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Do straight people turn gay?

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by Hope4love, Jul 16, 2018.

  1. OGS

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    You're post was literally framed as a response to me. And I'm curious what idea it is that I expressed that matched with this "worldview" I supposedly have. As near as I can tell the thing that offends you is that I identify as a gay man, because for some reason you think you understand my life and my experiences better than do I. I suppose I should consider myself fortunate that this website is pretty much the only place where I am regularly attacked for being a gay man.
     
  2. Biguy45

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    Yep. A little long winded but similar to twitter
     
  3. LostInDaydreams

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    To be fair, I've seen plenty of women express similar sentiments to @OGS whilst I've been on EC, including myself.

    It's as simple as finally realising what attraction should actually feel like. I feel the same way about my experiences with men. I doesn't mean I think of them as being "lesser" or even "not valid". I just understand my own attractions better. It's what you feel that counts. Where has there been anything to suggest in this thread that women are somehow lesser?
     
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  4. Love4Ever

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    All of what you are saying is exactly what I was referring to. It bothers me deeply there are so many gay men that have these attitudes. It's bad for bi men, it's bad for women, it's bad for the gay men themselves. It's bad for everyone.
     
  5. Love4Ever

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    You literally said that you thought it was unfortunate that so many men had been with women before switching to primarily being with men. As if that was something bad, which it's not. And I disagree with your view that all these feelings that these men who are now "gay" must have had were fake. Not all feelings are the result of artificial impressment. I have absolutely nothing against you at all, and my post was not even primarily addressing you, only the views that you expressed that many others agree with which I disagree. My opinion is simply that, my opinion. You certainly can not agree with me, but I don't have to agree with you.
     
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  6. Nickw

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    Love4ever

    My experience was in a group setting. You would, probably, hear similar remarks, although slightly different in a group of straight guys.

    Even more so, will be disparaging remarks about gay man sex. So, the fact that gay guys might engage in disparaging remarks about straight man sex is not surprising.

    I probably shouldn't have repeated the comments. What I see, and I could be wrong about this...is that there is similar pressure put on gay men to conform as there is on straight men to conform.

    Me. I am left to feel ashamed in both groups.
     
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  7. LostInDaydreams

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    It's also unfortunate so many women end up with men before realising they are gay. I feel trapped and hopeless every single day, and I wouldn't wish this on anyone. It would be better if people didn't feel the need to follow a heterosexual path, or if they realised earlier that an alternative existed. It would save those people, and the people they enter heterosexual relationships with, a lot of pain.

    For some people, it is bad. You cannot tell me it's good everyone. My mental health is in bits.
     
  8. PatrickUK

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    I don't think it's fair or reasonable to suggest that everyone is born bisexual. I'm content to accept the idea that our sexuality is not set in stone (few things in life are), but for the majority of people there is a very clear and significant predominance in their sexual leanings; sufficient enough for them to self identify as straight or gay. I realise and totally accept that it's not like this for everyone and many people are more comfortable to label themselves as bisexual, because the strength of their feelings and lived experience does not lead them to a strong predominance, either way. This is the reality of how it is.

    If a man or woman experiments with a member of the same sex we shouldn't rush to the conclusion that they are gay (or bisexual). Nor should we conclude that they are losing or have lost all interest in the opposite sex. In actual fact it's not the place of anyone to label another person on this forum or anywhere else. If an opinion is sought, we may offer it, but it really is a matter for the individual how they choose to identify. If we make strident statements about these issues it's more likely to provoke than help.

    When it comes to matters of human sexuality we must accept that a whole range of feelings come into play. For people who experience same sex curiosity or attraction those feelings can be complex and may include issues like anger, shame, denial, rejection and we cannot address complex feelings like these with simplistic answers or strident statements, when so much is individual and personal.

    We need to be more inclined to listen to what people are saying and set aside any preconceived ideas about these things. It's not necessarily an either/or situation,
     
  9. Biguy45

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    My problem is that when I say that I’m bi but have chosen to stay with and be faithful to my wife, it’s implied that I’m repressing my true feelings and that I’m actually gay. That just isn’t the case. I’m actually closer to straight. Some of the posts I read make me want to just completely ignore my bi side rather than embrace it. I’m a straight leaning bi man, if I don’t know how I feel, who does. As they used to say. Live and let live
     
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  10. Nickw

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    Biguy45

    I relate.

    There is NO community for guys like us and it makes me really sad some days...today is one. I can't even come out to my family because my brother's husband is so vocal about his disbelief in bisexuality and his "expertise" at all things gay in my family.

    It is what it is I guess. I get what Patrick is saying. Better to pick a side and stick with it. The Kinsey Graph is not a bell curve...its U shaped.
     
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  11. Biguy45

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    Usually after a day like this, I just avoid this site for a few days. Not really anything I can do about it
     
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  12. CuriousLad

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    Look I can see where you're going with this, but throwing around the big words never works, trust me. I've realised from first hand experience that entitled misogynists are allergic to words like 'sexism' and 'misogyny', and that the moment they hear these, they'll start tuning you out. These well researched terms challenge their status quo and make them insecure because they're not longer just being called 'mean' or 'unfair'.
    That being said, I'm not sure if @OGS was being explicitly misogynistic or if his message even had similar undertones. You're accusing some gay men of trivialising women, despite feeling good with them. They are allowed to think that in retrospect, their time with women was something 'bad'. They are allowed to say "It was okay" or "it wasn't special", simply because they're subconsciously or consciously more attracted to men and they probably didn't feel the emotional connection with the women they slept with. That doesn't necessarily mean they've got something against the women.

    However, there are some statements I won't condone like these ones that @Nickw had to hear.
    This one's more pardonable
    But the reason why I'm asking you to forgive some gay men for being gynophobic is because gay men really do have it tougher, in some ways. They're men, so they have it easier than women any day, but the homophobia they face from straight men is on a completely different level. They're ostracised, ridiculed and frankly tortured simply because they don't belong to the jock party and bullying and ragging aren't the only ways to do this. Straight women sometimes give crap to gay men too, btw. I don't speak for all men, but regardless of sexuality, they try really hard to fit in with other men. So when they're finally out of the torture cell, having embraced who they are, gay men don't want to revert back to the old days. Any apparently misogynistic comments are more of subconscious defence mechanisms. They're finally in this safe space and there's not better way to secure their place in it by dissing any past experiences linked to the common persecution they endured. Those were uncomfortable times for them, doubting their sexualities and themselves. And so their female partners bear the brunt of their criticism simply because they were a part of those experiences.
    Does that make it alright? No. Does it make it forgivable? Yes, sometimes. Women are in general more tolerant than men about certain issues like these, so lesbians might have it a bit easier, but tough nonetheless. Which is the entire point of having something called the 'LGBT'; so we can support one another and forgive each other's mistakes if they've got some legitimate reason to be making them.


    Not cool. Girls don't whine like those gay men @Nickw met, idiots do. I'm not butthurt about this for personal reasons. I just know a few guys who had it really tough because they'd be called feminine and also gay interchangeably. I was too, at one point, but I decided to reinvent myself and fight back before any of it even got to me. Can't say the same about them since one guy even went toward self-harm. Look, I wouldn't expect any random guy to be sensitive, but you're bi so you're part of the community. Though admittedly not feminine yourself, I'm sure you can at least empathise with the struggles, and understand the fact that sexuality and demeanour are not related.

    @LostInDaydreams Women can be misogynistic too, in fact many ironically are. They're probably not insecure like the men are, but have been conditioned into the sexism. However, they're mostly simply compliant with male prejudice, not active participants in it. Certainly not implying that @OGS is a misogynist, though.

    @PatrickUK You're right. These forums are meant for constructive disagreements, as long we can agree on basic rules of civility for how we disagree.

    I can't emphasise this enough; You guys are SO LUCKY to even have an active LGBT community to call home and to spread awareness. Cherish it.
     
    #32 CuriousLad, Jul 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  13. PatrickUK

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    Well, if you've given careful consideration to questions about repressed feelings and concluded that you are not repressing anything it should be left there. If it seems that you are being repeatedly challenged about this issue though, I'd guess it's because people are only too aware that repression is an endemic problem for many gay men, especially those who decided to marry. It's more likely that people have been attempting to fully explore this issue with you to determine if you are pushing things aside or holding something back. From what you are saying though, that's not the case, so it's perhaps reached a point where the question has been asked of you and fully answered.

    I'm sorry if it's felt like you have been ignored and I hope my comments here have helped you to see why people pursue these questions so much.
     
  14. Biguy45

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    I get it. People are using their own experiences as a benchmark so to speak. I’ve considered this myself. I thought maybe I was repressing and was actually gay. All I can say is, I honestly don’t thin k so. I feel very confident in this. It probably sounds like I’m trying to convince myself I suppose. Could this change in the future, I guess so but I doubt it. Regardless, thanks for your response. I appreciate it
     
  15. CuriousLad

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    Hey I'm not married so I can't relate to those problems but I am bi in ways similar to you, so I'll have a listen if you ever need to rant. Well only when my mom doesn't decide to confiscate her adult son's phone like it's freaking middle school all over again.
     
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  16. Nickw

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    I know I always get sensitive when these threads come up. Mostly, based on my experiences outside of this forum. This forum is about asking questions of ourselves and others and we shouldn't get wound up when we are challenged.

    I will ask one thing of you gay men in particilar. When you find yourself and start living as an out and proud gay man, please remember that bisexuals are gay too. It totally sucks to attend Pride, AIDS benefits and get the crap beat out of you in defense of you only to be excluded from the group when it's party time.
     
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  17. thinkreal93

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    Hey Love4Ever
    To clarify, OSG didn't discredit his straight experiences as "artificial" or "fake" at all. I think you're understanding it wrong. He's just saying that growing up in a heteronormative society, we're encouraged to have sex with girls, & vice versa. And sex, meaning the sexual feeling you have when you're turned on is a good feeling. It's pleasure. Any sexual stimulus can elicit that response. In heteronormative society, I as a man, would grow to perceive women as a stimulus for sexual feelings. It's totally natural. Nothing artificial. It's sort of a learned response. That's exactly what OSG said. It's natural. And it is pleasure.
    But once I find a stimulus that rocks my boat over, I am totally going to focus on it and overlook other potential stimuli. That's why gay men would say they're over women. There's no misogyny here that you seem to think there is. OSG is only saying what's unfortunate is the heteronormative influence. They're not artificial feelings. They're just what we are able to enjoy. There's nothing against women. Hope it clears it up for you.
     
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  18. Biguy45

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    That’s why I know I’m bi and not gay. Some guys turn me on but nothing compares to the attraction I feel to a sexy woman. It’s almost overwhelming. I would t trade my experiences with women for anything. I just wouldn’t have minded throwing a couple of dudes in for good measure
     
  19. Blackbirdz

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    Strongly disagree. I think heteronormativity is a more than sufficient explanation. Gay people sometimes force themselves into straight relationships. This is due to the pressure to conform to society's heteronormative expectations. The reverse isn't true. There is no homonormative pressure that creates a closet for straight people. This is the origin of the double standard. To put it another way, a gay person has a strong motive, other than genuine sexual attraction, to engage in straight sex. A straight person does not have this same motive when engaging in gay sex. I guess the only motive for a straight person to have gay sex would be curiosity, and this is a weak motive.

    OGS's response was very clearly in the context of gay men forcing themselves into sexual relationships with women (refer back to the OP: "do gay people who had sex with the opposite sex become less attracted to the same sex?" ). In this respect, these are not examples of genuine sexual experiences for gay people. The argument that gay men should view sex with women as 'the real thing' is something one would expect to hear in conversion therapy.

    Yikes. That gay men reject women as sexual/romantic partners or that they don't see their previous sexual experiences with women as legitimate has nothing to do with misogyny. It has everything to do with their sexual orientation. Don't confuse misogyny with sexual orientation, otherwise it's just going to look like you're shaming gay men for their sexual orientation.
     
    #39 Blackbirdz, Jul 20, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
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  20. Love4Ever

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    And now you've completely misunderstood me. I'm not shaming men for being attracted to other men. At all. What I am saying is there is a lot of pressure in the gay male community to completely have no attraction to women. Even if some men aren't "perfect" Kinsey 6's. Even if the guy in question had enjoyable sexual experiences with women that were not the result of heteronormativity. And yes, heteronormativity exists, and in many places of the world it is nescessarily to seek opposite sex partnerships to avoid persecution. I'm not arguing that at all. But what I am saying is for people who grew up in a place where the majority of people were straight but there was no shame in not being so, how can you say that is heteronormativity if the person genuinely has some hetero attraction? If heteronormativity, even in a supportive environment, is so pervasive that it has the ability to manifest false feelings then straight people must also be lying to themselves. They must not have hetero attractions either apparently. They must have just completely internalized what is culturally acceptable and been brainwashed or something. And to suggest that I was saying anything about conversion therapy? What the heck? That is absolutely truly horrifying and something I absolutely do not support.
     
    #40 Love4Ever, Jul 20, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
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