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been thinking

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Matto_Corvo, Jun 5, 2015.

  1. Matto_Corvo

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    I know it is widely accepted that you are born trans. That hormones just screwes you over in the womb. I for one support this theory.

    I also believe that the environment we were raised in can affect us as well. Imagine being raised in a situation where you were told that a male/female had to act in a certain way, and if you stepped outside the accepted parameters than you were horribly belittled.

    So a girl not acting a girl enough. Now add on to that this girl being well end owned in the chest area. From a young age the girl was picked on for the size of her boons, and which each cup size it only got worse. This was a source of great angst and depression for her. Eventually she just wanted to get rid of them all together, of course conflicting with this is the fact that men like women with boobs. Girl is torn, but in the end she always comes back to wanting them gone all together. She was jealous of those who lost their to breast cancer, she could not see why they were so upset over the lose of them.
    The more she thought about such things the more she wanted a hysto as well. Periods were a pain and she didn't ever plan on having kids. Child birth was more pain and trouble than she was willing to go through. At this time she wished she had simple been born male. She was a failure of a girl. As she grows into an adult the thought stays with her. She knew a male body would not make her a 100% happy, but neither would the female body. The girl started feeling that she was genderless, gender did not feel real but a mere mental and social construct.
    The girl wants to transition. Remove parts of her body, take hormones to reduce curves, get rid of being called she.
    In this way she is trans, though others would beg to say other wise.

    Of course this is just one example.
     
  2. Eveline

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    The question is, if a person can theoretically become trans, what is stopping us from becoming cis? Why should we even go through this fairly painful process of transition if there is a chance that over time we might learn to identify fully with our gender.

    I'm sure that some people truly do believe they are trans because of traumatic life experiences. However, they are exactly the people for which the safety nets are set up to save from transitioning. The reason is that when a person transitions to a gender that is different from their innate one, they will usually find themselves in the exact same situation as someone who is actually trans and would consequently start suffering from gender dysphoria.
     
    #2 Eveline, Jun 5, 2015
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  3. BradThePug

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    I think that environmental factors can make a person realize sooner that they are transgender. For example, if somebody lives in a house that has very rigid gender roles it is more likely that they will realize that something is different before somebody that lives in a house that is more fluid with gender roles. I think that this theory implies that there would be a way to make somebody not be transgender. If you try to force a transgender person into the role of their birth sex, that usually does not work out well. It usually makes them more and more uncomfortable over time.
     
  4. Tai

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    "If you try to force a transgender person into the role of their birth sex, that usually does not work out well. It usually makes them more and more uncomfortable over time."

    So with my case, as a child being forced to wear girls' clothes all throughout elementary school, if I were cis I wouldn't mind wearing them? And if I were trans I would push away and try to become the opposite?
     
  5. BradThePug

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    I was saying this statement more towards people that will try to force transgender people into the role of their birth sex after they have come out. I assume that it could work for transgender children being forced into a role that they feel uncomfortable with. If you were cis, you may be less likely to not mind wearing them. There are always other reasons why you could feel uncomfortable wearing clothes.
     
  6. Matto_Corvo

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    Not saying trying to say that there is a way to turn someone cis.
    And by all means this person may of been trans all along and never knew it.

    It was just a thought. Though I also think there are people who would be fine as one gender or the other, so long as who they are as a person stays the same.
     
  7. Acm

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    From what I've read, most of the science on the subject points towards gender identity being biological, and not caused by your environment. Of course there's no definitive answer for what causes it yet, so it could be right.

    I have heard stories of people who transitioned due to issues with trauma or upbringing, and ended up detransitioning. It's also possible that there's people who transition for these reasons and end up fine, and we just don't hear about them like we would the detransitioners, so once again it's not necessarily conclusive evidence.

    There's trans people that were raised in houses with very strict gender roles, and people who were raised in homes with none at all. So I don't really think stuff like that has an effect. I'm inclined to believe that it's caused by biological factors, which is also why you can't stop being trans either, it's innate.
     
  8. Matto_Corvo

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    I hope one day they find a way to test people to know for sure. Maybe then we can all be raised in the way right for us and trans individuals can start transitioning before puberty changes them to much.
     
  9. Acm

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    Yeah that would be nice. Then there wouldn't have to be all that "am I REALLY trans??" doubts that a lot of people seem to have. I always wish I could've realised I was trans earlier, and maybe have been able to go on blockers or something like that.
     
  10. Michael

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    What if instead of a test we get a more open minded society where a kid is seen as a human being, and his or her opinions are taking into consideration?

    What if we get a society where a mothet or father accepts the possibility that the kid is homosexual or trans, and instead of trying to change the kid, tries to do what's best for him or her?

    What if we educate the children to see gender and orientation differences are completly normal, so when they grow up they'll teach their kids to educate their kids the same way?

    On such a society, that medical test wouldn't be needed, and we would have all the benefits that would come with it.
     
  11. Matto_Corvo

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    That is all true.
     
  12. Matto_Corvo

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    I've been thinking about this a lot because it is a good thing to ponder over while exploring gender.
    I think we can all guess that the scenario I gave was based a bit off my own life. I was always a chubby kid so my chest had bumps from an early age, though it wasn't till 4th grade that I started wearing training bras. It was also then that I started wearing more typical girl clothing. Not because I wanted to, I was fine with my brothers' hand me downs, but because my grandmother decided it was time I started acting like a young lady. I can remember from a young age that female clothing made me uncomfortable, something I attributed go being to tight. I would try on several pair of jeans before sticking with bootcut ones because they didn't feel so soffucating.
    So in 4th grade I really began to develope and some of the boys in my grade would pass by going "got milk". I do believe that would make any girl ashamed and uncomfortable, more so if you were like me and didn't unstand why they would associate milk with boobs.
    As for being stuck in gender roles. My dad did expect me to act in a certain way and pointed out every time I did not act in a girly way. I remember several times were I had to go through what I called training sessions. I would have to walk up and down the hall in till my dad was satisfied that I was walking like a girl, the whole switching hips thing, because my natural walk was very boy indeed. Most of the time these sessions ended I disappointment and tears because I did not understand how to walk like a girl. I was also to rough for a girl , so I was forbidden to play sports or wrestle with my brothers and was put in gymnastics. I wasn't very flexible so I tanked in gymnastics which my dad held against me as well as he insisted that girls needed to be flexible. As far as dressing went, I was allowed to wear jeans mostly and I was never forced into a dress past a certain age. I did have to wear a skirt go church, I also wore a skirt to a school dance to.impress a boy even though I was uncomfortable in it, and I hated dances.
    On the weekends that I was at my mom's I was given free range to be me. My mom and her sisters had grown up in the country were tomboys were expected. They saw nothing wrong with me wanting to do everything the males in my family did, and they would even tell stories about my aunt who use to sit backwards on the toilet and pretend.to.pee like a boy.
    I played with toys like Barbie's as well as toy trucks. I like boy and girl things. At school I shunned the majority of girly things because I thought the boys would pick on me for liking them. I only started wearing pink when the boys in my class wore it as well. Makeup and girly things were my guilty pleasure. I had a mix of friends but I admit the boys were the one I had the most fun with, but it was the girls I hung out with.
    These are things I remember from my childhood but there is a lot that I don't remebsr, and something's I only remember recently.
    I remember sitting in the bathroom when in was 10 trying to comb my hair like my brothers and getting frustrated that it didn't work. I knew not to ask for short hair or else I would get the lesbian talk my dad had given me when I declared myself a tomboy. I remember asking when my voice would crack like my brothers' and being told it didn't happen to girls. I was disappointed. I remember that I got over the got milk comments and was fine with my boobs till they got to big for me to play sports in PE and recess. It was a sad moment because I knew my only option in life was to embrace the girl life. I tried to dress like other girls but my clothes needed up usually involving cargo and t shirts.
    There was a traumatic event in my pass. From seven to thirteen I was sexually abused by my father, as were my brothers. Of the one thing I am sure, that has nothing to do with me questioning my gender. In fact I never questioned my gender till I had been living with my mom for a year. It began buying a shirt, what could be described as a boy's skater shirt. Of course, logically I found many reasons why I wanted. I liked the style and it had a dragon on it that matched a pair of cargo pants I owned. My mom's only concern was that the shirt I choose might he a lil to small. I didn't know what she meant till I tried it on at home. It was way to tight around my chest. And now boobs have ruined wearing clothes for me. Though it was more than that. In my head I was rather flat chested so in the mirror the imagine didn't match up and it left me feeling weird in a way that I couldn't and still can't put into words. It was that moment I was thinking of when I learned about transgender, as well as a few other things. But a few things didn't add up to the narritave I heard, like I never wanted a penis. To have one was an interesting thought, I certainly wouldn't of minded. What I had was so awkward and I hated having periods. Starting my period was one of the great disappointments of my life. I thought it would make me more girl like but if anything I felt more different, from both them and the boys. As i questioned I also realized that I didn't quite understand what if meant to be a girl, nor did I understand what it meant to be a boy. I was always able to fit in with everyone to a degree.
    If I was uncomfortable during my teenage years I blamed it on being fat, or the socially awkward kid at a new school, or being to poor to afford brand name clothes. If I felt uncomfortable with my new name I said it was because it was a.common name a lot girls had, Stacy Nicole. Everything I felt I could explain away.
    I was 16 when I wished I had been born a boy. I had always been jealous of boys, but I felt that was normal for any girl. Boys were lucky. Me wishing to be a boy stemmed from the growth of facial hair. Growing hair had always been a source of unease for me. Since a young age I thought girls never grew body hair, that I did made me feel like a freak. And it wasn't till I shaved it off that I realized I liked the hair, it was beautiful in its own way. But in had to shave because I was a girl. High school saw me hating my boobs in earnest, not because I was picked on for them but because I hated looking at them in the mirror. They were big and sagged and drooped. I felt I had old woman boobs. No guy would want me with boobs like these. I actually wanted them removed all together but I knew a boy wouldn't want me without boobs. So I thought a breast reduction would be the key, but I could never afford one. The growth of facial hair I guess gave the feeling of dysphoria that most mtf feel at that age. I am a girl, I shouldn't have it, why is if there? I thought everyone would notice it, even though no one ever did. The only reason I wore makeup was to.cover it up. Funny enough, make up made me recognize myself less. It was like looking at a girly me that wasn't me. The only thing I cared for was eye make up, eye liner and mascara. By time I was picked on for my boobs again I had pulled myself out of my depression though I did wear a hoodie year round. Probably because I was self conscious about my weight.
    Once out of high school you could say things evened out. I didn't question my gender. Why would I? I was losing weight, and in was under the impression that my boobs would shrink majorly. They didn't. They went down a cup size which left me at a DD. I wore more makeup. Mostly to cover up facial hair and pimple scars. I only wore.foundation and eye make up though. I also had a health issues going on. Once they were dealt with I started thinking of my future I wanted to go to college, move to the city, find a boyfriend. The one thing that I have noticed is that in all my futures I switch from girl clothing to men's. My want to wear men's clothing was always coming and going.
    To be honest, I'm not 100% sure what made me question my gender this time around. I was at an animne convention, I put on a wig, and boom I looked like a boy. I could of liked it so much because it was the look I was going for, but whatever the reason it had me thinking about a few things. I did research and came up with gender fluid. I was happy enough to leave it at that. But it didn't stay at that. For the last 2 to 3 months it has been ever present thing in my mind, this want and desire to be a boy. For 2-3 months I have looked in the mirror and seen a boy. I close my eyes and..well the outline is a mix of male and female though mostly male. I have given in to the desire to dress male and have never been happier. The only problem being to expect to see a flat chest when I look in the mirror and see these floating balls of fat. It seems no matter what I do.I keep getting flashes of my body being male. In my teenager years....I was going to say be distress, but in honest in had had flashes of feeling male then to and I had never minded those moments. Only when in was trying to be the best girl in hopes for a boyfriend did I shove those moments away. These days I love those moments but am also sadden by them because I know I am female.

    You make an interesting point, I can one day relate.to my assigned sex. I am not one go rush into a large decision and I would hate to transition for all the wrong reason.

    My boobs have to go, I just can't keep them. I have and always will hate them. But that surgery is expensive. So I will settle for a breast reduction for now. My insurance will cover most of that hopefully due to size and chronic back pain caused by them.

    Someone asked my once how in felt about looking in the future and seeing myself as girlfriend, wife, etc. All I can think about was when my nephew was born. I was called an aunt. I hated it. I don't know why, I just did. He calls me StaSta in stead. I've always had a hard time picturing myself as a wife, maybe because I could never picture myself getting married, no way would I wear a dress. I use to be fine with girlfriend, but I have never been called one so I don't know. Right now it is just a word for me. Mother is not a term I am comfortable with, I have no desire for children. I have been called daddy by my nephew and that I did not mind.
    Since I've started picturing a life as male I have found I want it more and more. I don't know why, and I guess that scares me.
    I am trying to take steps back, slow down and take my time. I'm only 23 and there is no rush. But I have found that whatever made me feel 'girl' in the past just is not there any longer. And I say girl because I have never felt like a woman, and calling myself woman just always seems weird. I also find that the more I slow down the stronger the desire pushes at me. In try not to think about it so it invades my dreams.

    And there is a.voice.in the back of my head, one that has been there all three times in my life that I have spent prolong time wishing to be male. A voice that says I can't be trans, a voice that says I could not be lucky enough to be male. I'm just a cross dresser. I just want smaller/no.boobs to fit into male clothing and because I find them uncomfortable and disgusting to look at. I hate my boobs because they hurt when I lay on my back and they press into my stomach like bowling balls. I honestly can't understand why breast cancer patients are upset to lose theirs.
    The voice in my head tells me that even if I am trans I would never pass. I was raised female and thus could never act like a true male. It would be clear to everyone that I was born female, and if not then I'd have to be a really gay guy.

    .....I went to a vent/rant/thinking session. My apologies.

    ---------- Post added 7th Jun 2015 at 12:33 PM ----------

    Just something else I need get off my chest.

    I have an email account for Stacy and one for Alexander (the male name I choose). I switch emails back and forth depending when checking emails. Depending on what email address is open on the gmail app is the name that appears above my contact list.
    I was walking through the store when I went to text my mom to see what ice cream she wanted. Pulling up my contact list I saw the name Alexander over the list and could feel my throat tighten and felt a wave of complete sadness/longing. I had decided that I was going to try being Stacy for a while, and to see the name Alexander made me feel like I was trying throw away apart of myself. If I was born a boy I wouldn't have to worry about this. I would already be Alexander. I would of had a different upbringing so maybe I wouldn't be so feminine in personality. There would be nothing wrong with viewing my body as male or feeling male at times. I wouldn't question if it was self esteem issues, or fat issues, or me being bored with my life. I wouldn't worry if it was my imagination over acting, the part of me that is a writer forgetting to turn it self off.
     
  13. Tai

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    We have had very different experiences, I was blessed with the smallest lumps imaginable, but all these feelings you have with disgust for your feminine aspects, I can relate to all of this so much. Always wanting to be a boy, being jealous, hating periods with a passion and feeling like the world would end when I got mine, and never craving a penis but thinking about it, would beat having a period any day. And this wanting to be a boy, I never could figure out if it brainwashed me and I started seeing myself as actually possessing male traits and calling myself transgender boy. Because yes, I do see myself as a boy now, a feminine one, with male mannerisms and such...
     
  14. Matto_Corvo

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    That's actually one of my fears. That I brainwashed myself. I really don't want that to be the case.
     
  15. Eveline

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    Caduti, Tai, sometimes we need to just follow our instinct and make the plunge. There is a tendency to view being trans as some closed and exclusive group when the simple truth is that we are all lost and trying to find the answer which is why we transition. We go on a long journey with a belief that at the end, we will find our selves. Some of us find what they were searching for earlier and others complete the journey and hopefully manage to pass. The journey is as much a psychological one as a physical one which is why therapy is such an important part of transitioning.

    Truthfully, I read your stories and see a much stronger case for being trans than I have. The only strong of evidence that I might be trans from my childhood is that I prayed to wake up as a girl. I only cross dressed once, I played with only male toys, I never identified as female... let me ask you this, does this really matter? Should I abandon my journey? Why?

    Yael
     
  16. Matto_Corvo

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    hoop 2

    this one more for tai, also need to.find it again to put in another post...forgot I had bookmarked it.

    There are more but I will have to.post them later when I am at a computer.

    I was told once that its not our past that matters. We can take a memory and twist it to our needs with out even meaning to. So instead, focus on the present, on the here and now and how you feel with in. Think about the future and who you want to be, who you want to be. I find this to be solid advice. In the here and now I am not a female, I haven't felt like one in a while. I have realized that when I think about my future now I am happier thinking of myself as a male.
    Think about it that way if you choose.

    I didn't identify as male and I'm still not sure if I do.

    I guess I'm saying don't abandon your journey. Just because you didn't know in the past doesn't mean that you don't know now. That's only for you decide. I'm not very good at given advice, I apologize.

    ---------- Post added 7th Jun 2015 at 05:00 PM ----------

    Okay so half my post was deleted in edit by accident, so I will fix that when I get on a computer and not using my phone.
    But I posted links to articles that helped me a little.
    I'll fix everything in a little.
     
    #16 Matto_Corvo, Jun 7, 2015
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  17. Matto_Corvo

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    Okay,

    I was saying that since I have joined EC and Susan's Place I have been given many pearls of wisdom. The one repeated the most is that everyone has a different story. Not everyone knew they were trans till a flipped was switch, something triggered them into thinking about. So I don't think having a typical male up bringing makes you any less trans than the next person.
    Think about all the females who grew up as tomboys and still identified as females. You could just be a very tomboyish woman :grin:, and if that is who you feel and know yourself to be then own it and don't mind what anyone says.

    here were some articles i looked at when first questioning my gender and worrying about not always knowing i was trans. Sorry if most are FtM

    One link that got knocked off

    some atypical trans narratives can be found here

    also here

    this was also helpful

    that-was-dysphoria-8-signs-and-symptoms-of-indirect-gender-dysphoria/

    Video of Aydian Dowling about how he didn't know he was trans skip to 2:10, thats when he starts talking bout it

    another video of a guy who didn't know (person in their 30s)

    some of the comments might be helpful

    i'll just stop here for now.
     
  18. Eveline

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    I'm glad that you found your answer Alexander. (*hug*)

    Don't worry, I know that I am trans, I asked the question with the intention of helping the two of you reflect on your own situation. Your answer is fairly close to what I was planning on writing next. There is no real way to prove to others that we are male or female. I can give the most elaborate description of how it feels to be female and it will still be nothing but a subjective explanation. A week ago I spent nearly 5 hours trying to convince my brother that I really am trans. I gave some brilliant observations, showing how the disconnect that I feel never allowed me to form a stable identity. However, no matter what I said there was no way to convince him that I really am female deep inside. Eventually, I asked him how could I possibly prove that I am female. He had no answer...

    We have to stop trying to prove to ourselves and others that we really are trans. It's an exercise in futility. Decide for yourself, are you willing to take the risk in going down this path? Are you willing to risk never having an orgasm again? Are you willing to risk losing your family and being the target of transphobia. If the answer is yes, then you are with all likelihood trans because who in their right mind would go down such a path if they didn't have a really good reason to do so.

    That's what made me realize that I really was trans... I spent a day imagining how the journey would go. It was a dark and terrifying vision. After I saw my family in the evening, I realized that I couldn't do it to them and decided to identify as Androgyne. However, a day later I realized that despite everything, I can't free myself of the thought that I am trans. It was still there and was growing stronger the more I thought of it. The vision was so real to me and so frightening but for some reason I still wanted to go down this path because I knew deep down that I was lost and my body just felt wrong. I knew that if I didn't take this door, I would eventually give up on life.

    I agree that we all have our own story but one thing that we do have in common is that we all feel a need, for one reason or another, to take this dangerous plunge into uncertainty and risk everything, so that we might one day feel whole,

    (&&&)

    Yael
     
  19. Matto_Corvo

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    I find great enjoyment in reading what you write. You have a way with wording.

    I know what it is like not wanting to do this to one's family. I told my mom I was genderfluid, that it meant I didn't have to transition, but even as I said that I felt that I wasn't being truthful. Since I started admitting that I was trans I had been hunting down reason to say some part of me was male, that I had a right to transition to male. I wanted nothing more than to feel even more like a male.
    I think the social part is what scares me the most, what will people think. How will they react? Will my family turn their back on me, I don't know if I could handle that again. But the thoughts of transitioning never went away. They only grew stronger. The more I pushed them away, the more they fought back.

    I'm glad you found your answer as well, and I hope everything becomes brighter for you. I thinking becoming who we were meant to be should not be viewed as a dark path, that those around us could understand this. Maybe one day they will. But at least online we know we have those will support us. Finding a support system is a much needed thing
     
  20. Nightdream

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
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    Location:
    Brazil
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    I hold the belief that transgender people are somewhat intersex, but istead of it being some sort of combination of sexual characteristics in the person's body, it's their brain that's wired in a different way that they should be to align with their bodies. At least that's what it seems to me.

    ---------- Post added 7th Jun 2015 at 08:04 PM ----------

    (Sorry, I has to answer to this.)

    Actually, a cisgender person could feel uncomfortable in being forced to their gender role, but in a different way.

    A transgender person would feel uncomfortable as if the people around them would laugh at them, thinking about how ridiculous that person is in those clothes, or getting anxious over the person noticing non-comforming behavior. Very much like most people would react by the presence of a cis guy wearing a dress. (assuming the person lives in a place where gender roles are a real pain in the ass)

    A cisgender person would feel uncomfortable because the clothes look bad, they feel uncomfortable in a physical way, they feel upset because they feel as if their right to wear what they well please is being disrespected... It really depends.

    Basically, the problem trans people have by being forced to act like their birth sex should is that they don't believe they were supposed to be in this gender role at all while a cis person would feel upset because they feel limited by their given gender role.