Hi! I'm a noobie!

You're right - this is a very good discussion and an important one. EC and the people on here who open up about their lives have been a godsend to me. Special nod to you, JT, and all these guys who share their problems. I am beginning to understand my life - for the first time in my life! I realize I have always been gay, mostly lesbian, with some attraction to men. When I was younger, I was in the closet. I didn't have a girlfriend and didn't think I would ever have one - I did not think I wanted that. I met a wonderful guy, fell in love, and decided that like you said, JT, being married was better than being alone or with a succession of people coming and going. Although the marriage is good, I never enjoyed sex, even though I have a normal sex drive. Now my husband is so understanding that he has given me the "green light" to get a girlfriend. I think he thinks I just want sex. I am in limbo right now. Not sure what to do. I don't want to lose what I have with him, but I know if I had met a nice woman first, and not been in the closet, I would be with a woman now and would not desire a man. I don't feel that a relationship with a woman, or even just sex, would be cheating. But I feel that being with another man would be cheating. I don't know why I feel that way. The desire to be with women is getting stronger, while my feelings for him are the same. I don't know where this will lead, but now at least I know what I want.

 

Though it may not seem so, i have a strong emotional disposition towards monogamy, as well as a rational one. It would be a whole lot more convenient to be able to have a holistic relationship with one person. i was in a 31 year marriage to a woman. When i came to a place of self acceptance and realized i'm not going to change, indeed, i cannot, (my efforts to change could fill boring books). i told my former wife that i could not hide or lie anymore, that if she wanted to be married to me she would be married to a gay man. For clarity, she knew i am gay prior to being married and i brought it up again early on in our marriage. She is of persuasion that believes, as i once did, that being gay is "a choice, is sinful and sick." i know longer saw it that way when i processed to a place of self acceptance, but she continued to believe i just needed to "repent" (her word). When she realized i couldn't do that, she asked for a divorce. Retrospectively, i believe that was the right decision for both of us, but at the time i was willing to keep trying, but with me no longer rejecting the gay thing. All that to say, i can relate to loving someone and it not all being about sex. idk if i could have pulled it off not having sex with men and just being accepted emotionally as i am, didn't get that opportunity, but again, i think the decision to divorce in our case was right. That was 2008 and neither of us has changed our stance on being gay, and though she tried to keep it from me, i learned recently she remarried pretty quickly.

Meanwhile, i've looked for a relationship with a guy. When i first divorced, she got everything in material terms, so i ended up having to change careers, 100k student loan debt, long story, but that start over left little time to pursue relationship. Survival mode. Still, i have looked, felt, thought, watched way too many gay romance movies, pined, had hook up sex to supplement, etc..

What i discovered is, while i didn't have one person where our mutual needs/desires were met, i had lots of interactions where some of them were met very well... mutually. For me, a more ideal approach to relationship would be people learning to know ourselves, then learning how to articulate about who and how we are, then openness/vulnerability with potential mates. It sounds clinical on paper, but i think having an almost list of things we know we need from a relationship, then being open about those things with each other, gives us a better chance of finding compatibility that can result in something more symbiotic vs a quid pro quo approach, which i don't think is sustainable.

i think we often lack compatibility because we save getting to know each other till after the commitment. Our deep secret stuff stays hidden for fear of rejection, but the acceptance we crave is an illusion if we remain hidden and unknown, unseen, and ultimately will not cut it. Or we manage to find enough stuff where we stay connected and maybe even have bonds. Often what qualifies as an intimate, loving relationship is really lonely because of those hidden things.

Parenting. Which is better for a kid, three or four happy, unrepressed parents, or two traditionally conformed parents. lol, yeah, i know it's more complex than that, but there are cultures that are more tribal about parenting. Our notions about parenting and other relational aspects may have the feeling of rightness or security that often comes with familiarity (ethnocentricity?).

And, eek. please forgive if this should be another thread. i feel no individual inclination to make it separate, but am happy if you or another would like to? By the same token, i'm new here and don't have a feel for the community. If you're diplomatically suggesting i'm hijacking the thread (my words, not yours, i just don't want to be obtuse), i don't want to do that. if anyone feels (especially the OP) my comments are not germane to this discussion, please say so?

 

Wow, that sounds absolutely brutal. I think things are actually pretty different here in the UK than in the US. There is a lot less moralising from a religious standpoint here. Plenty of people still don't like gays but they don't use religion as a cover for their dislike. Did you and your ex-wife have kids?

Not suggesting you're hijacking - just that this discussion won't get a lot of visibility here. There's a few people on here that I can think of who would no doubt have a lot to say. Feel free to start a thread if you want. I'm a much better replyer than thread-starter

 

I think you should take the opportunity. It might turn out to be a disaster and you regret it, but I think regretting not doing something is so much worse.

The whole "its not cheating if its another woman" thing, which a lot of men might agree with, I see both sides. I think a lot of monogamy-oriented lesbians and bi women get a bit upset about it, like its a judgement on the relationship between two women not being equal to that of a woman and a man. But really, I think they are slightly misunderstanding the male perspective. Men are sexually competitive with other men. They might accept the risk that their woman is 'stolen' by another woman if they let her play around, but if that were to happen it doesn't affect their status with other men. There's definitely a lot of subliminal heirarchy stuff going on with men.

 

To me it reads like you are open with your husband, and he has even given you "the green light to get a girlfriend." Cheating to me would be keeping your feelings and relationship with a girlfriend secret, lying and hiding. i know reason and feelings are different though, we can tell ourselves something all day long, but that doesn't necessarily make our feelings come along for the ride. It also looks to me like even though he has given the green light, you do not seem to think he grasps all the reasons you want a girlfriend. Maybe the parts of your needs/desires you think he doesn't see or understand are also the reason/s you would feel like it's cheating?

As i see it, the point of intimate relationship is to know, accept and love another and to be known, accepted and loved by them. To me, a big part of the "love" factor is wanting what is best for that person. If your husband cannot provide what you need from a girlfriend, it seems like an expression of love that he wants you to have that and gives you the "green light."

i do know it's not as simple as that though. Sometimes we can make sweeping gestures and regret them later. I.e., he may discover that giving that green light was easier said than done for him, just like it's complex for you. None of this stuff is black and white, simple. It's an ongoing process of discovery and experience.

 

i think the 'rules' we make in our relational agreements are unique to that relationship. I.e., i don't think there is a universal standard of cheating that can be equally applied to every relationship. For instance, if two people are married and are open, honest and each knows and understands that there will be other people involved... i don't see how that is cheating? To me, gender makes no difference at all, it would be having a secret intimate relationship, hiding and lying about it, that would constitute "cheating?"

my former wife perceived masturbating as cheating, so in our relationship, for me to do that felt like cheating. Not because i think there is anything wrong with masturbation, but because i knew that's how she felt and thought. To me, it's not a question of one being right and the other being wrong, she is who she is and has a right to live as she sees fit. To me, it then becomes a question of compatibility.

As to your observation about "a lot of subliminal hierarchy stuff going on with men."
A resounding yes to that. This topic can fill books. Being different has helped me question and examine my own conditioning and position as a privileged white male. i'm a gay total bottom submissive man (that's a very loaded few words) who was presumptively raised to be a straight 'top' 'dom' man. How that bears out with me (any of us i think) as an individual is really complex. i learned a ton about my own nature and wiring in a marriage relationship with a woman who, temperamentally, was also total bottom and submissive. i subscribe to the idea that our sexuality is on a spectrum, and while some aspects of it may be slow moving to the point of seeming static, our sexuality can be fluid. One of the things i learned in marriage is i hate "role play" (something i think is commonly done "subliminally" in traditional relationships). i had to play the role of the standard straight male who is supposed to be 'top' and 'dom' (i put those words in single quote, because i think they are individually defined, not one size fits all labels). my point here is that who and how i am wired mentally, psychologically, has a lot of what many would identify as female wiring.
The subliminal hierarchy stuff affects us all. my former wife thoroughly internalized male hierarchy and expected me to be that and considered me a failure when i was not. So, i played the role... but it didn't work for either of us, because doing for someone because they wan/need it, and we may even want to give that to them, is not the same as being what they want/need.

 

I agree with what you are saying 100%. What qualifies as a loving intimate relationship is really lonely because of the hidden things - that's it. That's the story of my marriage. We manage to find enough stuff to stay connected and even have bonds - exactly. I don't want to just repeat what you are saying but I had to, because you are so right about it. The hidden stuff stays hidden. Again, I had to repeat that, it describes what goes on so well. Thank you for your excellent posts and observations, Tall Slender.

 

Thank you for your observations, JT. On the subject of cheating, I feel that being with another woman is not cheating because it is a need that he cannot fill, and I think he feels that way too. If I were with another man, I would feel that I was saying that the other man was better or more important than him. That feeling may not be appropriate or ethical or anything like that, but I am just saying that that is the way I feel. This is especially true for me because I am a lesbian. The situation is different for a bisexual. It would not apply as much to you because you do enjoy your fiance sexually so if you were with a woman, it would seem to mean that you were '''choosing her" over him. Once again, that is just what I feel - may not be right.

 

I forgot to say in my earlier post that I do not think that a relationship between two women is somehow not equal to a hetero relationship. Far from it, such a relationship is very important and meaningful. That is not why I don't feel that it would be cheating. I didn't even realize that some people would read it that way. That's an interesting point.

 

I think if he knows about it and he’s OK with it, it can’t be classed as cheating. Cheating is something you do behind someone’s back and against their wishes.

I do understand the dilemma of whether you think it’s appropriate though. I have questioned that a lot. When I had my own place and a boyfriend that I saw a few times a week, I was quite happy to use the ‘free pass’ that I’d been given. Now I’m living with my fiancé, that pass is still on the table but it doesn’t quite feel the same as it did before, something about it feels off. All that being said, we very much enjoyed sharing our bed with another woman so….

 

Sorry I didn’t mean to make it sound like that’s what you thought. It’s a criticism that I hear from lesbians about straight men who give their bisexual girlfriends a pass to sleep with other women, but other men are off limits. What I hear from the lesbians is that the men are judging the other woman as not being a threat because there is something less valuable/desirable about a non-straight relationship. But I don’t think they have it right, I think men aren’t that worried about losing their partner (they probably don’t even consider it), it’s losing her to another man that they worry about.