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General News Bernie Sanders Endorses Hillary Clinton

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Libertino, Jul 12, 2016.

  1. midwestgirl89

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    This is why I think it's important to stand behind Hillary, therefore against Donald Trump and Mike Pence.


    Here is just a list of what Mike Pence has done to hurt the LGBT community so far:

    Future of conservatism demands traditional marriage. (Feb 2008)
    Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination based on sexual orientation. (Nov 2007)
    Voted YES on Constitutionally defining marriage as one-man-one-woman. (Jul 2006)
    Voted YES on Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex marriage. (Sep 2004)
    Rated 7% by the ACLU, indicating an anti-civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
    Rated 0% by the HRC, indicating an anti-gay-rights stance. (Dec 2006)
    Amend Constitution to define traditional marriage. (Jun 2008)
    Voted NO on enforcing against anti-gay hate crimes. (Apr 2009)

    Here is a list of other things he has done to hurt people, animals, or the environment:

    Voted NO on enforcing against anti-gay hate crimes. (Apr 2009).
    Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad. (May 2001)
    Voted YES on barring EPA from regulating greenhouse gases. (Apr 2011)
    Rated 0% by HSLF, indicating an anti-animal welfare voting record. (Jan 2012)
    Rated 10% by the LCV, indicating anti-environment votes. (Dec 2003)
    Voted YES on building a fence along the Mexican border. (Sep 2006)

    There is a much longer list.
    Mike Pence on the Issues

    He also wants to defund Planned Parenthood of course and made a law where women could not have abortions even if they knew their baby would only live for 10 minutes due to some sort of rare birth defect.


    Trump has already talked about banning all Muslims from traveling into the USA, building a wall along the Mexican border, called Mexicans rapists, and has said some really racist/sexist/ableist comments. Other countries are either scared of him or are angry that he is even an option.

    With Pence's proven record and Trump's racist ideology, it's a recipe for disaster. Hillary is not perfect of course but other countries don't hate her and also she doesn't have the same record against so many minority groups. Yes, she voted against LGBT rights at one point in her life but she changed her view point whereas Pence is still highly anti-LGBT and Trump is not pro-LGBT by any means. Clinton is the better option out of Trump and Clinton if you look at all of the evidence of Pence's record and Trump's history of racist speeches.

    I do disagree with any war like you said so I wouldn't agree with Clinton or Trump on that case but I still think Clinton is our best option.
     
    #81 midwestgirl89, Jul 18, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2016
  2. Simple Thoughts

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    Yeah you don't have to explain to me that Trump and his idiot running mate are terrible. I'm fully aware of that, but I'm not gonna throw my vote away and silence my own voice in order to vote against something. I'm sick and tired of "voting against the other guy" politics because it leaves us getting slightly worse candidates.

    Bill gave us NAFTA and repealed glass-stegell, then we got Bush who gave us the patriot act and the Iraq war, then we got Obama who gave us massive political instability in the middle east, drone strikes on women and children, and bows before his corporate overlords and now you're asking me to go for Hilary who'll cause further instability in the middle east, support and push fracking which hurts are already terrible environment, and supports the TPP.

    I'm not going to do it. I'm done with 'lesser of two evil' politics. I'm sorry, but they are both evil and I refuse to have the blood they'll inevitably spill on my hands just because I didn't want the other guys blood on my hands. I'll keep my hands clean and vote for Jill Stein or refuse to vote at all because at this point I don't even care who wins they are both subhuman scum who don't deserve to hold that office.
     
  3. purplewolf6

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    I completely agree with you SimpleThoughts.

    We are too complacent with having two questionable picks and we need to start opening a bridge to more or we'll be flung into an abyss. It amazes me that some Democrats want to keep the "lesser evil" practice when they are suppose to be the voices of changing traditions. It's still one's decision to vote for whoever they want or not vote at all as long as it's a voluntary choice to do either.

    Picking between Hawk Hillary and a thin-skinned unpredictable Trump only gives leeway to worse elections in the future that's the catch.
     
  4. Simple Thoughts

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    Like I said before. If we keep on going down this road the democrats will be running Trumps and the republicans will be running people like that Phillipean dude or Erdogan in our future elections.

    It's been getting worse and worse every election cycle and as far as I can see that's not going to change unless the people make it change.
     
  5. iiimee

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    To be fair, we got an Obama right after ANOTHER Bush. That's a win... right?
     
  6. Simple Thoughts

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    Not really. Obama is just as bad and worse on some very important issues like foreign policy.
     
  7. purplewolf6

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    Continued the wars when he said he would end them, beefed up the drone strike program, bails out bankers not holding them accountable for the recession of 08, and didn't put enough effort into closing gitmo. I think it could be argued that he was/is a Bush lite.
     
  8. greatwhale

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    So interesting, Clinton's numbers including favorability (only 40% vs 56% UNfavorable), her ability to beat Trump-she's running neck and neck with him, or losing to Trump in key swing states despite her outspending him 40:1 on advertising...and these are numbers that came out after Bernie's endorsement...

    Puts to rest all those misguided notions that Bernie was the cause of her unpopularity; she did this all on her own...The timing of his endorsement was actually kind of brilliant.

    Meanwhile, Bernie still beats Trump pretty much everywhere by double-digits in the most recent polls...
     
    #88 greatwhale, Jul 19, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  9. BMC77

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    It is interesting, although I'm not totally surprised. Although I suppose Clinton supporters will say that Sanders and some of his supporters poisoned minds, and that poisoning won't go away easily even with his endorsement.

    But I know there are people who are Sanders supporters who intelligent, reasonably well informed, and who aren't happy with Clinton.

    I wonder if any of the Super Delegates are paying attention to the numbers. According to the delegate count, Sanders could still theoretically win IF some Super Delegates vote for him. Of course, this raises some difficulties. For one thing, Clinton does have more Pledged Delegates, and so going with Sanders would have the problem of going against the will of voters. (Of course, it has been argued the system was rigged against him, which adds to the complexity of the situation.) Also he is an outsider, and it may well be that there would be Democrats in a position of power--which is exactly who the Super Delegates are--who might decide they want Clinton. They want "one of us." They want to preserve the way things are done. And if that means losing to Trump, even though these same people scream "we can't have Trump!" so be it.

    I also keep wondering if this isn't the worst election I've lived through. Less of evils is nothing new. Candidates I can't get excited about is also nothing new. But I don't think it's ever been so bad that has come down to campaigns that are nothing more than keeping the other candidate out of the White House.
     
  10. Herbert

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    If what I said was a fallacy, I'm rather confident that your idea is an even more of one. You seem to hold the misconception that you are somehow serving your interests by not voting for a lesser evil. Not voting for Hillary is a vote for both Trump and Hillary; and, more importantly, a vote for Trump. In order to maintain an unrealistic ethical standard, you're effectively voting for a -5, rather than a -3, which makes no sense whatsoever. Politicians inevitably lower their standards of corruption, steadily and steadily, but they do not suddenly become less corrupt because a particularly corrupt individual is voted into office, they become less corrupt when it is advantageous. When politicians become sufficiently corrupt, people become angry, and people vote for any hackjob that isn't particularly corrupt, resetting the cycle.

    In any case, I remain unconvinced that Sanders is actually a better candidate than Hillary, or that corruptness is a valid method of judging politicians in the first place. To be frank, I could care less if someone happens to take bribes; what actually matters is what they actually do in their role as legislators and executors. As a moderate libertarian, I would gladly vote for Gary Johnson in any other election where the negatives of the two candidates were roughly equal in how much I favor their positions, but not in one with such a severe disparity. I agree with Hillary on a number of issues, though not all of them, and I can scarcely find a single firm stance taken by Trump that I agree with. By voting for anyone but Hillary, I am indirectly, or even directly, making it more likely that positions I don't agree with are put forward and made law, which, let me say it again, is going against my interests.

    To put it in different words, you have to evaluate your actions by the consequences they create in the end (also known as the philosophy of consequentialism). Even if I can say that corruption is a bad thing, and that Hillary is corrupt (which I find scant solid evidence for), I must analyze the consequences of that corruption. Not to be insensitive, but Benghazi killed four Americans, and the policies of Trump could easily put 4 million out of work, some of whom would inevitably starve. I'm willing to bet that more than 4 of those left unemployed would starve, and that many more would commit suicide or otherwise die as a result of his action. Thus, I cannot pretend that I have somehow taken the high moral ground by making it more likely for Trump to win, and for those people to die. Pretending that the path which involves more people dying is morally superior is ethical nonsense.

    Also, Sanders conceded his candidacy for all effective terms. The only possible way (that is, the only way with any real possibility) for him to be made the candidate would be if the superdelegates went against the will of the people, and millions of voters, to put him in power. Superdelegates, mind, that Sanders has passionately argued against the existence of, and without whom he would have already officially lost.

    If winning by a 7, a 5, and a 4 in national polls taken within the last weekend alone counts as being 'neck and neck', I have clearly misunderstood what that term means. Unless something catastrophic happens, Hillary Clinton is going to win. There isn't really much of an argument there.

    Edit: Also, all of this discussion distinctly reminds me of a quote, whose origin I've forgotten.

    This is precisely the sort of situation that calls for that quote to be read. And reread. And read again after being reread. Hillary Clinton may not be good, but she is certainly good by comparison with Trump, and that is the only sort of goodness that matters. We don't consider George Washington evil for having owned slaves, because he was good relative to others in his time; all goodness is relative, no matter what people quibble over. Voting for a third party is the equivalent of voting for nothing, foolish optimism aside, and that is all that is required for evil to triumph.
     
    #90 Herbert, Jul 19, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  11. greatwhale

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    Just a few clarifications on this comment:

    I referred to the closeness in key swing states, not national polls. What matters are electoral college votes, not the popular vote, per se. Yes, still too early to tell definitively what will happen (and there is a lot of time for things to happen), but it seems to me that fielding a candidate with unfavorables in the high fifties (an historical high for a main candidate) is playing with fire.

    Yes, given the (odious and depressing) choice, one must vote for Hillary to defeat Trump, Bernie would be the first to agree. It's just sad that there is a candidate who consistently crushes Trump in almost all states, and that candidate is not Clinton.
     
  12. AwesomGaytheist

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    I'm still thinking Hillary will choose Tim Kaine as her running mate, as not only is he the most qualified for the job, but his presence locks up Virginia for the Democrats. Here's the map as of now with Virginia in blue:

    [​IMG]

    We only need to win one more swing state to get to 270 electoral votes. Whichever states go for Hillary after that is only a victory lap. Donald Trump would have to sweep every one of the above swing states, he'd have to win Nevada, Colorado, Ohio, Iowa, North Carolina, and Florida, and keep Arizona red just to barely eek out a narrow win. We're in a really good place right now, and when we get to the debates and Donald Trump has the opportunity to make a complete ass of himself while everybody's watching and before everybody has a chance to forget before they go to the polls, Hillary will run away with it. We're going to win this election.
     
    #92 AwesomGaytheist, Jul 20, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2016
  13. Libertino

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    It is interesting that today Ted Cruz elected to openly not endorse Trump. Certainly Trump has enough endorsements from other candidates, but he lacks an endorsement from the "runner-up", which Hillary has. Of course this does show that Sanders didn't have to endorse Hillary. At this point I would say I'm glad he did, however.
     
  14. Simple Thoughts

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    I actually disagree with you there. I think that'll be the area where Trump shines because the debates aren't about facts they're about personality and charisma which Trump oozes while Hilary has a tough time convincing people she's not secretly a lizard person in a humanlike form.

    Trump will out perform her in the debates is my guess because he'll strong man his way through everything deflecting criticism like he always does and Clinton is terrible at responding to things off the cuff and Trump will definitely throw things she's not prepared to deal with at her because he's a crazy person and it's impossible to know what he'll be talking about that particular day which will force her to have to respond off the top of her head and we've all seen that train wreck before.

    ---------- Post added 20th Jul 2016 at 11:00 PM ----------

    There are two reasons he did it

    1.) He doesn't want Trump to win the white house because nobody wants that and he doesn't believe a third party candidate could win ( and I agree ) however this is the year that the third parties can get a firm foot planted in the ground and build up for a legit run in the next cycle

    2. ) Hilary Clinton and the establishment democrats basically told him he wouldn't get to speak at the DNC and they wouldn't adopt any of his policies if he didn't endorse Clinton so they kinda forced him to endorse her using the things he wanted to do for this country as leverage to force him to play ball.
     
  15. purplewolf6

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    I want Warren & Sanders to get their voices heard and it's a shame that they were tuned out because of the Trump/Hillary circus. Hopefully Hillary can adopt some of their policies even if they had to kneel with a foot on their back.

    I don't know why Cruz didn't just put out a statement saying he won't endorse Trump instead of showing up. At this point he broke the pledge he signed to do so and signing that pledge is dumb anyways. If anyone feels the leading candidate is deplorable(which Hillary & Trump are) more power to them. If they want to break away from their party to go Third party that's their choice too. Fault should be on DNC & RNC for having such weak leading candidates not the other candidates or the voters.

    I'm especially disappointed in the Hillary voters trying to bully and fear monger others into voting for her. Everyone won't share your point of view in politics deal with it. Do you really think you're successful in convincing us that already feel disenfranchised because we're forced to choose between a Wall Street apologist war hawk and a xenophobic/racist orange? Now is the time for the Third Party to put itself in a better position for the future to get us the potential presidential candidate that isn't "the lesser evil".
     
  16. Herbert

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    Debates aren't about facts, true enough, but I disagree with Trump 'oozing charisma'; whenever I hear him, he sounds like an obnoxious elementary schooler. Debates within primaries aren't real debates, because people can't actually challenge each other on the absurd parts of it all; Cruz can't properly challenge Trump on his Muslim ban because quite a few of his supporters support a Muslim ban, for instance. In spite of how vitriolic they are, they're still wearing the kid gloves. Being loud and obnoxious works when you can crowd out the sixteen other contenders, it makes you look foolish when you're debating with a single other person.

    In the end, I'm betting on Hillary outperforming him in the debates, because Republican Primaries are fundamentally different from General Primaries, in that they aren't really debates. The Republican Primaries were a bunch of people who mostly agreed on things trying to be louder than the next fellow, while the General Primaries involve actual policy. If Hillary can manage to actually press into him like the Republican's were unable to about the whole 'Racist, Sexist, Religionist, Classist' thing, she has those debates in the bag.
     
  17. midwestgirl89

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    I don't think people are trying to bully others. I think they just want to save our country from and evil man who will take away all of our rights and more. It's about being logical and not about bullying. It's fine for people to vote third party but if Trump wins because we split the vote then we will just be there with a "Told you so" sign to the Bernie or Bust people.
     
    #97 midwestgirl89, Jul 22, 2016
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  18. Simple Thoughts

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    Disagree fully.

    If hilary goes the "PC" route against Trump she's pretty much rolling out the red carpet for him to the white house.

    Also Trump does ooze charisma, smart and intelligent people see right through him sure but the average person who is too busy working their lives away that don't have time to fact check every little thing and do a ton of research are only going to hear talking points from the candidates and Trump's words are easily packaged and quick to understand.

    The guy's one talent is marketing and in this election with both candidates sucking that might just be all he needs honestly.
     
  19. Herbert

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    Really? I suppose I don't know many average people, then (my aunt is the only person I know who's voting for him, and even she dislikes him). In terms of 'PC' (which I assume you mean to be Politically Correct), I'm coming to despise that word. I haven't found a single, real life situation where it actually applies. It's a political buzzword, much like fascism, that doesn't actually mean anything.
     
    #99 Herbert, Jul 22, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
  20. purplewolf6

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    I disagree. I don't mean this for all as some people really agree with Hillary but some voters keep fear mongering when both are bad candidates. I respect people's decision to vote Hillary or Trump but don't be mad at me that both parties have unsatisfactory leading candidates.

    Hillary is still too hawkish for me and will keep letting the establishment screw us over. Both are mainly in it for themselves they aren't humanitarians thus don't deserve my vote. It's Ursula vs Red Skull, villainy still wins.

    Again, I'm not disrespecting anyone for voting for either but I think I'll sit this presidential election out. Respect my decision as I respect yours for voting for Hillary. Just not my choice of beverage, sorry. A reason the Third Party is getting a little more attention.

    ---------- Post added 22nd Jul 2016 at 08:27 PM ----------

    All Trump has to do is be rude to her, say facts against her, and he easily could run away with the gold. I think people are underestimating his ability to entertain many audiences whereas Hillary is as bland as stale gum.

    One can easily fluster the other but people are sick of the "cut out politician" so to speak. Like you said the civil "PC route" she is giving Trump an advantage as most people are tired of that. They don't care about how corrupt the other is as most treat this election like a reality tv show anyways.