technically, that doesnt really sound like a christian forum. It sounds more like a fundiementalist christian forum.
My response to A: Spoiler So apparantly you're expecting a 200 page long response? haha. I'll try not to do that. So... yeah, I don't like what you said. Part of me is really pissed off actually. But another part is saying keep calm. I really DON'T want this turning into a huge debate. I just wanted to hear people's opinions, which, admitly, will probably all be the same. But I do need to say something. Oh, to hell with it. Here's your proof. Billy Lucas Chicago News Report: Billy Lucas: Teen Commits Suicide After Being Called Gay and Told to Kill Himself Cody J. Parker Gay Teenager Kills Himself In Wisconsin | Slog Seth Walsh Bullied Tehachapi gay teen Seth Walsh dies after suicide attempt : Yobie Benjamin : City Brights YouTube - Seth Walsh 1997-2010‏ - oh, and this is with his mother. Tyler Clementi Suicide of Tyler Clementi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Asher Brown Autostraddle — Gone Too Soon: 13-Year Old Gay Texas Boy Driven to Suicide by Bullying There are others, but I figured the amount I provided are enough to show you that yes, it was bullying that forced them to kill themselves. How you can't think that is a crime, I don't know. I feel like I'm searching for water in a desert. Part of me wonders why I always come back here. I mean, I really do care about you guys, but every time I come back, I'm disappointed. How someone can not think 9 kids pushed to kill themselves is not a crime seem insane to me. I want to stick around, but the zero amount of tolerance is making it hard to. Sorry, rambling again. I was halfways ready to call him a bigoted mother f***ing bastard, but I didn't think that would get me very far.
I just want to say that I'm so proud of you. It is incredibly brave of you to voice your opinion in a place you're almost sure to be attacked. I was touched by your eloquence in the original post. I don't think I would have been able to stay that calm, especially at 15. The guy's response is disgusting and hurtful and cruel and a thousand other negative adjectives, several of which are inappropriate even for the Internet. Even if you don't understand that homosexuality is a choice, I think it's a very telling portrayal of your character if you are actually okay with suicide, which this "A" seems to be. Two years ago this Thanksgiving, one of my childhood friends killed herself. It was one of the most painful and numbing things I've ever gone through trying to figure out why why why a person could be driven so far. And she wasn't even gay. Even for the most bigoted fundamentalist Christian, that kind of language is shocking. You're handling this really well.
Thank you, steel03. I'm trying my best. I just feel like I have to do this. At least when I'm done with the site, the posts will still be there for everyone to see, especially new members who are trying to understand who they are. I wonder what would have happened to me if I had seen posts like this a few years ago. I probably would have come to accept myself a lot quicker, and been happier for it. Two new posts everyone. B (the guy who pmed me): Spoiler Hey Kanen, thank you for your courage in bringing this issue up. I also hope that this thread does not get deleted or blow up into a theological fight. What I share below is purely my point of view. I support you Kanen, in your attempt to let people see that LGBT people must be accepted just as straight people are. I believe that the bullying which LGBT teens receive at school is absolutely horrendous. I have seen it happen and it is disgusting. How a person treats minorities, whether they be sexual, ethnic, or religious, speaks volumes about the essence of that person. Same can be said for societies as a whole. I agree that something needs to be done. We as Christians should not sit back and watch LGBT people be driven to suicide, no matter what the reason - even if the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. Because that is definitely not what Jesus Christ has taught me to do. And because we are fellow sinners too. Jesus defied the law and social customs by healing people on the Sabbath and by saving a prostitute's life, among many other things. Similarly, I will try hard to defy whatever law or social custom that stops me from accepting LGBT people exactly as they are. Because they are God's created people and they have feelings just like everyone else. I am not a certified moralist. It is not in my position to judge someone's sexual orientation. Because only God's judgement is perfect. Jesus calls me to love, and to love wholly. To Kanen: People fear what they don't know. And people tend to behave/judge negatively the things they fear, especially things which society has deemed unacceptable - such as being gay. Please don't leave this community purely because of the opinion of its members against LGBT people. Many of us, myself included come from conservative places and have grown up with a good dose of homophobia. Forgive us, because we don't know any better. Please be prepared for having very little impact, if any, on the opinions of people anywhere. I don't mean to look down on you, but I hope you can learn to learn great things from everyone while refraining to return their negative judgments. That's one of the most important things in life that I had learned through my experience as a minority. To all: Talking to a gay person and visiting a LGBT group was a great experience. I encourage you to do it at least once. More understanding -> less fear -> more acceptance and respect for our fellow people. Let's leave the judging to God alone. This post made me really happy. He seems like an all around good guy, and probably one of the few allies I will have on the site. C: Spoiler I agree that we should love them and not judge or bully.. they need to know that God loves them right now where they are. I saw a group of Christians that went out to a gay pride thing or something, and stood next to the "God hates fags" posters and instad held up "God Loves You" posters. I think that is powerful and would even enjoy doing something like that. However, Jesus called out the Pharisees on their sin because they claimed to be servants of God, but lived in life-style sin. Should we also not correct our brothers in Christ when they are also living in life-style sin? Kanen, I know that you have been raised in Christ. I don't want to come across as judgemental or as having hatred to you or anyone else because I really don't. I dealt with attraction to the same sex, so though I haven't been in the same situation as alot of LGBT teens, I at least understand some of the fear and confusion. I prayed about it for a long time and God revealed how dishonoring it was to Him because of how he created man and woman to be together. The beauty of sexual intimacy the way he created it. When Jesus went to Matthew, Matthew was a tax collector. He looked at Matthew right where he was at, and said "Follow Me". I want to be clear that YES God loves you right now where you are at and is calling your name! When Matthew heard this call, he got up and left. He left his old lifestyle. He stopped living as a tax collector and followed Jesus instead. The act of following Christ means dying to the old self and receiving the newness in Him. I know people who were gay before knowing Christ, but as they made that decision they put off the old self and put on Christ instead. I suppose my goal of everything I said is just to show you where I stand. I love you and other friends I have that call themselves gay. But I don't support the lifestyle. I support you, but I pray God reveals the beauty of letting go of this identity in being gay. This girl is one of people I am hoping I can get through too. Obviously she has feelings for the same gender, she just hasn't accepted it yet.
B really sounds like a good guy, I wish there were more people like him in those forums. C actually scares me a little bit. Forbidding and surpressing one's feelings can be psychologically very harmful, I've seen it happen. You talking to her would probably be good for her.
So my response to the last two comments. (Sorry for any spelling mistakes. My comp is messed up so im writing this on my phone) Spoiler Thank you both for your replies. B, your words made me tear up a little. They were so kind, and meant so much to me. I really and truly do want to stick around here, and yes, I do realize I will probably not have much affect, but the little amount that I could have seems worth it to me. I want to get my story out there for all to see. You guys may not agree with me or accept that the love I could feel for another man is just as valid in God's eyes as a heterosexual love. And trust me, that love is there. Why else would so many LGBT people be pushing for marriage equality? But at least I van help provide both sides to the argument. To C, thank you for what you said, even if I don't agree with much of it. I have seen God's beauty, his love, and trust me, when I accepted who I was, God truly showed how amazing he could be. I count my orientation as a blessing. It has made me a stronger person, and a better man. It, to me, was a gift. I remember the day I finally came to accept it. For years before, I had been crying myself to sleep at night. I sank into a deep delression. I felt that every thought I had, every little crush I felt myself developing for someone was a terrible thing to God. A lot of the time I felt like God did truly hate who I was. I would stag awake in my bed praying that he would take these feelings away, that he would let me like girls, not boys. That I could be normal. But no matter how hard I tried, no matter how hard I push myself to do so, I could never feeling anything more than platonic feelings towards girls. How could something that I had tried so hard to get rid of, had made myself miserable fighting off, something I wished away every second of a day, but never went away; how could something I could not change, no matter how hard I tried, be a sin to God? Doesn't sin require a choice; a person chooses to sin, right? Well I certainly did not choose this. I never would have chosen this. So how could it be a sin? And so finally, when that day came, it was very likely the most beautiful day of my life. God's voice seemed to speak right to my very soul. You are prefect, he said, just the way you are. Just the way I made you. And it hit me. I was just fine. God did love me. I could be gay and still be Christian. I could have a life, get married to an amazing man, raise beautiful children, grow old peacefully. I could be happy. That, my friends, was beauty in it's highest form. And I am forever grateful to God for showing it to me. Since that day, life has been amazing. I accept myself for who I am and live each day to the fullest. Since that day, I have grown ever closer to the Lord. His love is so amazing, and I praise him everyday for the chance to get to experience it. Knowing that I am just the way God wants me to be. I'm not intending this to start a debate. I am simply sharing my experiences in what it is like to be both a homosexual and a Christian. And it is beautiful. I'm sorry I sort of veered of topic from the original thread, I just felt like I had to tell you guys about how I felt. Please, do keep replying. I want to hear a lot more about what you guys think. And yes, I will be sticking around. I may not bring much change, but at least I am doing what I feel called to do. Thank You -Kanen
Wow. That reply was very brave! I mean, your story is so beautiful and well written (apart from the spelling mistakes caused by your phone)! But I can see how those fundamental Christians are turning red when they read that because the things you said are so far from what they believe in. Or, the only thing that is far is that you will be starting a life, getting married and having children with another man, not a woman. But for them it's something very difficult to understand. I sincerely hope that they read your story at least twice through and think about it before they reply to you. I am very happy for you and glad that God spoke to you and showed you that he created you just the way you are. For heterosexuals this is for some reason very difficult to understand. I wish God would speak to them too. Kanen, I really think you can make some difference on that forum. If you can't change all of them to believe that homosexual love is a gift from God, you can at least help those homosexuals who are struggling with their faith. What those people need, is someone who understands and can support them - not a bunch of homophobic Christians who tell them that they are sinful and they need to change.
Good Job Kanen, I loved your responses to all their replys. I really think you can make a difference on a forum like this. Because most gay people who have accepted who they are, avoid places like this like the plague. I think that even if they say they don't believe what you are stating, what you say will at least get them thinking. I think fundamental Christians just need to stop burying their heads when they hear something that is different from THEIR beliefs. Maybe just maybe their beliefs are not right. I agree with most of what you have said and I say kudos to you for being brave enough to stay on a forum like this. Stay strong Kanen!
New replies everyone. Sorry for the long wait, I've been away at camp. B: Spoiler Thank you for rising up and sharing yourself with us, Kanen. I can never experience what you have experienced. But I will try hard to put myself in your shoes to see the world as you see it. I will try hard to treat LGBT people with the same love and respect as I would treat anyone else. Because they are God's children like everyone else, so they deserve it. I will try very hard to accept you kanen, for who you are, and will let God alone be the judge. (I say "very hard" because society has conditioned me with lots of homophobia) Thanks again for sharing and putting up with us. I sincerely hope you can love and respect us, even though we will very likely continue to slander you (either by writing or in our minds) and disagree with your views (and judge you for it) simply because you are gay. (Sorry, I tend to say things as they are.) Let's try not to forget Jesus' sacrifice for us and let's continue to live for God and know Him more through His word as well as through others. This being said, for us who know that God created us straight - this is no excuse for us to try bisexuality, homosexuality, and other sexual deviances. This is clearly NOT God's plan for us. As for those like Kanen who claim to have always been gay, and are completely sure of it inside out, let's not judge them for it. Same goes for those born with ambiguous genitalia, hormonal deficiencies etc. (Intersex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) They deserve our love and respect too. Also, I strongly disagree with LGBT people having pride in their sexuality. This is just as bad as straight people having pride in being straight. White pride and black pride groups in North America are blatantly racist. I believe sexism is as bad as racism. This thread will probably have a ton of conflicting comments. I don't wish to argue, so I am done C: Spoiler here's my question though. I don't want a debate, I am just confused. I believe that you, Kanen, believe with everything you have that you are correct in saying that God has no problem with homosexuality. But I believe with everything in me, with all that I've studied and read and prayed, that it is not God's plan or design. Why would we, both claiming to be growing closer to Christ daily, both claiming to have prayed and studied it, have conflicting conclusions? I can tell you right now it's not due to any kind of homophobia... I have friends who consider themselves gay, I'm not afraid of it, I just sincerely think there are underlying issues and causes... I know God loves you right where you are and for who you are, but I also know that WHO you are is not "gay". WHO you are is in Christ. Also.. just because something is natural, easy or comfortable for us doesn't mean it's ok or the way God designed us... it's not ok for me to think of others with lust, it's easy and comfortable for me to give into that temptation, but it's not ok... Please understand everything I just said, is not me trying to bash you. I'm asking questions. I don't get it. I don't understand how it is "ok" to be gay. I went ahead and discussed this more with others actually. I know that what I believe lines up with Scripture... God did not create people to be gay. I'm sorry that this has been such a struggle for you that you've decided to simply accept it as fate... but I believe there is still freedom in Christ from what God declares as unholy... I have had to die to things that have been a part of me my whole life. I could of simply decided it is "who I am" and that God must of created me this way... but I know that's not true. Our purpose in life is to glorify Him and serve Him, and to deny the things of this world that have enslaved us. I just wish you understood that who you are has nothing to do with being gay. It's something so much more amazing and beautiful... Yeah so, B is still cool. And I think I really do have a good chance of helping C. But I need you all's help. I can't do this all alone. I need more than just my brain. Any ideas on what to say would be nice. PS still writing on my phone.
The Bible never says that marriage is now and forever only between one man and one woman. It gives that example (as well as multiple wives/concubines) since that's the vast majority of relationships, especially 2000 years ago. Read those passages about marriage (as well as anything in the Bible) for its lesson. I believe the lesson of leaving your parents to join with another human and making them your spouse applies equally to gay and straight people. Today most people get married out of love and attraction instead of arranged marriages to build wealth and make alliances between families as I think was common long ago. I don't think the Bible is against homosexuality anymore than it's against heterosexuality. There are more passages that denounce male/female sexual acts than passages denouncing same gender sexual acts. In both cases, again, we need to read for the lesson. The lesson for both gay and straight people is that rape is always banned, and we should not engage in sexual acts that are part of idolotry or lust. It does not forbid loving sexual relationships and that can be applied equally to gay and straight people. People should be true to their own natural sexuality and not fight against the way God created them. Do some reading on the Centurion and his "servant". I agree with the theory that he was really the Centurion's male companion/lover and Jesus knows everything yet he never rebuked the Centurion for their relationship and he even healed the guy so they could continue their relationship. See also the Jonathan/David and Naomi/Ruth relationships. Please watch this sermon by Mel White. It's worth sharing to everyone. How Can I Be Sure That God Loves Me, Too? A Sermon by Rev. Dr. Mel White. I would like to know why some people limit God's creativity for us to ONE sexuality. They accept all the variations/creativity in all other human characteristics and combinations of them, yet when it comes to sexulity, one of the things most intrinsic and powerful to us as humans, they say, nope, God creates no variation. They believe that God creates each of us as unique beings in all his infinite wisdom, yet his infinite creativity does not extend to sexuality. That is a human restriction on God and I don't believe it for one moment. Ask the people at that board what they think of that. Many things people believe are actually human constrainsts on God, instead of God's constraints on us.
On a slightly different topic, I think another human limitation to God is the whole Universe creation. I think it's far more amazing, creative, etc for everything to have evolved over billions of years rather than a simple six day story. To me that's representative of a simple "magical" God rather than one of incomprehensible creativity. I guess one is easier for simple people to grasp yet it's closer to the stories of Greek and Roman gods (which they dismiss as myths), but it again limits the complexity of God's capabilities. Think of all the natural disasters/phenomena (volcanos, earthquakes, eclipses) that people once explained as some god causing for various reasons since they didn't understand the world around them.
Acceptence of homosexuality in christanity is based on what kind of person you are in how you express you faith. Christians accept homosexuals because christ embraced all. unchristians on the other hand do not accept homosexuals and other minorities, racial and ethnic because for them, the bible is a tool not for self-improvement, but for punishing, conquaring, and demonizing others... The real litmus test of christanity is christ. Reading through the posts by the people on the forum, it is clear they didnt pass the test.
its kinda funny ppl say that god loves you nomatter who you are, so why whold he hate us for loving who we love.
Exactly, and I believe that a god based in love does not hate us for loving other humans, whether it be in a romantic relationship or just helping those in need. Both are acts of love and love is never wrong.
Spoiler Kanen, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I, too, identify as gay. What distinguishes me from you, and our peers on this site, is that I am not christian. This frees me from the biased beliefs that accompany it. However, that does not mean I do not have some knowledge on the subject. I saw in the comments, and I'm afraid that I do not remember the name of the poster who said it, but they said that they did not believe that homosexuality was a choice- I believe Kanen will agree with me when I say that it is not a choice. I realize that your religious text says it is, which more or less requires you to agree with it- but as more information comes out (Pardon the pun) then current beliefs should and are subject to change. Several thousand years ago, Christianity taught that the world was flat, and the center of the universe- which, is true. Why should this view not change? Why would I, or Kanen, choose to be subject to a life of pain? A life where we have have to worry about losing our friends, possibly even our friends. A life where we may become the laughing stock, the verbal, and often literal, punching bag of our peers? It is not a desirable life. If I had it my way, I would never have chosen this. I prefer to remain in the background, as someone who attract little attention. Being gay is counter productive of this. I heard talk saying that as Christians, you cannot accept homosexuality, because it's a sin. Ok. But on that note, realize that in your god's eyes, all sins are equal. Think about it. If you tell a lie, your god will forgive you, will he not? In which case, your lie is equal to me being with a man I love. Why should I go to hell because of who I love, when you go to heaven, despite telling a lie? They are equal. I always find it interesting when people call it a "gay lifestyle". How is it a lifestyle? It's being in love with someone of the same gender. We should not be defined as that part of ourselves- not just a part, but a more or less insignificant part. I believe that's all I have. BP, thanking you for making this thread. I expected it to be full of mindlessness and lunacy, but it's good to know that it's at the very least, a conversation, rather than an argument. You'll like this one.
And on another note, on this site, there is a 'Guys Only Section' where guys basically talk about all the stuff they'd feel uncomfortable discussing in front of the entire forum. I've been a member of this section for years. Yesterday, I was kicked out. The admin told me he thought it was best I wasn't a part of that group for now. Yeah, I'm pissed. I'm going to fight him on this. Also, mods, thanks that you keep changing the names. Most of the time, my computer is a wreck so I'm posting on my phone, and it's hard for me to go back and change the usernames.
To Kanen: Good luck on your fight against those mods. What you said in your original post on that "christian" forum touched me. I still struggle day-to-day with my sexuality and other issues. Those stories about the teenagers that committed suicide especially hit home because I myself sometimes think about it. I know I need to stop and try to accept myself. It's really hard and I know at the very least it'll takes years but I'm going to at least try so thank you. As long as there are people like you out there fighting, it'll remind me not to give up so again thank you. As for that person called A, I think a message must be sent out that people like that aren't christians, they are bigots. I'm an atheist myself but, I know people who are true christians like many here and those bigots make religion in general look horrible, lower my already dwindling faith in humanity and they slow down the progress of humanity.
New posts E: Spoiler I am neutral in the matter if a person is born gay or not. But I believe that a person can fight it though if they are born gay then it is one of the trials god has placed for the person to grow. But that does not mean I hate gays and I believe that they should be bullied to the point of suicide I do not wish that on anyone. It is not my job to judge God judgement is perfect so I will not judge nor degrade D (he's the good guy): Spoiler so in your view, it's not necessarily a choice, but can be gone against? Where is the joy in that? I could no more love a woman then you could a man. That is not something you force. Do you choose, or could you ever choose, who you are going to love beforehand? C: Spoiler YES! Finally the loophole in your belief. You misunderstand what Love really is. Yall describe love as what you feel for another person, whether it be of the same or opposite sex. That "feeling" is not love. Love is a choice. You must DECIDE to love another person. Our love for God has to be a choice, it's not a feeling, it's not something that just naturally occurs because we're born into a world of sin. It occurs when we make the CHOICE to follow Christ and allow his power to renew us. When we make the CHOICE to love Him, the feelings are an effect of the CHOICE to love, but not LOVE itself. The choice may be difficult, it may go against what feels natural. (We all tend to be naturally selfish right?) But we can make the CHOICE to go against what is natural. And believe me, there is joy. For years I was a slave to porn and masturbation. Now that (with God's power) I have gone against this thing that was natural and easy for me, and made the choice to love God instead, I am filled with joy and peace that I never experienced beforehand. Remember, this site is for addiction.
We have several several new posts. Sorry, I've been busy. Kanen: Spoiler Choosing to love someone is one thing. Being able to love somone is different. c: Spoiler The ability is given to us by God. I am unable to love others by myself... it's God's love within me that gives me the ability to truly love another human. I still feel as though I have yet to grasp true love... it's so much bigger and deeper than we can imagine, and it is most definitely not constrained to a feeling or emotion. Kanen: Spoiler So basically, by your explanation, the ability for me to love another man - just as you can - is given to me by God? Alright then. We're on the same page. D: Spoiler I don't think it's me who has a misunderstanding of love. Homosexuality is NOT unnatural. There are over 450 species who have homosexual members, including, but not limited to, penguins, dolphins, lions, bears and sheep. Of all of these, only one of them have homophobic (Or for that matter, observably religious) members. So, what you say is MORE unnatural then how I feel. Also, love is not a choice. Love is hormones interacting between two members of the same species. You cannot "choose" who's hormones you accept. Homosexuality is caused by a difference in the way we receive these hormones, just as eye colour is a difference in how much pigment is in the eye. If you're saying that choosing to follow Christ is a way to become heterosexual, what about non-religious heterosexuals? Or for that matter, what about the lesbian couple at my church? They're happy, while the heterosexual, christian woman that is my mother's friend, is a mess. I ask you this: Are you in a relationship? Married, dating? Have you? Did you see them, start talking to them, and thinking "I think I will fall in love with this person"? Did you do that EVERY time you loved? C: Spoiler Again you are misunderstanding love... I can't explain love if you don't know love. Love is God. God is love. Love is not a feeling. You are talking about hormones, feelings, etc. Those do not equate love. And, I didn't say it was unnatural. I said it wasn't right. If by "natural" you mean what the human race is born into then yes, homosexuality is natural because we are born into a world of sin. The awesome thing is that God is above that and gives us power to live the way he has called us to because it's better than what is simply natural. I have dated and been in relationships. Currently I am building a relationship with someone and you know what? Yes it has been a choice from the very start. Did I have FEELINGS for him beforehand? Yeah sure. Am I attracted to him? I found him to be attractive but I never thought of him as anything more than a friend until I realized the kind of man of God he is and how we have the same passions, desire to serve God, and work well together. I like him sure, but I recognize that as a feeling. I know that if God desires our relationship to develop into marriage, that it will happen and he will give me the strength to love him above myself more than I ever could simply on my own. But now that I understand the difference between love and mere feelings (which feelings are wonderful don't get me wrong) I am perfectly ok if it doesn't lead into marriage because I have not yet created that emotional bond with him. I understand the difference and know that the person God has for me will be wonderful, but I will have to make the effort and choice to love because he isn't always going to be perfect and he can't provide me what God provides for me. God created this kind of love to exist between man and woman because a husband's love for his wife is supposed to be representative of God's love for us. And when I say representative, I don't mean that it is equated with the love God has for us because he is still only man in comparison to GOD and God is perfect Love. But man is to provide and be the head of his wife. I did what I could to step back, remember what it was like when I wrestled with homosexuality and find the logic behind why it's "ok" and I still can't deny that it doesn't line up with God and his Word. I will not step away from God's Word. A Spoiler I really wanted to write this earlier when I saw one member write about a flat Earth and Christians believing in it. Then I saw this article in the news. Articles: July 2011 Archives ... _slur.html For anyone interested in the idea that historically Christians didn't believe in a flat Earth, nor did the Bible promote this falsity, there ya go. D: Spoiler How is love not a feeling? Are you saying it's something we can not detect? What is it, then? How do you know you're in love if you can't feel it? If it's your god's will that leads us from a "crush" of sorts to love, to marriage, how does that work for me? Is it only your god's will when it's a heterosexual marriage? My love can develop to the point of marriage. You say it was a choice- but it was a choice, after you had feelings for him. You didn't choose to fall in love, and neither do I. Question: If you believe the bible 100% and will (try your hardest to) follow it, would you kill a a gay man or woman? (Leviticus 20:13) @A: Ok, what about Earth being the center of the universe? A: Spoiler The Earth is the center of man's universe, is it not? Or do we call some other planet home and I just didn't realize it? It may not be the geometric direct center of the universe, but the idea that Earth isn't the center of humanity's universe hasn't changed and likely never will. By the way, the laws of the Old Testament don't apply to us because we are neither: A) Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price for sin and B) We're not Israelites so the Law isn't ours to keep. So luckily we don't have to kill people for sinning anymore, as Jesus already paid that price. E: Spoiler @D it is to the point I do not know. But I do not know if it is a choice or not. But the wonderful thing about god is he can change you in ways you cannot imagine. So lets say theoretically this man is born gay. I was born with autism and ADHD and I manage to over come it. What I am saying is we were given trials like homosexuality to fight it and by fighting it they have a way to come closer to god. God gives trials so we can rise up and become more like Christ.I know I have been closer to god by my fight with pornography. So I would assume they were born with the problem to overcome then again Satan has a way of warping or making on unsure with their sexual orientation. So that is why I stay nuetral but I am strongly against homosexuality. Would I bully someone in that situation no but do I agree with it no. D: Spoiler You were born with autism and ADHD, and you overcame it, but that doesn't mean you don't still have them. You're still autistic and ADHD, even if you can avoid the traits. Even if I were to overcome it, I would still have the traits- I could get married, have a family*, but I would life a lie of a life. Being with someone I love pretending to love them. Isn't the whole argument here that we're living a life of sin? Lies are sins. So I would be committing an equal sin, while being unhappy. It would accomplish nothing. I am in no way warped by Satan. I am sure of my sexual orientation. I am in no way "confused". *Or, I live alone. Hm, fun. E: Spoiler What you have accepted is that you are gay.But what you are saying is that you cannot change it. I disagree I believe you can work at it I not being a psychologist or religious leader am not aware how it can be done but I know and I have faith that it can be done and I believe that this is a trial that one can overcome and in the process being closer to god but you don't have to get involved with god nor do you have do this I respect any idea that anyone has. It is one of my fundamental principles that I do not force ideas I present them and let them do as them do as they will. Kanen: Spoiler So, this thread has turned into exactly what I didn't want it to. But, I guess that was to be expected C'est la vie. Mods, I beg you, let us keep this around. I mean, we have a debate thread on whether porn is bad or porn is good. Why can we not have one on homosexuality? Seeing, as Troy stated, many members suffer from SSA? Would it not be sensible to hear the other side of the arguement? There are two sides to every story (Joshua 22: 1-34). So, onto the debate What you have accepted is that you are gay.But what you are saying is that you cannot change it. I disagree I believe you can work at it I not being a psychologist Quite so, or you'd know what it is that psychologists think on the subject of being gay. You made refference to your ADHD and autism, both of which are considered mental disorders by psychologists, no? Well check this out: "In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better-designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting this removal" - American Psychological Assosication. They actually have a lot more to say on the subject. It's worth the read: Sexual orientation, homosexuality and bisexuality or religious leader am not aware how it can be done but I know and I have faith that it can be done Actually, no it can't. At least that's my opinion. And the scientific field's. Furthermore, research has been done on attempts to change people's sexual orientation. In 1990, the APA (yep, American Psychological Association again. I love these guys) stated the results of such endeavors are short-lived, and more to the point, are detrimental to one's health. People who have passed through such programs show vastly increased signs of depression, anxiety, and the probability of committing suicide. They then went on to say: "Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as reparative or conversion therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation." And of course, more links for my evidence: 200001 Insufficient evidence to support sexual orientation change efforts Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation Yeah, I kind of like the APA. But they are kind of THE authority on what is and what isn't true in the psychological world. and I believe that this is a trial that one can overcome and in the process being closer to god but you don't have to get involved with god nor do you have do this I respect any idea that anyone has. The better question is why a person would want to change. But that get's away from science and into theology, which we could discuss, but I feel like I should broach this topic from a scientific point of view this time around. Most of the people who seek out these 'therapies' are those whose family has told them what they are is wrong, that they won't accept it. I live in a family very much like that, the differences I don't buy into what they're saying, while some others do. But, it's bad. It's very bad. Family Rejection as a Predictor of Negative Health Outcomes in White and Latino Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Young Adults So, basically, the question is "Is homosexuality a choice". I definitely don't think it is. And I'm not alone. APA wrote a huge pamplet on it that was just dandy: Answers to Your Questions For a Better Understanding of Sexual Orientation & Homosexuality There has been a lot of research done on the subject, and though nothing is yet conclusive, findings show that it is most likely a mixture of genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences. Scientists at this very moment are studying gentic codes trying to factor out the genes that factor into whether a person is homosexual. Another few interesting articles for you: Is There a 'Gay Gene'? Pediatric Neuroendocrinology - Google Books - this study is actually quite interesting. Handbook of behavior genetics - Google Books - another interesting study. And I love this one: Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation | Functional Neurology | Find Articles at BNET Oh, and then there's wiki: Homosexuality and psychology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Now, I've shown you science. Do we know the full factors of what causes homosexuality? No. But we are getting there. And all the studies done have stated that it is far from a choice. Now, I know when I brought up science, defenses went up. And frankly, I don't understand that. I find that science is an amazing thing - that it glorifies god. I mean, science explains the wonders of the world - it shows us just how intricate God truly is, how amazing his design was for us. It's awe-inspiring to me. Science and God go hand and hand in my opinion. So I wonder how, when the scientific field is stating that something is not a choice, and more to the point, that it can't be changed. When they do study after study after study on it. When they research and research. I wonder why we dismiss such things as this. Are we really that ignorant? There's a term for that: burying our heads in the sand. I understand that theology has a lot to do with it. Given the time, I could explain how I do not believe that being gay is a sin to God. If pushed, I will. But for now, I'll leave you with the science and let you think. If something is not a choice... then how is it a sin? Sin, inherently, requires free will, right? I mean, we choose to sin, don't we? I don't understand. It is one of my fundamental principles that I do not force ideas I present them and let them do as them do as they will. I agree. That's a very good point. But I also believe in presenting ideas that have proof to back them up with. A: Spoiler don't believe responding to a 400 word response from MiniNinja with a 9000 page essay is exactly a normal level of response, PB. I hope you realize that this site is NOT a debate website and we like to discourage, not encourage it on the board. Also, you think because people here go through SSA they should see the other side of the argument? But this website in no way supports your side of the argument. We support the already popular one. Not by stated decree, by the way, but because the members here agree that way is correct and yours is wrong. But even more important. THERE ARE A TRILLION WEBSITES ON THE INTERNET THAT ALREADY SUPPORT THE BELIEFS YOU HAVE ON HOMOSEXUALITY. So why are you so determined to get write essays on one of the websites that DOESN'T buy wholeheartedly the constant line you believe? Can you not value a dissent in your beliefs? You don't see us going to atheist websites, or homosexual alliance websites, or millions of other different types of websites to tell them all our beliefs and then say, "Whoa, whoa, be cool. It's all civil here. You guys just need the other side!" No. We just want to be left alone and serve our stated purpose: TO HELP PEOPLE WITH ADDICTION. And to minister to those. I mean geez. You said you didn't want this thread to turn into a debate. Well, when you put up a viewpoint that no one agrees with and then you try to slam it down even harder, gee. Why did it turn into a debate, PB? It's just such a mystery! Instead of respectfully considering that other people may not agree with you, you continued to push even harder that you were right and we were wrong. It's a real wonder this turned into a debate thread. My goodness! I'm not currently planning to delete your response. But quit acting like we're some oppressive mod-squad ready to delete you in a trigger and you're just the fair-minded one with a differing belief. In reality, you're a person who rants thousands of words when a poster makes a few hundred words in a post but it differs from your beliefs. You think you're bringing a different point of view to an otherwise locked down website, which is true. But that's because this board is populated by Christians. There are millions of boards perfectly good for you (but you'll find few Christians there; I wonder if there is a correlation). And please do not say something like, "We can be Christ-like here" because the issue isn't whether this is Christ-like. The issue is this is not a DEBATE site and you've been coming to us with your view now and for little else. And frankly, we're tired of defending ourselves to you. Especially, when as I've pointed out, your responses are not at all proportional. I, frankly, don't know that anyone has the time on this board to respond to every point you just wrote intellectually. Not that they couldn't, I know if I spent some time I could. But what's the point? Kanen: Spoiler Okay, you want to know the real reason I come around here all the time? Why I always end up debating about homosexuality? Why I feel like there should be another side? I doubt you'll like the reason. Because, not too long ago, I was on this site everyday, hating myself for what I was feeling. I came here to find answers, but I found nothing. And no one was there to tell me that it was okay. Everyone, and I mean everyone, was saying that what I felt was terrible. That any thought I had about a person was a sin in God's eyes. That I would have to live a lie, that my life would be unhappy, because loving who I loved would be a sin to god. And it made my life a living hell. I often wonder what it would have been like to have someone there telling me the other side of the story. Someone who understood what I was going through, and knew that there was a better side to it. I wonder if those four years of hell - which consisted of deep depression and occasionally, suicidal thoughts, could have been stopped. If I could have learned to accept myself. I know that other people have come here looking for the same answers. Yamamoto, for instance, who really looked as though he was in a bad place. I feel like people like him should be able to hear the other side. Why? Because once I did, I realized the truth, and it made my life so much better. Those are the people I care about. The people who just want to know that they are okay. That nothing is wrong with them. I personally do not care about changing your beliefs, Troy. You are stuck in your ways. No amount of work on my part could ever change that, I think. I'll leave that to God. But I do believe that there are others out there who will find this site looking for answers. And I want to give them to them. And yeah, this is a addiction site, not a debate site. I get that. But for almost 2 years, this site was a huge part of my life. I can't just leave it behind, and all the people who I think need to hear it, without saying what i feel that I must. And I was under the assumption that SSA was another battle fought on this site, along with porn? I mean, I was fighting it when I was here. I understand that I am a minority on this site. 1 against a thousand. I realize that every time I go to make a post. I know that what i say will not be recieved well. But at least it's out there. At least people can see it. I don't think of you as an oppressive mod-squad. I believe the moderating team are a group of fine people - remember, I've known most of you for almost two years now. The only reason I ask you not to delete my posts every time is because the last time I made a post about homosexuality, it was deleted. And I don't want that happening again. A: Spoiler You found answers. You just didn't like what you found. Your belief is nothing new under the sun. What you feel and believe is the same thing I hear day in and day out. It's what so many people I know thought was the only way. That they were born with it and they were stuck how they were. It was years into my teenage years before someone told me, "Hey, your sexual depravity isn't who you are. Jesus can make you so much more than that. You don't have to settle for a life of sin, you can break free from the bondage that holds you down." I didn't struggle with homosexuality like you. But man. If someone had told me that, instead of filling my head with the idea that I'm a sexual creature so my impulses and thoughts were just natural, I would have been so much better off. I still struggle with the notion that maybe we're all just sexual creatures who can't help ourselves. I still have to remind myself that no, Christ can and does all things and can free me from my sin. And He does. And the difference is your view I can find anywhere. That view ^ Man. If more people could be reached with what I found out, what saved my life? Well, goodness. A lot of suffering could be saved. But you can feel free to ask God to change my beliefs. Here, I'll do it for you. God, whoever between the two of us is setting their heart on you, and whoever is matching what the Bible, your Holy Word says, please work on the heart of the other person so that their views come in line with what is Truth. There is one message of Hope for the world and that is Jesus Christ. You simply accept your lot in life and that is not Biblical, PB. As a fellow confessing Christian, you should do what the Bible says, what Christ commands, not what makes you feel good. Because in reality, doesn't sin always feel best at first? Doesn't pornography feel fantastic for a while? If God's way was easy, if God's way felt great (and in the long run it does, but we miss that with our shortsightedness) then none of us would have fallen to pornography in the first place. This site need not exist for Christians! But we all have struggles, Kanen. Sometimes the hard way, the way that makes you face who you really are? That way is the right way, PB. I've had to look at who I am in pornography many times. And guess what? I was depressed. I hated myself. So should I give up? Would that be what God wants me to do? Should I just accept that I am a naturally inclined to pornography person? Should I decide that these feelings are natural? Maybe I was born this way? I should make a pornographer/non-pornographer alliance? Afterall. Really look at your feelings about homosexuality, using the same criteria you just said: Feelings, sins, are you a sinner, suffering, being told its terrible, living Hell, all of it. Haven't we all faced that to some degree in our struggle with pornography? Is it really all that different? Intellectually? No. Whether you'll agree with me, I have no idea. Why don't you ask God? After all, PB, you claim to be closer to God. How often do you pray? How often do you really read the Bible? Is it daily? Are you fasting often? Your church attendance stellar? Is your heart bursting forth with worship for the God of Gods? Do people look at you and say, "Wow, that is a man of God." Do you find yourself ministering to the needs and hurts of others? Do you find yourself bringing people to Christ? Do you tithe with joy in your heart? Do you then give even more? You say you're closer to God now. You say you are a Christian. So as a fellow Christian, and believer in Christ, I am asking you to honestly look at your faith in Christ and yourself. Look at it and tell me, does it reflect the image of God. I'm not trying to attack you. In fact, I am often pretty hot tempered when I come in here and read your posts, PB. But somewhere from when I started this post to now, my attitude changed. I'm really not trying to attack you. But I want you, as a professing Christian, to honestly look at your walk with God. You don't have to tell me if your walk is better or worse. In fact, feel free to say, "I pass on responding," and that doesn't mean your closer or not to God, just means its private and up to you, not me. But I really want you to think critically about what it means to follow Christ. Look at the ways the Disciples lived their lives. Look at the things Christians do, the areas of our lives we walk in. And ask yourself, does embracing homosexuality really fit? Since you've embraced your homosexual side, has the areas that show your walk with God improved? Because I think that's where you'll find the answer. Because you really don't have to live this way, Kanen. Just like we don't have to struggle with Pornography forever, you really don't have to struggle with homosexuality forever. Give it up to God. And you know what? That may make issues in your life harder. In fact, I am sure it will. In the short term, its harder road. Denying yourself is extremely difficult. But that has always been the way of Christians. That was the way of Christ. And just like I refuse to believe I am a pornographer forever and refuse to believe I was born this way, and that Christ can't save me, man, I think that Christ can also save you. That He can get you through this. But you gotta turn it over. You gotta get back in the game. You're gonna be tempted to respond to everything I said here. I know you will. But please. Take some time. Pray on it. Spend a few days. Meditate on what I had to say. It won't hurt you to consider this view. If you're right, then you'll know it and God will tell you so. But if I'm right? Listen. Ask God who is right here. Look at the Bible. Who's argument matches up? And if you're a Christian, ask the Holy Spirit inside you. Take some time, PB. Don't rush to answer this. It's not going anywhere. Because if I'm wrong, then its no sweat off you. But what if you're not going down the path you're supposed to as a Christian? Listen to God. Make sure you are. Kanen: Spoiler I know you asked me not to reply so fast, and I agree with that. I'm not going to really reply to much of what you said. I will consider it. But I would like to say one thing. You have said something very similar to me before, when I first came out on this site. At that time, I was extremely confused, so I really really considered what you had to say. I thought about what God wanted of me, what the bible said, what Christ commanded. I considered all of it. I prayed and prayed for God to show me the answers. Trust me, when you made that original post, it really had an effect on me. I had to think everything out, I had to ask God for the answers. And I believe he gave them to me. We are not going to agree on this point, I know. Your words this time around have not had much effect. Not that they are not wise things that have been said, but that, I've already been there. I've already found the answers to those questions. But nonetheless, I will continue to think about what you said for the next few days. Yeah, a lot of stuff. Sorryz.
