I’m not advocating this at all.

We need to be very careful when we place too great an emphasis on the precise meaning or syntax of any passage from the Bible, because it really is liking walking through a minefield. Learned Theologians have researched and deconstructed all of the contentious passages that you quoted to demonstrate how easily they are taken out of context.

We know for certain that any reference to homosexuals or homosexuality in the Bible is a modern addition and distortion of the original manuscript. Why? Because the word "homosexual" is modern (circa 1850) and would have been totally beyond the understanding or imagination of the authors of the Bible. What then was Paul writing about in the letter to the Corinthians? It's almost certain that he was making reference to the prevailing culture in the ancient Mediterranean, where sex would be used as a weapon of war. Historians remind us that warriors would take the conquered men as sex slaves and abuse them to maintain power and fear. We cannot possibly compare this to loving and consensual sex in the 21st century. It's not logical or rational to do so.

 

I agree. It is not necessary to "out" your son to the whole family. While it is good that you are prepared to defend him if he does turn out to be gay, there is no need to force that scenario to come into play. Do you want to tell everyone that you found out by discovering gay porn on his phone?

So before feeling the urge to erupt into mama bear mode, please consider this: When you're an adolescent boy questioning your sexuality, it is likely that a lot of other boys at school your own age are questioning you and making fun of you. The way you speak. The way you act. how effeminate you are. Asking you if you're gay and accusing you of fancying other guys. We've all been through that stage of people drawing conclusions about our sexuality, before we've even made up our own minds about our deep and personal sexual feelings. After dealing with all that kind of unpleasant pressure at school, the last thing you want is for your mother to call up everyone you know and say "yes he's gay." We all want our parents to be supportive of us, in a non-intrusive way.

I think what is important at this stage is giving him the time and space to figure out how he feels about himself, and not stressing too much about how other people might react to him.

 

You can't control if your son masturbates or not. My mom caught me twice as a kid and she yelled and made a big deal about it both times cause she was disgusted and thought it was wrong. For years i felt ashamed about something that's totally natural. Masturbating is natural and healthy and totally normal. Looking at something that violent doesn't seem age appropriate though. And like somebody else said, porn isn't a good indicator of one's orientation to begin with. Because tbh, when he's old enough and does get in a relationship that gets intimate like that i think its important to know your body and know what your supposed to do. He's young. He's at the age where he's figuring himself out. If he's gay, he'll know it within the next few years. My biggest concern is if you will accept and support him the same if he were gay or straight or bi or whatever he ends up being. I think its important to unconditionally love and support your child at this age and keep communication open, and to not be overbearing and alienate them.

 

Here goes my 2 cents. Disclaimer: I have not read all replies or material.

Why do we label in the West. (I presume we are talking about a Western world society.) Forget labels. Educate yourself as to what is means to be human instead.

I'd leave out religion altogether. Wars have been started and fought via Christian theology. I do not mean this as an insult but turning to religion tells me that one has not done their homework on what it means to be human.

Your son's feeling are natural. The PROBLEM is he does not have good material to learn and grow into a psychologically mature adult male. Take him to a museum where there is nudity portrayed in art. Sit down with him and talk about what you are seeing. Tell him your interpretations. BREAK DOWN BARRIERS. He's curious and wants to learn. Tell him that adult porn is basically rendered by people with little to know understanding of what it means to be human. Explain sexual and emotional intimacy intelligence. Yes this means you have to do a little homework.

Turn to some of the FABULOUS material available in Europe to teach about human intimacy. Such material teaches what it means to be human in a very positive, mature way.

Turn to Unitarian Universalist OWL program for young people. OWL = our whole lives, teaches young people about what it is to be human. Yes sex. This is a mind blowing program that is now being adopted in progressive public schools.

Find a Big Brother for him via Big Brothers program.

Take the shame out of what he is doing naturally. Become the "go to mom" for answers, mom.

 

Hi there.

I know he's your son and you love him, otherwise you wouldn't be here. That's really cool from you.

Moms are the best in life, but they can be a little intrusive at times, they may want to "shape" their son into what they think is right. Just remember that your son is, ultimately, another human being. Sometimes been a mother means that you need to know how to let your son have their own experiences.

That said, if you really want to help your son, talk to him about sexuality and why is wrong to use porn as a realistic interpretation of what sex is. Honestly, masturbation is a way to explore ourselves and it's very common in male humans, that shouldn't concern you much. You need to be focused on the real problem here, forget about what you know about homosexuality for a while, you need to be as unbiased as posible.

I'm currently studying clinical psychology and I remember a few things about homosexuality. it may help you understand it better (from the psychoanalytic point of view): For starters, there is no absolute answer in anything. Not in religion, not in society, not in science, because of the simple fact that we humans are limited, sometimes is better to research from different perspectives and make our own conclusions.

The question shouldn't be "are you born or done gay?" or "why some people are gay?" The question should be about what is the origin of human sexual orientation in general. Sexual orientation is a complex topic, It seems to be a choice, determined in birth and a social construct all at the same time. Is "a choice" because we humans eventually pick one sex over the other (or both) as our object of desire, however, it's not that much of a choice because is an unconcious pick. This means that is a proccess that happens without our concious intervention, during a development period that all children goes through called "Oedipus complex". However, this proccess is lived in puberty with some awareness, but the choice is already made and IT IS NOT changeable.

So how is sexual orientation a social construct? Well, it's funny, actually. The principle is pretty simple, language leaves mark in the human psyche. Children that have been tagged as "gay" by them peers or life in a homophobic ambient, have a higher chance to be homosexuals. I remember my friend that was always tagged as gay during school, his father was very homophobic and was always on his shoulder, telling him to walk straight, to stop acting like a pussy -that kind of things. He's out of the closet now and trying to come to terms with his sexuality nowadays, but the fact that this happened to him did not helped at all.

And last but not least, sexual orientation as determined at birth. Honestly, I don't know much about this, but I remember reading an article that said the youngest sibling in a family of the same couple (asumming they're all males or all females) has a higher chance to be homosexual because of some biological factors that I don't recall...

Combine all this and... ta da! you're somewhere in the scale of sexuality! This shouldn't be a problem at all but we humans like to make a fuss about something, well, so human. If your son turns out to be gay, think about it this way if it makes it easier for you: The fact the Oedipus Complex ended with him been gay, means that he managed, on his own way, to deal with language, social norms and his own existence in the best way possible. The other options was he being a psychotic -which may or may not include allucinations and needing pills for life, depending on the case- or a plain pervert with no remorse.

So what can you do to help him, then? Well, for instance you could avoid the topic of sexual orientation for now. Don't pressure him, he can't tell you what he is right now because he probably does not fully know yet, some people take days, months, other years to come to terms with their sexual orientation. A supportive male role model in your son's life that teach him what "being a good man" means can help a lot. This won't change his sexual orientation, but it will help him understand that he is a man and that his identity is not determined by his sexual orientation. It will also help him a lot emotionally. Everyone needs a role model in them life.

Another thing you can do is to listen to him, parents sometimes seem to forget that their sons have their own desires, their own likes and dislikes, their own experiences and their own dreams -they seem to think their children are themselves or what they wanted to be, but they're not. If you want him to talk to you, he needs to understand that is safe for him to be honest with you. That means that you won't get mad, or punish him, or judge him. Just listen and reasure him that he can tell you anything, and no matter what other people say about him, he has to be what he is.

One last great option is to seek professional help. Just don't fall into the scam of "I can turn your son straight" that is not possible. You need an unbiased analyst that helps your son come to terms with whatever his sexual orientation is.

Ultimately, the best possible outcome is him becoming a great human being that does good to others and love himself. Whatever he ends up being.

 

Hi DNJ,

I don't want to talk about whether or not people are born with a determined sexual orientation or gender identity. I don't want to talk about Christianity's view of homosexuality. Religious views are obviously a very personal and weighty subject matter, and I don't think it does a lot of good to try and change people's minds one way or the other about them. I would like to say that it's great that you came to EC looking for advice. Empty closets is a truly helpful and insightful community. I hope that you continue to be a member of this site, and most importantly, I hope you find the help you're looking for.

The jury is still out on whether or not your son is gay, but I'm sure that the possibility that he is is frightening. Finding out that your child may be a member of the LGBT community is hard. It doesn't matter who you are, no parent plans for their child to be gay. I don't have kids yet, but I know that every parent has an image of who their child will be as an adult. When I told my mom that I was exclusively interested in men, she cried. And she didn't cry because she was angry or upset with me, she cried because this wasn't the life she had planned for me. My mom told me that while we've certainly come far in our acceptance of the queer community, the reality is that life can be a lot harder for people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender, and that she didn't want me to have to go through those struggles.

I know that you want what is best for your son. Coming here with such an open and impartial mind shows that. And I know that some of your discomfort with your son's possible sexual orientation is rooted in sincerely held religious beliefs, but I also think some of it is because you're afraid of what his life will look like if he turns out to be gay or bisexual. You want the best life for your son because you're an awesome, strong, caring mother who doesn't want her child's life to be any harder than it needs to be. But if you're son does like men, his life will only be harder if he denies those feelings. Any discrimination from society or family will pale in comparison to him having to pretend to be someone he is not. If he is gay or bisexual, his feelings won't go away. He didn't choose to have them, and he can't choose to discard them. Regardless of your son's sexual orientation, the best way you can give him his happiest life is to be there for him. And make sure he knows you will always be by his side. Knowing that my mother will always love me unconditionally is the greatest gift she's given me, and has helped me to stand strong through some very difficult times.

Finally, know that you will have a support system in the form of this site. I love to see parent's of LGBT or questioning children post here, because there are such great examples of passionate love. Being gay does not just impact the lives of those who are gay, it also affects the lives of their family and friends. This is obviously a stressful and confusing situation for both you and your son, which is to be expected. It's a cliche, but you're not alone. Stay strong, and continue to do what's best for your son. That's all you can do, but that's all you need to do.

 

DNJ, I have just a few things to say to you:

- Bullying: You have not failed your child, but I'd advice, extremely strongly, to really press the school to stop the bullying and if they don't do anything to take them to court, if you don't wish for that move him to another school. I was stuck in a similar situation for 9 years and ended up standing at the train tracks to commit suicide. I didn't, I am glad I didn't now.
- Father Figure: You mention the lack of father figure which has absolutely nothing to do with the situation. There hasn't ever and there isn't any basis in research to show this even has any affect on sexuality, so if that is a worry, don't. It's not reasonable.
- Masturbation: I agree a 13 year old should not be watching porn or be masturbating. Irregardless of what they'd be watching.
- He is a baby still and he shouldn’t have been exposed to that. Irregardless of your opinion on anything, this is not an effective method to speak and handle your child, especially not if he has a high IQ (Speaking from experience,- Personally got tested at unmeasurable with WIC3 method, aka. 145+). Handle him, in responsibility more like an adult and teach him that, if you make children with a high IQ feel babied, things won't end up well and you'll push him into depression irregardless of any other issues you or he may face.
- I read on here where someone posted that it’s possible that the pre-teen in that post could be looking at the gay porn because that’s their only connection to a male figurative and that of course the hormones made it sexual with the two not necessarily relating.... Ludicrous, A teenager due to his hormones can temporarily be attracted or be interested in "sexual experimentation" including with the other gender, heck, nearly all teenagers go through it,- But in end only 3-6% of kids are actually gay. There has been no basis to say father figure has antyhing to do with this. (Rates of homosexuality under single parent households don't increase either.)
- I’m just torn up about it. I can’t talk to anyone because I know for a fact they will judge him based on how they treat another family member.... Well, he’s known as the “weird” “gay” family member. I won’t have that for my son. Then your going to have to make sure to step in between such judgementary and discriminatory behaviour towards your son and support him. No one could change it, if your son is actually gay.
- Gay or not Time will tell, but please make sure, that despite your believes, you DO NOT start telling him over and over again you don't agree and start quoting verses, even if your pastor advices it. We see a lot of Pastors in America and other country handling Sexuality as a malliable factor and therefor something that should be attacked or even send to treatment for it. (Despite the fact there is segnificant proof that evidence such things would has never been reproduceable and currently rebuked as a pseudoscience.) This isn't going to help your son, neither from a religious standpoint. Just because you religiously disagree, doesn't mean such methods are any more, or less effective. I just wanted to note this as this kind of behaviour is a point that so many gay kids end up suiciding over in the end.

And contrary to some others, I'll go into the bible and show you, that what the bible says about homosexuality is actually more debateable then some people make it seem, and that some bibles don't actually faithfully translate. Read it if you want, do with it what you want, ignore it if you will, I just find it important to atleast show you, as you attach a lot of value to faith.

The Story of Sodom & Gomorrah (Genesis 19)
There is no basis to say this is about Homosexuality, It depicts gang rape against (disguised as male, Looking at translation reveals "man" was both used for mankind and to say male in the bible interchangeably so there is a 50/50 chance it just means human.) angels. Last time I checked homosexuality doesn't equate rape either way. So this says nothing about sexuality itself.
When God calls homosexuality an abomination (Leviticus 18:22) (Leviticus 20:13)
These are part of the mosiac law and do not apply to current day christians. The mosiac law also contains provisions saying you cannot eat shellfish and pork for instance, which is logic as back in that day those two often would be toxic by spreading disease. - Back in that day Homosexual sex was used as a form of religious worship to religions considdered pegan.
When people turn away from God (Romans 1:26-27)
The context of "Romans 1" talks about the sins of pegan worship. To quote: " For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (Worship of something not god)
Uses of the Greek works "Malakoi" and "Arsenokoitai" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (1 Timothy 1:10)
Despite often being translated to mean homosexuality and sodomy, there is no linguistical consensus on whether this translation would even be faithfull. For instance "malakoi" has no record of ever being used to mean homosexuality outside the bible,- therefor it's translation is at the very least questionable. "arsenokoit" also has no record of ever being used to mean homosexuality outside the bible, referring to rape and prostitution in other contexts, meaning this translation is also quite questionable.

Take the conclusion you think is correct, but know that it isn't as set in stone as some might make it appear to be.

But in end, the most important thing is: Love your child.

NOTICE: I DID NOT READ YOUR SECOND POST YET, I'LL RESPOND TO THAT LATER AS I RAN OUT OF TIME RIGHT NOW.

 

Hi DNJ, I'm glad you found the site. I grew up with a single-mother and am a single parent now myself. It is a difficult path to say the least. I would echo that the number one thing is that you love and support your son. To pull that off though means also accepting him unconditionally and this could be where you might run into trouble.

Obviously you have had to set limits. We all agree that young kids should not be watching porn. Heck, I cringe just going past Victoria's Secret at the mall when I have my kids with me. You have to teach him your values. Are you able to talk about this stuff without a hint of negativity? If you have even a slight tone of disgust or unacceptance in your voice or on your face that message will also be received loud and clear. Maybe even more clearly than your words. I encourage you to really tread carefully in that regard. I grew up in a loving Christian home but I received the very clear message that I was bad, not accepted, just by how other Christians talked about gay people.

You haven't done anything wrong. You haven't failed your son or God. I would say you are doing great in your response so far. Keep praying and keep loving your kid who is obviously very special whatever his sexual orientation is. I hope you'll keep coming here and searching for answers.

Check out the book "No Ordinary Child". About a Christian mom whose son came out to her.

 

Hey DNJ! Its obvious you care about your son a lot and want what's best for him. While I do agree that he definitely shouldn't be watching porn at that age, and it is very bad that he is being bullied, I wouldn't panic. If you continue to support him and that you'll accept whatever his sexual orientation is, he'll be fine. Although I do think you should contact the school to sort out the bullying situation.
I'd sit down with him and explain that the issue here isn't that he's watching gay porn, its that he is watching porn- which is very unrealistic, and not at all what sex in real life is like. As for what you said about a person's environment shaping their sexual orientation and it being a choice, I can assure you that isn't the case from my own personal experience. Your son is not (potentially) developing same sex attraction because he doesn't have a father in his life. I have two parents that I'm very close to, and I'm still bisexual.

I understand that it's hard trying to reconcile your religious beliefs with your son's sexual orientation. I personally am a Christian, but I think that God loves everyone equally and doesn't care about sexual orientation. Many other things are sins in the Bible, such as divorce- but from the sound of it, you and your son's father are divorced right? So that isn't any different to your son being gay/bi. (Not that I think divorce is a sin- personally I don't believe a lot of stuff in the Bible, I just try to follow the stuff about "love thy neighbour".)
I would really really recommend reading the essay on this website. Its a series of six very short essays, and I think it would really help both you and your son (because if you are raising your son to have the same beliefs as you, he probably is dealing with a lot of internalised homophobia- which is an incredibly awful feeling):

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ashford01.htm

 

Staff have made the decision to edit the third post in the thread, because it came to our attention that it was largely taken from another source, both in total and without attribution. We have linked to one version of this source to preserve the content and flow of the discussion here, which many members have contributed to, but we could not let the use of another source at the beginning of the thread remain.

We value authenticity in members' discussions on the forum and we want members to be able to trust that posts are both written by the poster and written for the purpose of the threads in hand.