The benefits of being bi

You'd rather get sperm from an anonymous donor who could be a terrible human being than someone you know personally, if given the two options? Supposing you are able to get a medical history from your friend, obviously? That's a rhetorical question. I know there are reasons for going with donated sperm, particularly because the legal and social infrastructure for the kind of relationship I brought up don't really exist and only a few people do it.

I don't see why this provokes such a knee-jerk response. Legally there are complications, sure. You could've taken that route if you're trying to say that nobody should ever do this, and that it shouldn't count as a viable option that allows gay men to reproduce.

The evolution angle was a weak angle to take though. It is the best option available for the women (and obviously one of the few limited options for the men), from a genetic standpoint.
-It is the only way they can raise 2 kids together, while also each having 2 biological children.
-If they raised all 4 that would strain their resources more.
-If they had 1 child each... then obviously they're having half as many kids, passing on less of their genes. Many gay women do this, but from an 'evolutionary standpoint' it is worse than having 2. Is it more comfortable to give birth to only 1 kid? Absolutely. Evolution and comfort are not the same thing.

If the whole human race turned gay tomorrow there would be a few years of chaos, but inevitably we'd end doing something like this to survive as a species.

It's a historical artifact. Bisexuals were deliberately kicked out of the earliest gay rights organizations, and the queer community has a long history of balkanization. Think about it. Lesbians are already gay, so why do they get an 'L' in the 'LGBT'? The G should already cover them. That acronym is the result of stubborn political forces. Identity politics have unfortunately driven the community into separate teams.

 

EDIT: Firstly, the bolded text I wrote in my original quote. I know my sperm won't "stop working". Which leads me to the complications.

I'm well aware of the complications that will arise. I want my own biological children and I've researched extensively about it. Is it more complicated then finding two lesbians and splitting the kids? Hell yes (first of all, I wouldn't surrender any of kids. Also, as Ianthe pointed out, good luck to me finding lesbians that want to do that). Either I need to come into a lot of money or have an extremely good friend who would be willing to carry my babies, pay all the costs, then surrender the baby to me and my future husband.
Don't even get me started on the complications of me having a kid. This is one subject I am so passionate about, I will most likely say things I'll regret (and possibly offend others) and it is by FAR the most important thing I will stand for. I've looked into having kids, and HELL. YES. It's more complicated than that.

EDIT 2: I realize my post might sound argumentative or rude, or like I'm personally attacking you, Spatula. I'm not, and I apologize if I come off as rude. It's just as I said, I'm extremely passionate about having my own kids and it's frustrating that I can't just create a baby the typical way.

King x

 

Isn't fluid sexuality fun!? :lol:

I get you, though. I do the same thing, to some extent. I could always go either way and date a girl or guy if I found one I liked, but there are times when I specifically will want a girl or want a guy.

As for why bisexuals feel the need to be split, I don't think we do. We just have different things to bitch about . Everybody is discriminated against, yes, but if you want to be that broad, all people experience discrimination for something. Gays and lesbians are discriminated against differently than bisexuals are, and there are different degrees of discrimination. As a gay person, you can fully understand how awful it is to hear somebody say, "What you're doing is a choice. It isn't real. You're just confused. What you're doing is wrong." but you can only imagine how awful it is to have somebody actually accept homosexuality and still tell you "What you're doing is a choice. You just can't make up your mind. Your sexuality isn't legitimate. You're confused. You're wrong." Our dating pool might be bigger, but it doesn't make it suck any less when you flirt with a lesbian and then tell her you're a bisexual and she backs off because she doesn't want to date bisexuals. I know many a girl who won't date a bisexual guy either once she finds out he's into guys as well.

You know what? Girls just need to stop being so bloody insecure :icon_mad: :lol:. In conclusion, gays, lesbians, and bisexuals have similarities that bring us together, but we also have differences. It's not a big deal. Let us have them!

Oh, and on the biological children thing, I don't envy gays and lesbians for having to figure that out =/. My younger brother (who is gay) is so lucky to have 4 older sisters because between the 4 of us, it's pretty likely that he'll get to have biological children with his future partner. I know that if I lived near enough to him and had the opportunity to do it, I'd be honored to be the one who carries his child and lets him realize that dream. It's not an easy situation for those without that opportunity.

 

If you had to choose, would you rather never have kids, or split your custody? Ianthe is right that many lesbians are not interested. But, co-parenting is becoming increasingly common. Note that although there are less lesbians than gay men, there are more bisexual women, and many end up in same-sex relationships. There are also straight women who never found the right guy, who get into the community.

 

Pretty much the rest of this blurb will be about "from an evolutionary standpoint", so I can stop repeating it. I'll also try avoiding jargon if possible.

Strictly speaking, the whole idea of the evolutionary view is to pass on your genes successfully. It is not favourable in any sense of the word to be gay in the first place. Why would you deliberately be attracted to someone who gives you a 0% chance of passing on your own genes? It's illogical. I'd theorize more on why there is a supposed "gay gene" in the first place, but we haven't covered that in my class yet and won't until Thursday, so consequently I don't want to say anything I'm not fairly confident in my knowledge about.

Beyond that, assuming you are gay and having children, it's still not a good idea. It "costs" way more for a woman to have a child than a man, in the sense of comparing the availability of eggs vs. sperm. For a woman to have a child (which she's limited in the number she can possibly have anyway) and then carry it around for 9 months sharing her personal resources with it only to give it away at the end with no chance of helping to raise it is stupid. Sure, she gets a child, but no ability to ensure it thrives.

Similarly, for the man, he helps to create 2 children that he has no say in raising. In the children he keeps, he also loses out on other important things that only the mother could provide, like breastfeeding (I know this can be substituted for modern-day, but still).

Right, so... what does being excluded previously have to do with purposely segregating yourselves now? Identity politics - let's be serious here, will never be acknowledged as a "serious" form of politics even close to the same way other things like race and religion will be. These politics only go so far as how we, the members struggling with our identity, choose to acknowledge it. There is no overbearing group rallying for the separation of the L, G, B, and T in LGBT. It's a mentality issue, and I have no idea what dictates this seeming "need" for the bi community to distinguish themselves from everyone else.

Even here on EC, you'll notice it more often in bi threads than other gay threads that the creators want input specifically from bi people. I don't understand it. Sure, everyone wants to hear from someone who can directly relate, but it almost implies that if you're not bi, you won't understand. The same way I argued before on the forum changes how coming-out sections shouldn't be divided by age, I'll argue that there's no need for us to segregate our community. We all have different struggles, yes, but we share the same story of searching for our identities and fighting for our place in this world.

EDIT: I know my original post came off aggressive, and I didn't necessarily mean it that way (I blame it on being hot and having a headache). But my message still stands; I really don't understand this perceived (on my part) need for separation of the bi community. I'm not arguing it necessarily doesn't have to happen, but am looking for someone on the other side to maybe enlighten me.

 

Giraffes are mostly gay, at least behaviorally. Over 90% of the sex they have is gay sex. But that's the key - they still have straight sex some of the time. Homosexuality only becomes detrimental to survival when you bring socially constructed institutions like monogamy into the mix, or when it is strong enough to completely prevent all opposite-sex shenanigans.

I think it's obvious why there are gay genes. They aren't really 'gay genes', but rather, genes for an attraction to one sex. Every human must carry a full set of genes for male and female attraction, because their offspring could be either male or female and would need the appropriate genes to develop the correct attraction. If you're male, the gene for female attraction turns on, and if you're female, the gene for male attraction turns on. When you were a child, both genes were turned off, of course.

We know that identical twins can have different sexualities, so I'm thinking the mechanism for activating the switch is epigenetic, and it probably relies on sex hormones to turn on. Perhaps an infection or an exposure to a particular chemical early in development causes the switch to malfunction. Perhaps a mutation in the gene could cause it to turn on when it shouldn't as well. It has to be something that has some hereditary strength, but isn't fully deterministic. Some other unrelated pathway might strip off the inhibitors and turn on both sets of genes in bisexuals. Perhaps the genes can even turn on at different times.

Pushing for research is the main one, at this point. Lots of labs are researching homosexuality. Almost nobody researches bisexuality. We're not pushing for separation, on the contrary. We want to just be one big gay happy family with you guys. It's just that the past 20 years have shown that if we don't toot our own horn a bit in the media and on the internet, nobody else is going to do it for us. Going out into the world and gaying things up instead of hiding behind straight relationships helps too.

Nah you're cool.

 

I would argue that a lot of threads on EC are looking from advice from a specific section of the EC community. Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, but I haven't really noticed any particular group doing this more than othere. It's not that any specific sub-category of LGBT community is trying to split themselves off from the rest, but for some threads it just seems to make sense to ask for help from people who are coming from exactly the same place as you. That doesn't even imply that all of these threads are orientation specific either: relationship questions are mainly aimed at people who have some experience of being in a relationship, sex questions tend to be gender specific, etc.. That doesn't mean that input from everyone on EC isn't welcome though and it doesn't mean that we can't all understand each other. A lot of us on EC aren't out at all and have never actually talked to anyone in real life about this stuff before. EC is a bit of a pressure valve, a place where you can talk about how you feel. If everyone in your life thinks you are straight, it is a relief to be in a place where you can talk about your same sex feelings. If you are bi, it is a relief to find a place where you can talk about your feelings for both sexes. Sometimes, you really need to know that there is someone out there who feels exactly the same way as you. And sometimes you really need to seek out and talk to that person, which in my opinion is why those types of threads get made.
EC and the LGBT community should be one big inclusive group. We have so many things in common, and the fact that we have differences too should not be devisive.

As an advantage of being bi, I would agree with this, mostly. However, that only applies if the bisexual person in question happens to fall in love with someone of the opposite sex. There are different levels of bisexuality, not everyone falls exactly in the middle, and if someone leans more towards the same sex than the opposite sex, then it is likely that having children could get complicated, even if the person is bi.

 

@Spatula Fair enough. I don't know, I guess I felt it makes more sense for us to all inclusively be fighting for our "rights" or "stance" or whatever together. The way I see it, separating ourselves doesn't really strengthen any cause much, but I guess that's an issue of opinion.

@Catkin It's probably more likely that I've been paying too much attention; to be honest, I've been thinking the same few thoughts the last few days and was considering making a thread on it... this thread just happened to come up first. I agree wholeheartedly that people love to feel like other people can just relate. I don't really know what else to say without feeling like I'm just repeating myself for the sake of argument, but I do understand what you mean.

 

Honestly, that's a difficult question to answer. It depends on the person I end up with, our financial situation, things like that. Because I'd want my children to have as normal of an upbringing as possible, which doesn't include 4 parents. It's complicated.

King x

 

This entire debate is why I always believed child-rearing is best done by opposite-sex couples. There are so many ethical and psychological questions surrounding gay parenting that it's not even worth bothering with, to be quite frank.

I personally will not choose to raise children if I enter into a long-term same-sex relationship. You can't have biological children for obvious reasons, at least not without completely ridiculous lab tricks, and adoption centers are clogged with unfortunately rejected children struggling with severe behavioral problems. Another issue that has bothered me for quite some time is that I just don't believe gay people are fit to be the best kind of parents, any more than single mothers or fathers. Evolutionarily, wouldn't you agree that one mother and one father is the most optimal arrangement any child could have, especially considering they're the ones who can actually bear children together? The research on gay parenting is so clouded due to a cultural tug-of-war between religious mentalcases and social justice mentalcases, that you can't come to any sort of reasonable conclusion as to what's best for the children and what's not. Studies favoring gay parenting are strongly tinged with a social justice agenda and completely unbiased studies disfavoring gay parenting are immediately attacked and dismissed as having a religious agenda. It's very frustrating coming from someone educated in the sciences, a field which is supposed to be free of any bias. The only thing we can be sure of is that one mother and one father is best for children, removing all other factors, because they're the ones that actually produce them.

My frank opinion on this? I personally believe the entire issue of gay parenting is a shoe-horning of heterosexual values into the gay community, an analogue to the nonsensical feminist notion that women are in every ways the same as men. No, they're not, and we're not the same as heterosexuals. What we are equal in, is in dignity. There is no indignity in not being built to raise children anymore than there is no indignity in being best as a mother and a homemaker. There are so many other things you can do to contribute to society besides raising children, especially when the world is struggling to contain a population boom as it is. Gay couples are called to enrich their community in so many other ways; there is no indignation in being someone who is better "built" to be these things.

 

Well that's probably the biggest stab I'll ever get.
I'm sure I'll be a great father, thank you.

King.

 

Evolutionarily, at least from what I understand, a mother and father was the best arrangement because, like you said, they're the ones who actually produce the child. The man needs the woman to actually produce his offspring, and the woman needs the man to provide resources and protection for the offspring once it's born.

That being said, "resources and protection" isn't as relevant in modern society, nor is the ability for a woman to actually carry the child. Is it still ideal? Probably. But I don't think an evolutionary argument necessarily works here.

I'm not sure whether I agree or not, but that was well put.

 

I would argue that there are hard things about being bisexual. And a bisexual person is not necessarily going to end up with the opposite sex so they may not be able to have biological children. Bisexual people also deal with prejudice within both the straight and gay community. They deal with bierasure and the like. And if a bisexual person ends up with the same sex, it won't be any easier for the bisexual person than for the gay person.

I wouldn't be interested in having 4 kids with a gay couple and then splitting them. First of all, ouch. That would hurt a lot and I would not put my wife or myself through all of that. 4 kids?!? :eek: Second, I don't want to get sperm from a friend. I think it would be awkward and complicated. Getting sperm from elsewhere seems less tricky. I don't want anyone else to have claim on my future kids besides me and my future spouse.

I disagree as I believe gay people can be very good parents. I also disagree that single mothers or fathers are somehow less effective as parents. Children raised in single parent or gay families can be just as well adjusted as children from a straight two parent family. I do plan on having kids one day and I don't think gay people are any less "fit" to be parents than straight people. There are straight people that can't have babies through sex because they are infertile. I don't think that makes them any less fit to have babies. Adoption, artificial insemination, and surrogacy are all viable options that are no less fit than having a child through heterosexual intercourse.

---------- Post added 7th Jul 2012 at 01:31 PM ----------

Also, women and men are not biologically the same but they are both able to raise children. I'm not sure how that even comes into play.

---------- Post added 7th Jul 2012 at 01:38 PM ----------

But back on to the main topic, bisexuals do deal with prejudice.

 

I whole heartedly disagree. I believe child-rearing is best done by smart couples, and it pains me to see so many well-educated intellectuals who could potentially be the nicest, most open-minded parents ever, making no attempt to raise kids while hardcore christian evangelicals with a 12-year-old's understanding of morality keep churning them out. The concept of the nuclear family is arbitrary, and there are just as many ethical and psychological questions surrounding our current socially-constructed idea of relationships and families.

If I ended up in a same-sex relationship I would *at least* adopt, and I would certainly make an attempt to more than that, if I have the chance.

 

You can be frank all you want, but to be frank your opinion is full of bullshit. You are basically just going on feeling and ignoring all the evidence that homosexual couples are just as fit to be parents as hetero couples. I love how you wrote off all adopted children as emotionally scarred as well, that was lovely.

 

I personally strongly believe in the last one! It shouldn't matter what race color gender or size people are, we're all the same on the inside, and capable of love.
I agree with all for those of course, just that one is my favorite.
And also, I think another good thing about being bi, is that you're not limited. lol