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General News Bernie Sanders Endorses Hillary Clinton

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Libertino, Jul 12, 2016.

  1. Argentwing

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    "Someone we can at least work with" is one thing, but we can't afford to settle for less than right. Voting for the lesser evil is still choosing evil.
     
  2. Herbert

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    I'm reasonably certain that we (as in, the American populace) can afford it, since we've been doing it since the beginning of this country, and absolutely every country also does it. Moral standards are not, as some might claim, ambiguous, but pretending that voting for a -3 rather than a -7 is somehow wrong is foolish. These things are relative, as all things are; in a contest between someone who is a -3 and -7 in someone's perspective, those numbers are effectively a 4 and 0, or a 2 and -2 if you prefer. If your center of goodness is not the actual center of the options presented, then you need to recalibrate.
     
    #42 Herbert, Jul 13, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  3. CyclingFan

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    I do not understand this reasoning, though I see it a lot. Have we learned so little from 2000?
     
  4. Austin

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    I'll be voting for Jill Stein. His endorsement doesn't satisfy me. He wanted a "revolution" and real change. I think he did what he believed would be best for us, but it's sad he decided to settle. He told us to stand together and fight against corruption in the government but he has now endorsed the one person I believe epitomizes corruption.

    And don't worry about my vote for Jill taking away a vote from Hillary. On the contrary... I would have voted for trump had I only two options.
     
  5. CyclingFan

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    People who would have voted for Sanders who would vote Trump is something I can't understand.
     
  6. Psaurus918

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    "In case Trump went crazy"

    That ship sailed years ago
     
  7. Browncoat

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    Nor is it something that 's going to happen to anything but a minute degree.
     
  8. midwestgirl89

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    It's about time. :eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap I'm voting Hillary and telling my mom, sister, and friends to do the same. My mom and sister will listen and so will a couple of friends at least.

    I was a Bernie fan but it's more important to save us from Trump's evilness than to stand on a moral high horse against Hillary who is not nearly as bad.

    Woot woot go Hillary! :thumbsup:
     
  9. Pret Allez

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    I can understand it to an extent. If one were inclined to retaliate against the Democratic party because they felt disenfranchised, I would regard the sentiment as reckless but something I can at least connect with and engage with respectfully, since I strongly identify with where they are coming from. This isn't me so much arguing with you personally as it is me explaining myself and perhaps others on their behalf.

    I'm voting for Jill Stein myself (I know I'm repeating myself, but some people don't read posts farther back), but it's because the I live in Montana, so the math works out: a Democrat hasn't carried my state in 24 years. Yes, last time it was Bill Clinton in 1992, but I don't think that we have to pretend that will happen again just because Hillary Clinton has the same last name. Even if so, and 2016 is a perfect repeat of 1992, then Hillary should beat Donald by over six thousand votes, so I'm confident I won't throw the election. If I do, I'll obviously own up to it. If I were in a state where there was a realistic contest between the parties, I would vote for Hillary Clinton.

    I think it has to be said that Bernie Sanders' supporters exist on a certain range, from Bernie Bro on the one side to conscientious objector on the other side. I have voted against Hillary Clinton before--when she ran against Barack Obama. I genuinely believed that he was the less authoritarian of the two candidates. Unfortunately the reality of his administration has been too much compromise and either the inability or unwillingness to make his party tow the line in Congress. I realize that the inability to invoke cloture in the Senate and the Blue Dog Democrats were tough realities for him and beyond his control. Nevertheless, I would have preferred him being less able to govern (or even unable) than seeing him "govern" by ceding too much ground.

    I recognize that politics are complicated, and it may look like I'm choosing a very odd time not to give Hillary any slack. After all, Hillary is only very slightly to Barack's right, and about the same level of statist, so if I was happy to vote for Barack both in 2008 and 2012, I should be happy to vote for Hillary now. The common argument being repeated by many Bernie supporters (and me at one time), was that the Democratic party is swinging too far to the right, and Hillary's candidacy is the culmination of that. I realize now how poorly researched a statement that was on my part and the parts of some of his supporters. If indeed the party is swinging further to the right, it is not doing so by very much. At the same time though, I and many other Bernie Sanders supporters were very unhappy with the Democratic party in the past 8-12 years anyway.

    When we were supporting Bernie Sanders, I don't really think too many of us deluded ourselves into thinking he would win the general election. We supported him because we wanted to make it clear to the Democratic party that the views of social anti-authoritarians and economic egalitarians matter, and that our votes are not to be taken for granted. At least for me, it really is a conscientious objection to the direction of the party; it's not to do with Hillary Clinton. If it were possible for Barack to run for a third term, I would still have supported Bernie Sanders over him now (although I would not have in 2008).

    I would also encourage people who are so irritated at us now to consider the fact that Hillary will appear just as ineffective as Barack has if the composition of the Congress fails to substantially change. Republicans need to lose seats in the Congress and particularly in the Senate. The Democrats need to be able to invoke cloture. It needs to be more difficult for the House to send completely inhumane and vicious legislation to the Senate. Until those things happen, the Oval Office is going to be a place where Democrats try--unsuccessfully--to shame Congress into action or veto shit in the alternative.
     
  10. Libertino

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    This describes me almost to a T.

    Although one reason I will be voting for Hillary (you can say "against Trump", though I truly don't regard Hillary as an "evil" to the extent that many Bernie supporters do) is that I would rather have her nomination of Supreme Court justice over Trump's. The Supreme Court often has far-reaching long-term effects that outweigh that of the President and it's important that we don't have a majority of conservative justices again holding us back.
     
    #50 Libertino, Jul 13, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  11. CyclingFan

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    Yep. There's a pretty good chance that the next president will get to select up to 4 Supreme Court justices, which could completely shift the court. Even without the House, we could see a ton of progress made, especially in undoing the damage from disastrous decisions like Heller, Buckley v Valeo, Citizens United etc.
     
  12. RainbowGreen

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    I feel sorry for you guys, having to choose between two terrible candidates. If I were you, I'd either not vote at all or vote third party. Or, even better, move out.
     
  13. Cauldron

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    I'm voting for Giant Meteor.
    [​IMG]
     
    #53 Cauldron, Jul 13, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  14. BMC77

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    I'm in the same sort of basic position, except that Democrats always win my state. The last Republican to win was Reagan in 1984 (who won every state but MN). I am not 100% sure that one can bet a Democrat will win automatically, but I think given Clinton vs. Trump that it's highly unlikely things will change this year.

    So...I am giving consideration to voting 3rd party. We'll see.

    ---------- Post added 13th Jul 2016 at 10:18 PM ----------

    And this is one good argument in favor of Clinton. Her candidates are more likely to be at least tolerably acceptable than the ones Trump might come up with.
     
  15. BMC77

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    I wonder if the Democrats are really "swinging" too far right with Clinton? Might it be more accurate to say the major rightward swing occurred when Ronald Reagan Lite, er, Bill Clinton won? And that has charted the party's course for the last 20+ years?

    In any case, I've had thoughts that it's interesting I'm cutting Clinton no slack now. Partly because I actually did sort of support her in 2008. Not that she was a dream candidate then, but, at the time, I thought she might be more electable than Obama, and a major consideration was just getting Republicans the :***: out of the White House. I also thought Obama didn't have enough experience on a national level.

    So what changed between then and now? I'm not sure, but I can say that I have hit the cracking point. I'm tired of "lesser of evils". I'm tired of problems that just go on and on and on and never seem to get solved in this country. Or when they do get solved, they get solved with solutions that leave a lot to be desired.


    I'm reminded of something a retired teacher said he said at his caucus. He fully expected Clinton to win, but he was voting for Sanders at the caucus because he wanted to vote in favor of Sander's ideas, and IIRC in hopes that Sanders would be more than a footnote in history.
    Realistically, Congress needs to change a lot if anything will get done.

    Even if we had a real progressive President, it takes Congress to make the laws. I don't believe Hillary Clinton is a progressive, but more progressive things would get done if there was a full Democrat takeover of Congress. If Sanders were to win, but Congress stayed like it is now, little would get done.
     
  16. Pret Allez

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    I live in Montana. The math is there. The last time a Democrat carried the state was 1992.
     
  17. CoderK

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    At this point, I honestly don't think he gives a damn that it is Hillary. Pretty sure he just really doesn't want anyone to vote for Trump. America, from a Canadian, I am so sorry that you have to deal with this monstrosity of an election. I honestly hope we accept the Americans who become desperate and move here.
     
  18. Spartan 117

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    I think that a lot of people here in the UK voted to leave the EU, rallying behind some controversial right wing figureheads, in protest of the political establishment. If I was in the US I'd be paying close attention to what is happening here before casting any vote 'in protest'. At this stage it's very unclear what the future holds.
     
  19. midwestgirl89

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    At this point I think there's no room for people to vote third party. I understand that people don't like Hillary but the LGBT community will suffer greatly under a Pence/Trump presidency. I personally can't understand why people can't weigh the options logically. I get being angry at our leaders and wanting something better but at the voting polls in November isn't the right time to protest. We can protest against Hillary's policies when she is in office instead of protesting our way into a Trump presidency and thus basically throwing away the rights of all LGBT Americans (and blacks, Muslims, women, the poor, etc).

    I grew up as the kid that wanted to handcuff myself to my locker at school in protest of the Republican leadership and in protest of inequality. BUT I stand here as an adult that has grown up and knows that change comes in time, with a lot of work, and there are always compromises. If it's always an All-or-Nothing mentality then we will go nowhere with changing this country. Bernie made a statement so he put forth great work. Now let's not throw away his work by voting third party and basically letting Trump and Pence win. I'm personally going to put some blame on Bernie people who voted third party if they win. I know how ignorant the Trump supporters are but Bernie supporters claim to stand for equality and a better future for all. However if they let Trump happen they're to blame as well for not standing up against hate.
     
  20. Argentwing

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    I think this is sort of a fallacy. Just because we've always done it and it sort of works doesn't mean we should keep doing it. Say those numbers on the arbitrary moral scale you set up are a slider of how well they'll serve the people versus serve themselves. Even if the -3 is less of a bastard, it's more bastard than I can willingly put in power over me. Resetting the scale means we hold politicians to a fundamentally scummy standard, and that's not only unreasonable, but directly against our best interests. Furthermore, acceptance of a lower zero point means they will push the boundaries of how much corruption they can get away with, slowly dropping the facade that they work for the people at all.

    If it means "burning the house down because there's a stain on the rug" with a Trump presidency, I will still not back Hillary. I'll hold out hope that if things get bad abruptly rather than slowly, more people might get fed up with the system that set up that horrible binary choice.

    But it's still not time for the nuclear option. Just because Sanders endorsed her doesn't mean he conceded his candidacy. There is speculation that he did it as a formality to keep his delegates and contention in the DNC. In which case, he's still in the fight and offers a vote that doesn't turn my stomach.
     
    #60 Argentwing, Jul 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016