McCain endorses marriage ban!

My apologies, I misread your post

 

That's not very nice McCain, bad McCain, bad!

 

Damn straight we are going to "whine" over the wording... separate is NOT equal. That was established in the 1950s, quite definitively.

Or at least I am going to "whine" about the wording. Semantics matter in stuff like this, very very much. Having "civil unions" still means gay people can't get married, which still creates them as a separate, lower class of individuals, because marriage in that situation will always be considered more real, more valid, than a "civil union."

And anyway, your hypothetical union is ridiculous given McCain is certainly not going to endorse any kind of official federal recognition of gay togetherness. There is no indication the Republicans are going to move towards "civil unions" any more quickly than gay marriage. So no, let's not say for argument that all rights were awarded under a civil union given that's not in the cards in the majority of states and certainly not at the federal level, where it's explicitly outlawed by DOMA.

Plus you keep saying it's just about marriage. Granted that's what this thread started on but it's not just about marriage when you talk about gay people voting or not voting for McCain. And marriage is certainly not even remotely as simple as you make out, as biloved86 points out. That hypothetical situation she brought up happened in reality just recently in Florida.

 

I've read through this whole thread now since I knew it was going to be a tough one. There is a lot of name-calling, finger pointing, and pseudo-debate, which is all fun and games, since we are all doing exactly what our leaders do in Congress and the Senate X-D.

I think we can all agree that this particular election is extremely important in defining a persons rights - gay/straight/black/white/atheist/whatever makes you different from the norm/etc... If we look back at the ORIGINAL American Constitution, specifically in the Bill of Rights, we find no utterance of any form of discrimination of American Citizens. The sad part is that through amendments, bills, and additional scripts of law, our Constitution no longer sets the standards for who can marry whoever, who can vote what, or choose to live wherever they want, do whatever/whoever they want (pun intended), or just do as they please without hearing from the government.

The FISA bill was just passed today (7/10) which sets a precedent in that all telecoms that were previously accused of aiding the government in wiretapping citizens homes are all immune to further charges.

There's plenty of other details to this bill, which I encourage you to look up, but what does that mean for us? It means that privacy doesn't exist anymore. Our rights are severely hacked down yet again, and it's one more step towards an oppressive environment for everyone. And what's the worst part of this? Both Obama AND McCain voted for the bill.

So does this mean anything in the long run? Not necessarily. We could easily say that it's for the good of the country, to help fight terrorism on the home front, better security and proper defense. But where is the line drawn? Why have the people who SHOULD be asking these questions, our presidential candidates, not asked these questions?

If you haven't caught on already, my faith in the dual-party system is severely close to null and feel as though there is no worthy candidate to do as he or she is sworn in to do - "...preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." - Article II, Section 1, clause 8 - U.S. Constitution.

So to wrap up my rant, I know this thread was about marriage specifically, but I'm fearful not just for our rights as GLBT's, but also as being Americans.

 

Don't understand this. This thread has sparked a good debate. I just don't feel like continuing anymore tonight. My brain is fried and I need to do a bit more research before I throw more fictious facts out. :icon_wink

 

Not at all. I understood a few things about gay republicans that I wouldn't have otherwise known. Not bad things... I mean... I actually sortakinda understood their point of view, though I really don't agree with it.

 

Woah there Moose Pound.

Didnt you hear I won the award for most acurate emo radar at the science fair?

*Scans Joey* -- 'OVERLOAD'.

Oh shucks.

--------------------------------------------

Anyways, if we all just spouted our negative opinions everywhere we went, the world would be a little less honey covered.

(I actually had a really smart argument to fight back, but I'm going to wait till the morning, because it's so late that I keep losing my train of though, and whenever I find it, it's usually eating out of the garbage...) <--------- SEE!

 

I know I'm a little late to the party here, but what the hell, here goes nothing.

Ok guys, realistically, the president is not going to have any real impact on gay rights. The reason why a gay person could vote for him is because they realize this. They agree with most of his politics, and yes while I would bet almost every single gay person disagrees with him on that subject, they realize that there isn't much he can or will do about it.

Think of it this way. The most productive period for gay rights in America has come during the BUSH presidency. You don't get much more conservative/anti-gay than that. Yet still, two major states have managed to legalize gay marriage under his presidency.

The fact is, gay marriage is just too controversial for much to be done at the federal level in either direction. Neither an outright ban nor a full legalization will be passed any time soon by the federal government. This is going to be a state issue for many, many years to come.

 

What about the Clinton administration? A bill legalizing same-sex marriage was so closely passed by Bill Clinton until he was shot down by powerful people. Although the movement, like that of black rights, is going to inevitably solve itself, it is much easier when the government itself agrees with the people. Think about the 60's, it was the time of incredible social change - who was president? John F. Kennedy, a democrat.

 

Yes it was almost passed, but was it? No. Something like that just will not happen on the federal level. That was actually a perfect example illustrating my point if Clinton couldn't get it done, no one will. He carried a lot of weight and respect in Washington. Much more so than an average president.

The problem is, there is no clear agreement of the people on same sex marriage. This is an incredibly divisive issue, split 50/50 in most of the best cases, and much worse for us in some places.

Also, you mentioned Kennedy as a pioneer for civil rights, but who was president during Brown v Board of Education and resulting desegregation? Dwight D. Eisenhower, a Republican.

 

Wow... Supreme Court nominations? Federal court appointments? The Lawrence v. Texas decision was a 6-3 decision and that was when it had a real swing vote, not just Kennedy. Two people change their minds, that's a 5-4 decision AGAINST prohibiting states to criminalise homosexuality (i.e. throw people in JAIL for being gay). Bush replaced one archconservative with another--no huge problem. He then replaced swing vote Sandra Day O'Connor with a staunch conservative, which totally changed the make-up of the court. If one more non-conservative person (calling them "liberal" is a little generous) on that court gets replaced by someone conservative, that changes the entire face of American justice for probably 20 years or so. And it does not change it in a way that will remotely favour gay people (or, for that matter, any other oppressed group: women, black people, immigrants, etc.). To say the US President has little to no effect on gay rights is like saying the sun has no effect on our weather patterns.

And an outright ban of gay marriage is ALREADY on the US books at the federal level (DOMA) and has been since the mid-90s. They just want an amendment as well to avoid having individual states being able to recognise it (i.e. reverse the changes in Massachusetts and California and prevent any other state from legalising it).

 

I am 100 percent voting for Obama

Its so hard these days to find a job since everything is going up and a lot of people are not leaving their jobs. And Businesses are closing down. It took me a good 6 months to find me a new job .Gas Prices are so high also which is another thing instead of digging for new gas we need to find other ways of making gas and having our cars and stuff burning from something else. We need a end to this war this war is costing us so much money and killing so many lives. And since Iran is in the picture i know that John Mccain will go into Iran in full force and that will began a whole mess of new problems. Including a Draft and i don't want to leave my home to get away from a monster like John Mccain.


I just hope the Mccain supporters really sit down and think about why they want him for president. Because look at what Bush is doing i mean honestly do you want another 4 years of that?

Just Imagine having a family member in Iraq and Your parents about to lose their house and Your father Losing his job. This stuff is happening in our own backyard as we speak


And the gay marriage i want us to have the same rights as straights. Its a shame that half of the world is already accepting gay marriage and stuff and usa still haven't.

I know a few people who don't want to vote for Obama because he supports gay marriage Which is honestly stupid.

 

Ok I color coded things I'm going to respond to because there is a bunch I want to say.. Maybe.

There are plenty of jobs out there. Where I used to live, a small county in South Carolina, jobs were so abbundant. You just have to get out there and seize opportunities, or even create them. Check out the job market. You just got to look outside the box instead of having the 'I just want to be a ....' for the rest of my life. If you are hell bent on that, move to where the jobs are then. I just recently relocated to Washington DC in pursuit of a job (which I just got today, YES!). If you are not willing to work to get a job, then there really isn't any hope for you. And it's not the US government that is to blame, it is yourself.

Mk. Second... *scrolls up* What exactly is Bush doing...? I've stated my opinion on Bush earlier in the thread so I won't reiterate this too much. I will say that McCain is not another Bush. Just because they are in the same party, with basic same ideals, does not make them the same. I'm sure if I said, Obama = Hillary, many people would go 'NO WAY!'. That is just another ignorant 'popular' saying that is thrown about with no thought behind it. There is a difference in being ignorant and an idiot. The person chooses which they are.


Hmmm. Imagine having a family member over there... I don't have to imagine. My brother was there, and with a year and a half left in the army he might have to re-deploy. I firmly believe in this war and don't see anything good from ending it. Yea, I said it.


Let's see, I could have fun here so I will. Communism isn't very accepting of the GLBT culture. The triple no policy is just a sign of that. How about when asked about Gay people in some countries, the leader responds 'We don't have any gay people' (I know not verbatim but close enough and I think we know whom I am quoting). I don't know for certain stances in other countries.. Like Canada, Mexico, England, Pakistan, South Korea, Japan, Russia, or Iran stand on the issues of Gay Marriage but I'm sure they are no further along then we are. Just assuming (don't remind me of ass u and me). One day we will have those rights and that will be it. Why not today? Because people don't understand completely. Shit, people think that being gay, bi, lesbian is a freaking mental disorder still. So just give it time. History repeats itself once again.

That is all for now. Oh and the job I got is a Chef at the Army and Navy Club in downtown Washington DC. http://www.armynavyclub.org/ Check it out, very cool historical place that even the Supreme Court Justices dine at. I'll be cooking for them some time. Wow. (!)

 

Yes, you're right, in certain areas there are abundant jobs. Both of us are very lucky to live in rapidly growing and expanding areas (I live in Georgia).

However, that is not the case in many areas. Michigan, Ohio, Upstate New York, areas of California, etc, etc, etc... these are areas that are rapidly loosing population and jobs. Factories are closing and high tech/service sector companies are finding better homes in the southeast. These large amounts of people can't just go out like you suggest and say "Give me a Job" because the jobs simply don't exist in those areas anymore. And to tell whole regions to just pack it up and move to find a job and then turn around and basically call them lazy for not doing so is just...wierd, I guess? And even if they wanted to pack up and leave, they couldn't sell their homes because people aren't buying homes and aren't moving to areas where there are no jobs.

Why has this happened? Free trade agreements that Bush either didn't resolve from the Clinton years or ones that he created himself that sucked manufacturing jobs out of this country. And the congress (then republican) and Bush-appointed economic regulators refused to try and regulate the obviously predatory and out of control mortgage practices of our banks.

So what do we have? A big mess thanks to our Republican friends. And McCain isn't very different from Bush on economic policies. So I guess we should just elect him because he says he'll lower our taxes. Hmmm, would I either like to have an extra $100 or $200 a year (Republican), or someone who's going to fix our problems (Democrat)?

I'd rather have our problems solved.

 

Perrygay has word it nicely

Ok jebb3rs

Ok first you said theres plenty of jobs? Where if you go to a different state which costs money. i mean honestly you know how hard these days to even get a job at a fast food place? or a Department store factories i live in a area with a lot of factories and they been closing. Even Teenagers are having a hard time finding a job because people are not leaving or retiring and places are going out of business. Even if you go out of your box to find a job its going to cost money. Gas and even Bus Fair. Some people don't have it easy like most people can pack up their bags and just travel to another state and find a job .


And all this stuff is from Bush 8 years of Bush Cause this stuff

I just think its a time for a change instead of continuing whats going on right now. Especially with this high cost war.

I do have friends and family in the army and out in the war and i worry about them daily.

 

Ok... I don't see where you made a point here. Please elaborate. So basically you are telling me, it is the governments fault that people don't know how to have a savings account? What next... they should just give us money and jobs? Ok.. Communism is a fail. I'm playing this dumb because you really didn't state much.. Insert socratic method. What exactly is going on right now that is so wrong?

 

He said that I worded it nicely, so you might check my post and find out.

And another thing, you can't live off a savings account, especially when you can't make enough money to save any money. When people loose jobs through no fault of their own, they should be reasonably supported by the government and not expected to abandon their homes and move.