LGBT News Northern Ireland bakery guilty of discrimination

:roflmao: keep an open mind :roflmao:

 

If this does play out poorly in Northern Ireland or the Republic then that reflects poorly on Irish society on both sides of the border, not on the couple in question here or any other couple or person that challenges this kind of behaviour.

The bakery knew what the law was, decided they were above it because Jesus and were rightly punished for it. Anti LGBTI discrimination is not cricket and waving around a bible while you're doing it does not make it magically acceptable.

 

If making a same sex wedding cake goes against your religious beliefs because that'd be you participating in a same sex wedding, why wouldn't a Christian weapons shop owner be participating in a murder if they sell a weapon to a person who then uses it to murder someone? People citing religious beliefs to discriminate against LGBTQ people are cherry picking, and I don't think they should be able to cite religious beliefs to discriminate against someone unless they also refuse to service divorcees, unwed teenage mothers, and also believe their beliefs allow them to use slave labour and to be misogynistic in their business practises (not taking orders from women).

There's a legal precedent for this ruling, and if you disagree with that, try to get rid of bills such as the UK Human Rights Act and Equality Acts.

 

Wow. This is a pretty good way to look at it actually. Although I am still on the fence in some aspects.

 

There is absolutely no denying that their argument is ridiculous and ridiculously inconsistent. As I've stated I like to know people who operate businesses like that so I know where no to go-the problem comes when we start to make it legally mandatory for someone to serve everyone as I've witnessed that as an owner/manager multiple times and no well where that harm can fall to.

On Sept 11, 2001 I was operating a restaurant-as news broke of the attack people filled into our establishment. When the second plane hit a group of Muslim students who had yet to order stood up and clapped they didn't yell or holler or get loud but they stood in unison and clapped - the server refused to serve them, I asked them to leave. Now clearly it wasn't because of their religion it was because what they'd done. It certainly was perceived by them as because of their religion. The thought that I could've been sued for that and lost scares me.

I've had the situation multiple times with people who are mentally ill where I've refused service, asked them to leave as their was concern for other customers and the over all scene that was being made.

I opened a new take out shop a few years ago. Our biggest turn out by far was during pride week a few years ago. For the first few days everything was incredible the customers were mostly from out of town many coming multiple times through the weekend each time bringing more friends with them. While some clearly intoxicated they were for the most part polite, respectful and gracious. As the weekend winded down and the city emptied so did the crowd, late on the last Sunday I had ten people in line mostly town regulars (all that I knew were straight) a drunken 20 year old came from the pride festivities raving about how he'd heard about us he, proceeded to try to cut the line, was rude and touchy with other customers I asked him politely to behave numerous times after probably the seventh I had him leave. Where he then stood out front and screamed about me being "homophobic".

Now fine some of that comes with operating a business and perhaps any and all of them would've been won by me if I was taken to court over them but as someone who has been in court for other business related issues financially I never would've survived. Even if I did survive it would've taken a huge toll on me and a situation where I would've had to let go of staff. I pay $300 for a lawyer right now and while I pay starting employees (depending on the business) higher then minimum wage but even then one hour of my lawyer fees is about twenty hours of labour I'd pay staff to think that I'd put my entire business at risk-and the jobs of many others by not being able to dictate who for whatever reason I decide to sell my non-essential products to.

 

the reality is that I don't live in Ireland and have no business stepping in with comments on how things are handled there.
If they stepped outside of the law, then that's on them. period.
I am only really familiar with the U.S and its constitution and for the government to dictate how religion has to serve the gay community would be a violation of church and state, no less than if the church went in and somehow forced the government to shun homosexuals.
different country, different rules.
I tend to like it here better, we get to know right out who our enemies and who our allies are in this war for acceptance and understanding.
I cant wait for the day that I can say at a party that the guy next to me is my date and have it looked at exactly the same as if it was a female standing next to me.
Im 56 years old, (my brain is still 25) I doubt I will live to see the day that we are totally accepted. but then, look at how far we have come from the 70s.

 

A bakery should have the freedom to refuse service if it violates their religion. For example, baking a wedding cake for a gay couple would definitely be against their religion since they don't believe any gay couple should be marrying anyways, and that marriage should be reserved for straight couples. This freedom should extend to ministers and churches as well. Is that unloving of them to do so? I think yes. But I also believe everyone should have their religious freedoms protected. Especially since in this situation there are no victims. No cake for your wedding? Oh well, no one was hurt.

What should happen is for gay couples and activists to let others know which businesses are traditional/homophobic, so that over time, if people want to take their business elsewhere they could. Eventually those businesses will either have to close shop or change to stay in business. All of it would be peaceful boycotting and protesting, not whining to the government to force businesses to do anything that violates their beliefs.

 

I can see the good and bad in this outcome, but I have to admit, I'm sick and tired of hearing about this story. I live in Northern Ireland and keep up the date with the news, and this gay cake fiasco has been one of the most infuriating of the year. Everybody with a Facebook account has coughed up an opinion on the subject, which usually leads to arguments, which leads to hateful comments, etc. The piece of shit politicians in this country have been spouting their usual bile - claiming that 'gay rights seem to be more important than Christian rights', trying to draw up discriminatory legislation to protect religious beliefs in the work place, and basically being all round assholes about it.

It's very, very annoying stuff.

The man who brought Ashers to court, Gareth Lee, has been getting flack because some people think he targeted the company on purpose to create a stir. I think this argument is rubbish - I walk past the Ashers in Belfast most days and there's no glowing cross on the window or any indication that it is a so-called 'Christian bakery'. It's a bakery. Full-stop. It doesn't hold any beliefs and the people who own it should leave theirs at the door when they decided to open business to the public.

I'm happy that this was the outcome of the court case but at the same time, I'm wary. We have enough 'Christian persecution' and 'gay agenda' bullshit here in Northern Ireland without this adding fuel to the fire. Especially with the referendum on gay marriage happening in the South and the scandals during the recent election. It's raised a lot of very ignorant, ugly attitudes.

 

Ultimately equality is a 2 way street, for one group to gain, one has to lose. So the right balance has to be found in order to be fair to both groups. Catholic midwifes are exempt from performing abortions, there is room to accommodate everyone it just has to be found.

 

Those Catholic midwives lost their case. Unless this ruling has changed since and I haven't heard about it.

Catholic midwife abortion ruling

Religious beliefs need to be kept separate from public services and public businesses.

 

Religious institutions should be seen as private so therefore they should not forced to perform abortions. My catholic grandma cried for days after Rove vs. Wade passed so it is emotional issue for catholic and if religious institutions are considered private which they should be they should not be forced to perform them. I agree religion should be be a public issue but if it is a private one the should be allowed to not perform abortions. If they want a abortion they can go to a general abortion clinic. So with that said basically i don't think anyone should be forced to perform something such as serious as abortion because of their understandable religious beliefs. Not that I oppose abortion cause I believe in personal freedom but I also believe in some aspects of religious freedom.

 

The NHS is a public service so your point is moot.

 

Well ok but that' doesn't make any sense. You think with the word "Catholic" it would be a private institution because it is a part of a religious thing. If it is public it should not be referred to any religion. Because a religious type organization having to with catholic midwives should always be private. Weird.

However I think they still have the right to refuse to participate in that situate because midwives are not just for abortion purposes. They can just easily find a midwife who supports abortion or go to a pubic abortion clinic instead. I would hate to see my mother or grandma forced to perform a abortion when they disagree with it. I feel bad for the midwives.

 

They are Catholic women who work for the NHS in the UK and believed they were exempt from their duty of care to certain patients because of religious beliefs. They shouldn't be in their job if they had moral objections to certain parts of it.

Private abortions cost money. Not everyone can afford it and nor should they have to - they're legally obliged to abortion services on the NHS and that shouldn't be comprised because two women put their own beliefs over the health of their patients. And 'get another midwife who supports abortion' doesn't work either. The NHS is stretched enough as it is without some nurses having to take over the duties of others.

 

I hear ya but i do feel more sorry for the catholic nurses.

 

I have sympathy for them of course. But far more for the women getting abortions being treated by them. It's a rough enough time without your nurse being judgmental or obviously not interested in caring for you.

Anyway, we've derailed this thread enough :lol:

 

This comic comes to mind:

 

I do disagree with this legal action. It's one thing to refuse reverse to people because of their sexual orientation. It's another thing to refuse service to people because of the content on the cake.

bahahahahah

 

It honestly never ceases to shock me how many LGBT people will go out of their way to tell other people that it's okay to discriminate against them. There is some serious Stockholm Syndrome-like shit going down here.

If you take out the word "gay" and replace it with any other group of people historically discriminated against, such as women or black folks, and placed them in an identical situation, it is virtually impossible for me to believe that people would still be on board with discrimination. People seem to forget that religion has historically been used to discriminate against black folks and women. The KKK is a Christian group. If a black person went to a bakery owned by a KKK member, asked for a cake, and was refused service--it is impossible for me to believe that people would not be on the side of the consumer. Yet, you throw a gay person in that identical situation, and suddenly it's all about "religious freedom."

Arguments about businesses having religious freedom are complete bullshit. Period. Businesses cannot have a religion, because they are not people. When a business opens it is making an agreement to serve the general public. Gay people are part of that general public. When a business wishes to deny service it must provide a reasonable restriction that applies to everyone equally, and the restriction must be something that everyone can reasonably comply with.

The problem with bakeries is not that they are refusing to make gay wedding cakes, it's the fact that they are agreeing to make straight wedding cakes, and then refusing to make gay wedding cakes. They are offering a service to one group of people, and then denying another group of people that same service. If they didn't make wedding cakes for straight people, then they could refuse to make wedding cakes for gay people, because they could then argue that they don't make wedding cakes.

...but what about the individuals rights, in this case, and not the business? What the employees or owners feel is not relevant. Let's use an example. Let us say that someone is employed in a store where birth control is sold, but they are a Catholic who believes birth control is against the teachings of the Catholic Church. This is a sincerely held religious belief on their part, they have an entire brood of children to back it up and everything, and so they refuse to sell birth control to customers. Is the store owner fully within their rights to fire said employee? Yes. Yet, are their religious beliefs not being trampled by this act, causing them to have restricted access to employment? Yes. However, religious beliefs are a choice, and if you are going to choose to live with certain rules and restrictions then you should not put yourself in situations where you are forced to violate them. In other words, don't seek employment at stores that require you to sell birth control. Society as a whole is not obligated to twist itself into a pretzel to cater to your particular religious fetish or objection. It's your religion, and it's your obligation to go follow it--it is not the requirement of other people to tolerate it, accept it, or be forced to de facto participate in it by having services denied because you disagree with said services.

The same logic applies to the store owner who wants to discriminate against gay people. Simply saying, "it's my religion" is not an excuse. That is not an argument, and every time someone tries to make it they should loose automatically by default. If you want to deny people service all you have to do is provide a reasonable restriction that applies to everyone equally, and the restriction must be something that everyone can reasonably comply with. That's it. It's fair. It's equal.