Is sexuality fixed from birth or does it change later in life?

I was simply saying electric shock therapy was used for a number of things - and might still be used. That doesn't invalidate trying to quit smoking. But it is a false claim as far as i know, that reparative therapies do that now which is what was implied.

Not surpress, they claim to have changed. I take their claims on face value. Some say they still have urges, others say they are completely changed. Since we don't know the causes of sexuality its possible there are many things that cause it and possibly, rarely alter it.

 

The "choice" is often that some young gay person is forced by religious parents to endure a pseudoscientific ordeal that has been shown repeatedly to be ineffective and cruel. Or that some adult who has lived in an intolerant environment has internalised shame and tries desperately and uselessly to change an inherent characteristic.

I don't see it as analogous to gender dysphoria, a recognised condition that arises spontaneously and involuntarily and causes those who have it a lot of suffering. That's not the same as someone who elects to repress their own sexuality because they've swallowed some religious ideology (which they invariably have).

 

The only way someone can argue therapy is completely ineffective is if they begin with the assumption that sexuality is inherent and static, ie completely impossible to change and only ‘discoverable’. Which is completely the opposite to a lot of our experiences, where we remember a time when our sexuality was something different to what it is now.

If someone’s sexuality can change in response to environmental pressures or their experiences, then why couldn’t it be changed using psychological therapy?

I’m not trying to argue that people SHOULD try and change their sexuality using psychological techniques, only that it’s possible that in some people it might work. For example if things were different for me, say I had a less accepting boyfriend, then these urges I get for connection with women would be very unhelpful and I might want to try and rid myself of them….

 

Erm, I'm sorry to interrupt, but gender reassignment surgery is a scientifically proven method of alleviating gender dysphoria, backed by plenty of studies. And it's not like you just "can" have it because you think you need it - in most places you need to prove that you absoluetely need it and there is just no other way you can be helped. It's the last resort option in medicine when it comes to treating gender dyshopria and genetial incongurence.

In the same time, conversion therapy has been proven multiple times over to be infeffective at best, harfmul at worst. If someone absouletly wants to go trough it, knowing and understanding the risks involved... On the one handm it's their life and their choice, who are we to judge, right? On the other hand, history shows us that all too often people were coerced and otherwise forced into it, and that is a very real problem.

You're right that we don't know what they're experiencing. But some things are just more believable than others.

 

Yeah I think it is inherent. I doubt your sexuality was different in the past. Probably you were just in denial.

You don't care that no medical or psychological association agrees with you?

 

I have a degree in psychology and during university there was a evidence presented to suggest that sexuality is inherent and there were also evidence presented that it can change but never were either presented as unquestionable truth.

I care less about what psychological associations think about the general population as I care about what I think about myself. I also find it fascinating how people in the LGBTQ space can so easily write off people’s experiences just because they don’t fit the narrative. I’ve always been fairly comfortable with who I find attractive and I’ve never tried to repress it or not act on it. I can’t force you to believe me when I say I had zero romantic or sexual attraction to women prior to engaging in sexual activity with a woman but it is what I believe and I can’t imagine anything ever changing my mind on that.

 

When I say I realized I was gay in my 20s, it's not that I was straight before then. I had bad info, brainwashing by society, a sensitive nature trying to fit in but also didn't want attention on me. In hindsight it was obvious I liked guys all along and didn't have the same level of feelings for women. There were times a horny young me felt something with women so if I was a guy who felt he had to prove himself I could have, but I didn't. I probably could have gone along with it to fit in like lots of others do, but it would not have been as good as with a guy, other than looking the part on the outside, as so many care more about than our mental and emotional health. Rigid external expectations like that have ruined people for all of history it seems. I thought brain scans have shown gay guys and trans mtf have brain structures that look more female than average cis straight male brains. I wonder if bi people have brains in the middle. What a wonderful world it would be if everyone learns this stuff so they understand themselves properly and are free to be their authentic selves all their lives.

 

You have to look at it from a risk/reward perspective, I think. Maybe most people that go through conversion therapy find it doesn’t help them and they regret it, but it’s essentially either ineffective or reversible. It’s another thing entirely to go through gender reassignment surgery and regret it. Not many people do, but the number is not zero. I find it difficult to justify banning one and favouring the other, as one creates a relatively small amount of harm for a fairly large proportion of people and the other thing creates a high amount of harm for a small proportion of people. People ultimately should be able to choose what is right for them, but it needs to be free of coercion or influence of others.

 

Yes. I have heard of and seen testimonials from people that seem sincere . It is not a path I choose, but people here won't even accept that it's possible or it seems even accept that people have a right to do this - and that its harmful when clearly for some people it isn't.

 

Personally I’m not at all bothered. A million people could queue up to tell me I’m wrong and that I was born this way, at the end of the day I’d just disagree and crack on with my life, it’d be like water off a duck’s back to me. But there are so many others who need validation in this and other aspects of their identity and don’t take kindly to any kind of questioning. I just find it a bit ironic really.

 

There are plenty of ways to influence the human mind, which you most likely know much better than I do. Aside from the dubious methods often employed by practioneers of such "therapy", the very existence of it implies that being gay or trans or any kind of queer is a problem that needs fixing - which is not.

Not all forms of conversion therapy are reversible, some leave permanent lasting damage to the individual, i.e. brain surgeries, castration, certain forms of aversion therapy. All of these an many more have been practiced before and some are practiced still.

I have found no information about numbers of people regretting conversion therapy, and the real numbers of people subjected to such procedures are likely to be unknown, but if we're talking about gender affirming surgeries, it's ~ 1% of those who went trough it who have felt regret about their decision, according to biggest study of the topic so far.

 

Please don’t think I’m a cheerleader for conversion therapy - I’m not. I’m taking the position that ultimately it should be people that decide what is right for them, not a regulator or healthcare practitioner. If people want to go spend their own money on a therapist to see if they can quell those same-sex urges because they’re at risk of causing their marriage to break up or whatever other reason, I think the only person that decision should rest with is themselves.

And that’s not a judgement on homosexuality, I’d say the same if someone in a gay relationship was having problematic opposite sex urges.

 

Ok, could you point me to some of the evidence that sexual orientation can change?

You have a degree in psychology but you don't care about the stance of professional psychological associations, made based on evidence?

Which is why you engaged in sexual activity with a woman.

Gender reassignment surgery and conversion therapy are not the same at all. One is designed to fix a problem and make someone feel more like themselves, so its aim is noble, even if its execution is imperfect. I do think that every possible safeguard should be put in place, especially for younger people. The other is a sham solution to a nonexistent problem. If someone sees being gay as a problem that needs to be fixed, then that's the problem that needs to be worked on, not being gay.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything such. There's nothing wrong if someone goes to a therapist beacuse they're struggling with their identity or sexuality and it causes issues in other areas of their lives, quite the opposite - it's great that they try to tackle their issues.
In this case, the problem is more in the term "conversion therapy" itself, both because of the negative connotations it has for histroical reasons and because of the possibility of it being used and abused by opponents of LGBTQ people.

Yes, everyone should be free to choose what they deem best for them, but there's also question of medical ethics. Should a medical professional attempt to cure something that is not an illness in the first place?

That's also the problem with the whole nature vs nurture debate about sexual orientation and identity - no matter is it something we're born with or aquired, or a combination of factors - do we even need to look for a reason for something that is normal?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_fluidity

Key points being that 1) sexuality can change 2) it isn’t subject to choice and 3) it is theorised that genetics, hormones and environment can all have an effect. No single theory has widespread support. So - essentially - we’re not sure. I’m not sure about anyone else apart from myself.

A professional association is made up of individuals, and individuals hold varying opinions. I don’t care about being in the minority about something, but I’m not the only person who believes what I believe. There are a good few on this forum also.

Not at all. I’ve posted my story here before, you can read through my posts from years ago if you wish but I had zero physical attraction to women either before or in the few weeks/months after my first experience. I learned to enjoy it and my sexuality changed in response to that.

I don’t want to be that guy that says what other people are feeling and what is right for others. All I will say is that for me, I have no problem being attracted to women. It has been a net positive in my life and I wish everyone else who has same sex attractions and experiences feels the same. But you only need to read through this forum to see how many problems it causes for people. I don’t want to be a cheerleader for conversion therapy, I don’t want to provide it and I don’t want my taxes to pay for anyone to get it. But I don’t want my political representatives to try and stop people freely choosing to spend their own money on someone offering it, whether it’s someone from the psychology industry or someone coming at it from a religious perspective. That is my only take on it.