Are you religious?

I have a general structure to my spirituality and system of beliefs, but none of it has any kind of fixed, cohesive theology. So, in my book, it can't be called a religion. To be honest, my belief structure would probably disqualify me from most "religions" if it didn't get me kicked out or burned at the stake altogether.

I don't think religion and a typically LGBT-aligned sexuality are mutually exclusive. I know a lesbian pastor and she is one of the most intelligent, well-informed philosophers I have ever met. I know the LGBT community is constantly at odds with the religious community, but that's only because the most zealously anti-gay people in the religious community are also the most vocal and most proactive in their discontent. These are the people who treat their religion like a club that they can exclude people from. And I'm not just talking about Judeo-Christian religions either. While some other religions (I'm thinking pagan, pantheistic, etc. religions) infuse a great deal more tolerance into their doctrines, the LGBT community is not always greeted with unabashedly open arms. But that's the way it is. For now.

Things will get worse for the LGBT community here in the US over the next few years with regard to its relationship with the religious community. Our country likes to bob in and out of the hyper-conservative quagmire every couple of presidential terms. But it'll always try to even itself out. The universe doesn't like extremes.

 

When people belong to religions that are quite explicitly anti-LGBTQ (like the Catholic Church I spent 20 years in), I think the best, if not the only way to help them get through their issues to a healthy spot is to set them free from their religious shackles. This sort of Stockholm syndrome many LGBTQ people have developed toward the religions that hate them yet hold them hostage is unhealthy.

Most people just follow the religions they were raised into by their parents. So, for the same reason there are gay Republicans, many LGBTQ people remain in their parents' religions, no matter how homophobic, lest they feel they are letting down their parents once again. Religion causes these people to internalize the homophobia and self-hatred, and that's what pushes them to misery and suicide.

You can't reconcile two diametrically opposed views. No matter what anyone else says, the official doctrine of the Catholic Church is that homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered", and if you are attracted to the same sex, you are obligated to be celibate and spend your whole life alone, no relationships, no falling in love, just eternal solitude and misery. Otherwise you burn in Hell forever.

Now I wasted many years of my life closeted and messed up in the head trying to "reconcile" my faith with who I was, until I figured out that it can't be done. My mental health is 1000% better since I gave up religion; if I can save other people from torturing themselves over trying to conform to religious doctrines, of course I'm going to do it.

Religion is an artificial societal creation often forced upon people, it's not part of who you are. Your sexuality or gender identity, on the other hand, are inherent parts of who you are. When the two conflict, change the one you actually have the power to change.

 

The Catholic Church also opposes birth control, on some of the same grounds that they oppose homosexuality.

However, the vast majority of Catholics I know use birth control.

A person can belong to a church without following or believing all of it's teachings. Most do, in fact.


Most importantly, just because your solution was to abandon religion entirely, it doesn't mean that that will be the right solution for everyone. Many people go to different churches rather than just not going to church. They still change to a different paradigm, but they choose a different one than you did.

Atheism is not the only valid option for LGBT people.

 

Indeed, I am! And proud to say that I am!

 

Why do you say "women who use birth control"? They oppose all forms of birth control, not only the pill.

It's not at all unusual for Catholics to use birth control, and engage in premarital sex, and do all kinds of things the church considers sinful and still remain Catholic. The Church is actually very hesitant to make any claims about who is going to hell these days. Most people are presumed to go to purgatory and then to heaven rather than hell. But they mostly just say that, while these things are considered sinful by church doctrine, it is ultimately God that judges people's souls.

 

:eusa_clap

 

So what is the gain of this thread? Honestly, I'd like to know. Because so far all I'm seeing are "I'm right you're wrong" arguments.

 

Just saying, Mel Gibson is a Catholic so if he's the minimum standard then I think the rest of us have nothing to worry about

 

You and I both know the two are not comparable issues. Birth control is not part of who someone is. A teenager growing up is not going to go through pangs of guilt and shame over the urge to use birth control. In this society, heterosexual sex is considered a positive, normal thing, something to brag about, not to hide. Nobody is going to be bullied for admitting they used birth control.

And let's be serious: most homophobic churches, including the Catholic Church, are hypocritical to the extreme and single out homosexuality as a uniquely evil and disgusting sin, despite Jesus saying nothing about it. The churches have done nothing for decades since no-fault divorce became the law, but the moment they got wind of the idea of gay couples getting married, they geared up for battle.

People who commit other types of sins in the eyes of the Church do not get the attention that LGBTQ people do, whether they are divorced politicians who support abortion rights, or their own priests raping children.

Homosexuals are the only group of "sinners" singled out for being who they are. If you lie, cheat, steal, (or use birth control), that's normal, everyone does it, God will forgive you. But if you are gay, you have to make a lifelong commitment to deny who you are and live a life of celibacy and loneliness, or else you go to Hell. No other group is asked to do that.

Okay, but...am I holding a gun to people and telling them "You must become an atheist!"? No, I'm just expressing my views, same as anyone else. Religious people are free to disagree and to express their opinions; censoring any discussion of the issue just seems wrong.

Atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, and non-religious people in general are hated and ostracized enough in our society. I recall a recent poll showing that most Americans would sooner vote for a gay president than an atheist president. Atheists are probably the most hated group of all in this country. Coming out as an atheist to one's family can sometimes be just as frightening and dangerous as coming out as gay. The idea that religious people are the ones who need protecting from hearing any dissenting views, especially on a forum like this, seems silly. Religion is exalted in every other level of our society. Being a gaytheist is a double whammy that pretty much guarantees you will be discriminated against and despised by some segments of society.


Anyway I'm not just talking about an absence of religion. What I favor would be a greater paradigm shift than that. I believe both people as individuals as well as society as a whole would be better off if we based our society on a philosophy of reason and secular humanism, rather than religious superstition. This applies doubly, no, triply to LGBTQ people, considering how much we have suffered through the centuries thanks to religious superstition. People can achieve their greatest potential when they are liberated from superstition, when they can trust in and become unified in love with their fellow human beings, rather than in any sort of gods or supernatural creatures who only divide us all. My belief in this better world is no less sincere or devout than any religious worshiper's is. But I'm not forcing my belief on anyone, it is just what I believe.

 

Trufact. I go to a CofE church and youth groups, but I don't agree with their stances on Communion (the meagre amount of food, that you must be ordained to lead it) or gay issues.

Where in the Bible does it say that, out of interest?

In a fundamentalist Christian environment, people can be and are bullied/a near equivalant for using birth control. Teens do feel guilt and shame about it, and premarital sex, gay, straight, or other, can be something to keep secret if your family or peers don't approve.

I dispute this. In my experience, Christians and atheists (the former more in America, the latter more in England) both have it easier than Muslims. A woman wearing a hijab, even if she's white, risks being verbally abused by strangers in the street.

 

I don't think religion and hatred have to walk hand in hand.

I know many homosexuals feel victimized by religion, and rightfully so. But times are changing, and things are evolving.

But yes, I am religious. I don't belong to the three 'main' (if you can call it that, which I don't think you should but it seems established that there are three core religions in the world) religions, but I follow Wicca quite devoutely.

It helps me cope at times, to know that my faith will remain a constant fix in my life. Sounds cringey and corny, I know, but it's true and it's a huge part of my identity.

 

Where are you getting this from? As far as I know, most fundamentalist Christians aren't even opposed to birth control. That's mainly a Catholic thing.

On what basis do you dispute this? People can be verbally abused by strangers on the street for a lot of reasons. It might be easier to pick out who is Muslim based on how they are dressed, but it doesn't mean there is any less hatred out there for non-believers too.

In the United States at least, a majority of Americans would be willing to vote for a candidate from any other group except atheists. Gays are popular compared to atheists:

 

Familial experience, though thankfully not in my immediate family. Grandpa disowned a cousin of mine and will not allow her to come to Reunion because she got pregnant before marrying her boyfriend. Sorry I can't provide an objective source.

An interesting and somwhat sadenning poll. Point conceded; I read in an issue of The Times about young white female British Muslims, but although it seems counterintuitive to me I guess atheists may be more ostracized.

 

No, it isn't. That's why all the pro-life groups, which are mostly Protestant-dominated, oppose the pill. They generally don't talk about condoms, but if they were actually serious about preventing abortions, they would.

 

I'm a christian. Fight me in real life.

 

Most Protestant denominations do not believe birth control is inherently wrong, as the Catholic Church does. The Catholic Church also tends to be one of the strongest influences within most pro-life groups.

A lot of conservative Evangelicals made a big deal out of standing with the Catholic Church in the name of "religious freedom" against Obama's contraception policy, but that was more of political grandstanding than a genuine shared religious belief.

In any event, the whole idea that there are kids out there being bullied for using birth control the way gay kids are bullied for being gay is just nonsensical. Hormonal teens bullying a classmate because he is having too much (straight) sex? C'mon, that's just completely backward and contrary to reality.

You won't get bullied for lying, cheating, or stealing; you will get bullied for being gay. And the church is an accessory to that, with its obsessive focus on LGBTQ people as sinful abominations.

 

It's a pity, really. I think it's a damn shame that people construe atheists as "evil."


I mean, if you think that decency can only be instilled through the fear of the Watchful Eye, what good is that?