My County just made English its "Official Language"

The Anglo Saxons were earlier than that - ended about AD800 IIRC, when the Kingdom was still divided - Northumbria, Wessex and Mercia were separate nations at that time.

I'm sure everyone understands the following perfectly

Even modern English in England has huge variants, and this is after half a century of a national school curriculum, national media and the like (and part of that is the influance of American English returning words which English lost itself centuries ago thanks to American films and TV shows). Even sixty years ago the dialects used in parts of the country were difficult for people to understand - reading some of the documents my family has from the inter-war years is like reading a foreign language.

One of my favourite anecdotes is from a book (published 2002) I have:

(and compared with the family archives that's easy to understand!).


As for learning the native tongue when moving to a new country - I can certainly understand this, to really become integrated into a countries culture you should, and need, to embrace the language their. However on the flip side when there is a large immigrant community there exists the opportunity for the people of that locality to expand their cultural horizons learn a new language by being able to converse in day to day situations in that language, and also have native speakers to teach and converse with.

America has been in a unique position in this regard - seeing such a huge influx of people from different cultures and backgrounds with a wide variety of mother tongues - you would have expected it to embrace this and have multiple languages spoken as you move across the country with the different cultures celebrated/accepted in their own way, coupled with those things which bond the whole country together (Thanksgiving, Independence Day, sport etc) but instead, from a distance, the country seams to have become very insular and scared of things being different, and even of itself - which really is a shame.

As I see it the only "new" country which really seams to have let the different languages thrive is Canada, but - again from a distance - this seams to be more of "we'll have this bit, you have that bit, you have that bit and we'll say we are one country, but only really come together for the occasional family gathering".

I guess with hindsight this was inevitable - the huge influx of Anglophones from across the world emigrating across the whole of North American meant that English became the defacto way of communicating between one another (in a similar way to Spanish in central and south American and Portuguese in Brazil).

The Scandinavians have a pretty good way of using the languages across one another's territories - i.e. they generally use their own language but under the Nordic Language Convention they are able to access official bodies in their own language without being liable to translation costs (provided they speak Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Finnish, and Icelandic that is!) - but then again the only country where Swedish is an official language is Finland (co-official across the country and sole official in some municipalities and Åland) as Sweden doesn't have an official language. Then again this region does have the advantage of Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian being mutually intelligible and the majority of people from Scandinavia speaking fluent* English (89% in Sweden and Norway, 86% in Denmark, and 63% in Finland - 97% in the UK, 95% in the US for comparison). It's really odd watching subtitled TV shows from Sweden and Denmark - it takes a few seconds to get used to hearing them speaking random sentences in fluent English which naturally don't get translation subtitles.


*Fluency to such an extent it puts my grasp of English and many of my fellow country men to shame. I've had a number of house-mates from other European countries and the only ones who you've not been able to tell (except when I slip into my natural dialect) are the Scandinavians! Being in Prague and having a Norwegian guy translating the Czech tour guides English into Spanish for a couple who were on a tour with us was also a bit embarrassing! My one regret of school is not learning a foreign language better than I did - although I will have to improve quickly to watch half the F1 races this season (which will be on the German language RTL as we don't have Sky)

 

Yes, Old English sounds so much cooler. It has a very quaint, "Lord of the Rings" type of a ring to it. Much better than the highly Franco-Latinized garbled, watered-down English spoken contemporaneously.

---------- Post added 23rd Feb 2012 at 06:04 PM ----------

And yes, with a little background in basic German, it's easy to understand the following:

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum;
Si þin nama gehalgod
to becume þin rice
gewurþe ðin willa
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfele soþlice


More than half the words are easily recognizable too.

---------- Post added 23rd Feb 2012 at 06:09 PM ----------

Or the Medieval English song "Miri it is while sumer y-last", originally sung by English peasants in late Old English/early Middle English:


Mirie it is while sumer y-last
With fugheles son
Oc nu neheth windes blast
And weder strong.
Ei, ei! What this nicht is long
And ich with wel michel wrong
Soregh and murne and fast.



Medieval England - Anon., ca 1225 : Miri it is while sumer ilast - YouTube

---------- Post added 23rd Feb 2012 at 06:15 PM ----------

But that all hearkens back to the Middle Ages. It's a relic of that time. Despite the spread of Chancery English in the 15th century, there are still pockets of areas in England where people retain certain qualities of inflection and pronunciation from the distant past.


Norwich English, for example, is according to linguists related in certain forms of pronunciation to Dutch and Frisian. But this is only natural, given the close proximity between the two coasts.

 

I thought America already only had one official language?

Anyway, I'm Canadian... and language issues are akin to race issues in the United States. Canada was founded by the French and English... so we have two official languages that cost a fortune to maintain and just seems to cause problem after problem.

 

Nope. We don't and never did have an official language. Many states have English as their official language, in fact a tad over half.

Which two-mile radius within the US? LOL.

LOL, I am not going to start having opinions on the politics of other countries for fear of jeopardizing my continued good health, mental and possibly otherwise. Don't mind me. I'm just a kitty. Prrrr!

 

I traveled to nine different countries when I was still active duty and you know what I carried a language guide every time I left the ship. This was because I was in THEIR country and they should not have to try and understand me but it was ME that had the obligation to learn their language. Its the same with the US. simply because we dont have a legal official language doesnt mean that the people moving here dont have a duty to speak English. I do think that government buildings have the obligation to have a few translators around but not to have every shred of paper listed in several languages. It ticks me off when people like my aunts not only refuse to learn English but then get annoyed because others have to help them through things due to thus refusal. I learned Japanese, some Korean, and a bit of Chinese when was traveling so the least you can do when you move to a new country is learn their own dang language.
I also support English in the work place save for translating to assist someone for one reason. While I was in the Navy and also at my work now I have had several people start speaking Spanish talking trash about me directly in front of me no knowing that my step father who raised me is from Mexico and I know everything they are saying. They think its ok to insult me simply because the are sure I dont know them. It happens all the time where a Spanish speaking person starts trash talking someone that is just trying to help them at my current civilian job all because they are struggling with the language. If it were not for the fact that I might get fired I would walk over and burn them in Spanish. As it stands I love to as they are leaving tell them thanks for shopping here and have a good day in Spanish just to see the look on their face.
Why might you ask dont I speak to them in Spanish if I know it? Two reasons one is that I understand the language just fine but when I attempt to speak it I butcher it and two is because unless I know they are totally incapable of speaking English I use the language I am most fluent and comfortable in. So yes I support EIWP rules because I see people take advantage of the idea that others cant understand them and how uncomfortable a few coworkers have gotten at a table on the ship for just the reasons I have stated.

 

Bibliophile:

There are enclaves in the US that have a very old bilingual tradition. In some places, it's older than this country. If you go into one of those areas expecting to be able to communicate with everybody, I see it as identical to going into a foreign country, expecting that everyone be fluent in English. It's kind of dumb.

 

Bilingual as in what two languages? I never said everyone needs to be fluent but you had better at least be able to communicate clearly. On top of that why is it dumb to expect everyone to master the language that is the dominate language in the US and the one that is taught in ALL of our schools unless you sign up for secondary language class? Why is it foolish to expect a person moving to a country where the majority of the people to speak English to learn that language? I am sorry but if I could learn to get by in FOUR different languages people moving here can manage one.

 

French and English in Louisiana.

Just as you ought to be able to understand French-laden English pidgin if you go into some of the more redneck French Creole parts of Louisiana. See? We clearly agree on this principle!

Because there are areas in the USA that have never been "English Only" at any point in their history, period, and YOU are the interloper in these places, period.

If a Spanish-speaking immigrant were moving into a Spanish-speaking enclave in the US, especially in a place like New Mexico where Spanish has a special status, your scenario falls apart like a leper on a bicycle with square wheels. If you go into a Spanish-speaking enclave, YOU are the intruder, not the locals.

It would make their lives easier, yes.

 

Christiaan are you even reading the arguement you put forth? I have never stated that I want english only anywhere but the work place. Secondly even in the areas that you meantion ENGLISH is taught. English is taught to every child across the US thus EVERY person born here KNOWS the language. So even if the local area speaks a second language the DOMINATE language across the land is English. Your arguement about spanish speaking areas is flawed because guess what ENGLISH is still the most common languages used and the primary language taught in schools. The whole french laden local slang is simply a dialect of english peppered with local flavor and something I find cool. Though I would hate to see official documents written in it. You are right if I moved to that area I would expect myself to learn the local dialect. But that doesnt change the basic fact that plane spoken english is STILL the base of that dialect and would be commonly understood and is what is taught to children in school. Just because there are places that have had a historical bases of a second language doesnt change the fact that as I have said repeatedly English is the dominate and primary lanugage across the US. Your argument is flawed and nonsensical simply based on what is taught in schools let alone the fact that you are still saying that everyone in those areas speaks english PLUS another language.

 

I'm uncertain as to what point precisely you intended to make with your post, but I would like to point out there is a big difference between governments implying that one language is more "correct" than others, and the fact that there is a cultural obligation to learn the predominantly spoken language where you live.

Thus, it is "cultural" jurisdiction (if you will) rather than federal jurisdiction that gives us a cultural obligation to learn one language over another. Here in Montana, you need to gain at least some fluency in English to maintain decent living standards. In, say, New Mexico or a Texas border town, it's the opposite. Spanish is the predominant language there (by far), and you really need to be fluent in it if you want to live there (as the culture dictates).

 

You are so far from being right here. I am sorry but can I ask in those places you speak of what is the language taught in school? What is the language that is required of ALL government officials? That is correct its english. I traveled to AZ to meet a friend and have several people on the ship that were from Texas guess what in both places ENGLISH is the most dominate language even if it makes sense to learn spanish as so many people speak it.

 

You still haven't proven that America is one monolithic country, with all of us descended from one progenitor. As far as I'm concerned, MY country is still under occupation by the Yankee government. I pay taxes to the Yankee government. It sure as hell ain't MY government because most of the people who hold office in the Yankee government are abysmally stupid people.

We are a large and diverse country, and I think it's kind of dumb to think we can just wave our hands and say, "domini domini domini, you are all English now." I think that things like this ought to be sorted out district-by-district, based on the needs of a given district. I think that one big uniform law that hasn't been thought through very thoroughly and doesn't have any real world examples of working well would just be a cumbersome nuisance.

 

You need to go to New Mexico or a Texas border town (not Arizona or a random part of Texas - those are separate cultures). Or parts of SoCal. Regardless of what government requires in public schools (do note: such is a public sphere and therefore separated from immediate regional and/or local cultures; it has no relevance to the argument), Spanish is by far the predominant language there (In fact, I believe 80% of people in New Mexico speak Spanish as a first language).

I'm merely pointing out that we don't need an "official" language to dictate what languages we must learn - our local, socialized cultures already do that naturally. Everywhere - across the globe. No need to muddy everything with bureaucracy and certainly no need to espouse what could be argued as racist views on "superiority" of one language over another.

Again, not really sure what stance you've taken on this yet though.

 

Actually, I like to think that English is superior, but that is just vanity talking.

 

Christiaan where are you from then? If its the US and you dislike things so bad why still live here? If its due to age do you have plans to move when you get older? If not why? What do you mean by Yankee? I never said this was a monolithic culture or that I wanted it to be so. What I am saying is that a country without one official language is place that is almost impossible to travel and be able to be understood enough to communicate freely. Imagine if no particular language was taught in school. Imagine if a cop that pulled you over didnt have to know a common language that everyone was taught in school? Think about how that would make almost every day life nigh impossible.

Shades please stop the strawman BS. Simply saying that advocating a common language be used across this or any other country does NOT mean one thinks a language is supirior to others or that one is racist. Its simply means one has half a brain enough to see that you need a common lanugage for people to be able to interact in on a day to day bases no matter WHERE they go in the country. Also your true border town issue is STILL moot for two reason ONE English is taught in school and there for everyone knows it that has an education here and because I am betting you that even if there are a lot of immigrants in those towns the STILL know enough english to get by. Why is that? Because its what they are going to need if they travel in any other part of the country.

Also someone that said immigrants is a demeaning term can I ask why? Its simply a word that means someone that moved here from another country. Its the fact that this is a nation of immigrants who brought different cultures and ideas to this country that made us strong so why be bothered by the term? I am not saying that other languages are bad or that english is better. What I am saying is that when a language is the most commonly used one across the country and the one taught in all schools across the country you have to be inconsiderate or foolish no to learn it. I am also saying that a country NEEDS a common language to make travel and every day life liveable.

 

I never said it was - I said it could be interpreted as such. There are absolutely people who say such in a racist tone and it seems rather apparent that they are racist, and there are certainly people who make the argument for an official language who do it out of a (in my view misplaced) wish for legislated utilitarianism - and are quite obviously not racist. (I know many on both sides of the coin personally).

You're actually proving my point here . If someone that only speaks Spanish ever intends to leave their Spanish-dominated local environment, they will indeed need to be at least semi-fluent in English to get by - because naturally formed social structures dictate such. Why, then, do we need an "official" government language when a sense of order is achieved naturally? Oh and btw - many of those people speaking Spanish as a first language are not first generation immigrants - particularly in New Mexico, though I realize you were using Texas border towns as an example.



And this is why I hate politics, I get wrapped up into arguments that are excessively pointless and serve no actual purpose but defense of ego. Next thing I know I'll be rambling on about how the founders (barring Jefferson) did not want any public schools and did not, in any way, wish the legislation of a "preferred" language to ever occur...:dry:

 

Ok why we need it is simple and rather logical. If you are stopped by a cop or walk into a government building in any part of this country you should not have to hope someone understands you. You should be able to know without fail that there is a common language that is spoken and understood inside the borders of the country no matter where you go.

As for your founders comment well thank you because thats something I didnt know and its rare I learn something new about the founders. I would have to say that this is the only two areas I could find myself not to agree with them on. I believe that a common language is needed for the reasons I have already stated. I also believe public schools are necessary because people are uneducated enough WITH mandatory education take that away and well we might as well give up now.

 

Because my ancestors made a hell of a good deal on some land bought from a bunch of Indians back in the 1700s.

LOL. You didn't think us locals were just going to forget that little war, did you? I have relatives who still don't realize it's over. I'm just saying, you can't wave your hands and make hundreds of years of history and tradition vanish in a puff of smoke. The Christians spent two thousand years trying to eradicate Paganism using murder and violent oppression, and they didn't succeed at it.

Tell me, why in God's world would you want to go to a Creole area that is so redneck that they can't even speak or understand proper English? Why would you want to go into a neighborhood where the locals are so under-educated and ignorant that they don't know any English? To get mugged? I mean, honestly, most of the places you could go in the US where you seriously couldn't get by with a very basic pidgin are places you are significantly less likely to go than several foreign countries, such as Germany, where, guess what? Most educated people know a fair amount of English!

I am a lot more likely to go to a foreign country where I don't have to know a word outside of King James English to get by than I am to go anywhere within the borders of THIS country where I would have any such problem!

You would have the same problem if you were to go to a foreign country where nobody spoke any English, many of which you are a lot more likely to want to go than most places in the US where you would ever run into such a problem.

You know where I have to go in order to have any problem getting by with English? The piss-poor part of Miami, where the buildings are literally all made out of cardboard. You want to know how far I had to walk to find a convenient black guy who spoke some English, so I could ask for some directions to get to my great-uncle's house in Coral Gables? About twenty-five feet! Right there, in the most Spanish-speaking part of the Eastern United States that exists, I had absolutely no problem finding someone I could ask for directions.

The thing is, though, I regarded myself as the outsider, not the people there. When I spoke to said black guy, I used the most polite tones that I knew. I didn't have to think about it. I just did, because I knew that I was a visitor in someone else's world.

 

My only retort to this would be that the vast majority of times a person is pulled over, the officer will be able to speak the language of the person in the car - this being because said officer will have learned whatever language the car passengers speak by necessity of having a job in a place where a language other than English is dominant. My uncle, a police officer in Albuquerque, knew he had to be fluent in Spanish in order to take the position there (and luckily for him, he could speak the language quite well).

I can see your argument though. I'm just willing to sacrifice the occasional annoying case of miscommunication between persons for lack of legislation (and therefore inherent increase in liberty) requiring a certain language to be spoken.

Thanks for clarifying your utilitarian position though - now I'm out *puts hands up and exits scene left*