obsession (if you like) with certain types of men (for intimate relationships, not for general bonding!) is too strict and needs work (with professional help). As I said, I will discuss this with my therapist, I am willing to give this a try (not sure how though) when I see someone who at least initially seems an interesting person of my age but what would really help me if someone in the EC community has experienced a similar issue (falling for typically younger men) and somehow (with or without therapy) found himself being able to relate (and get intimate) with a man or men of his own age and why he thinks he was able to get to that point. If you would be willing to share that story, I would be most grateful.

Just a final comment if I may. It seems that when you (Luthan and Chip) argue that an honest relationship should not be based on shallow aspects of age and appearance, you do make the strong assumption that all young men who develop a relationship with older men can only do this because of unhealthy motives (looking for financial or emotional support). Why don't you assume that some young men (not many presumably) actually have that commitment to older men exactly because they do not care about appearance or age, but for all the other aspects in older men you both seem to emphasize as being more important. I'm not using this as a justification for me, just a question about the consistency of the reasoning and the automaticity of assuming that a relationship with a large age-difference is by definition unhealthy. Unhealthy by whose standards?

 

Thanks Pat for your input on this. I like the "there's someone for everyone" and no worries, I'm not looking for a hook up. Maturity is important and the young guys I've been interacting with (not sexually) all have that intellectual and mature personality I go for. That is first and foremost. If they have the other features I like that turn me on and show a real interest in me as a person, there is potential. Do I expect such a relationship to be easy? Hell no. Do I expect a relationship with a men of my age easy? No, because people of my age are also very much fixed in their ways and find it harder to compromise. In the end, I strongly belief if two people share interests, feelings and attraction with a strong compatibility in personality, age is not so relevant anymore. So, yes, your input definitely helped and in your case, I have no question about your maturity ;-) (unlike some guys I know of my age)

 

Thanks everyone. I get the message loud and clear. Many of the things you bring forward have been going through my head and my rationale part agrees with many of these points. My emotional part is still lagging though. Problem is that if I want to talk 50+ stuff (which in general I don't) I have my wife who is very good at that and she also looks better than 98% of 50+ men I've seen and with her I can be intimate, not with 50+ men (and sorry, Chip I still don't share your confidence in therapy re this issue unless you can show me the scientific studies that provide the evidence; haven't found them yet). So, I guess what I'm saying is that if all gay young men who want to date someone of my age are either devious or mentally disturbed (for the moment assuming this is an actual fact), and I would need to be reconditioned by a therapist to prefer men of my age (for the moment assuming that would actually work), I rather go back into my closet and stay married (if my wife still wants me). Re my stringent criteria, as I indicated they are not really that stringent as I see young men fitting those criteria (which are only partly based on appearance btw) every single day and no doubt, there may be several 30+ persons fitting those as well (no problem). A 50+ person however, not so likely, especially when it comes to being overweight and too much hair in the wrong places. That's not a criticism, just a simple fact of life. Would I be willing to wait for a person that touches the right cords with me? You bet. Would I compromise on some of these (for me) essential features just so I won't be lonely? Not likely. Oh, and I delisted from the dating sites, because I agree that not posting a picture is not fair to others.
Before you all start denouncing me as a messed up hard-nosed idiot, let me reiterate I'm willing to try things like talking to my therapist about these issues and also to visit support groups of gay men (probably including some of my age). I do understand your objections and comments, just not too sure about the "solutions".

 

Hi Skiff,

I'm afraid you misinterpreted my words. Let me try to be clear(er). I want and have intellectual conversations all the time (its also part of my job) with men and women of all ages. That is not the issue. When I mention 50+ stuff I was picking up on Chip's argument that younger and older men (gay or not) have a different focus in life. So, for older men of my age, that focus is often on retirement, pension plans, stocks, health issues etc. Those topics don't interest me that much. Other topics (science, history, religion, art etc.) that do interest me I can discuss with many people who indeed need to have some educational background. I'm not looking for "Jersey Shore" (whatever that is, I don't watch tv). In my experience, I can have those intelligent and deep conversations with younger and older men. In fact, many of the young men I interact with have a wide range of interests, good insights, and are not of the kind that is portrayed in some of the posts under this section. This experience includes straight and gay young men. So, if you ask, can I develop an intellectual and emotional relationship with older men? Yes, I can and do and the same with young(er) men. Now, when you ask, can you develop a sexual relationship with older men? No, I don't unless they have the features that turn me on (see earlier posts) and perhaps such older men do exist, I'm just (keep) saying, I never met them in my entire life so far (and I do try to be open-minded believe it or not). The likelihood of finding the features that turn me on is greater (by far) in younger men. Now, is that sick? Perhaps. Does that need mental reprogramming. Maybe, but again, I don't share the optimism that Chip and others seem to have in this respect (and again, nor do I see/find the evidence for that so far). If I find a younger man who is interested in building a relationship with me but perhaps based on "daddy" issues, I rather prefer helping that young man along in his life and career than having a relationship with an older man who eventually needs a partner who becomes more like a nurse to help with all the health issue that will develop sooner or later. Chip talks about healthy and balanced relationships. I think that is a noble but somewhat quasi-therapeutic utopia in a strict sense (hence the fact that 2/3 of hetero relationships end up in divorce and I don't know how many relationships between gay men and/or women, including the ones who are of the same age). People are people and bring their own interests and personality to a relationship. That is a misbalance to begin with and that's why love (and lust?) needs to be there to overcome the initial problems and provide some bonding to hopefully find a way to compromise (another misbalance) and deal with the incompatibilities and strengthen the compatibilities. Some succeed, many fail as the statistics show and if anyone has statistics on how many relationships that were bound to fail and went into therapy and succeeded to last for at least 5 years afterwards, I'd be very interested.
Back to the issue at hand. A relationship between a younger and older person obviously has many more incompatibilities (I'm not dumb, I realize that) but there are also compatibilities that can be explored (and to which I'm attracted). If that relationship is only based on money (gold diggers), no it won't last (same goes for old men and young girls). If a young person needs an older person to find some balance in his life, I don't see harm in that and the older person may be able to help (perhaps better than a therapist) based on his experience and other aspects that do come with age (the old Greeks even had this as a model in their society, but no please, let's not go there). Yes, the older person may die and leave the younger person alone, but is that really worse than when two older persons are together and one dies and the other one is left behind? The younger person likely still has a life ahead and many opportunities to find a new partner, the older one not so much. OK, I stop here because most of you probably don't agree and that's fine. We can differ in opinion in this matter. I just wish there was more input from EC members who have direct experience (positive and/or negative) in living in a relationship with a big age difference.

 

Thank you, Skiff. I feel relieved I was able to clarify myself better this time and your support is encouraging. I haven't given up yet, no way

 

Yes, in some ways the gay dating scene can be quite harsh. My problem is that I have not enough weight, so I look too skinny for some who prefer a more muscular appearance. But, I'll work on that ;-)