Transition - Perhaps my only moral dilemma.

I never said you were going to solve their issues by forgoing your food. Neither did I say you should forgoe your food.

I agree Budder, you're not going to solve issues by depriving yourself. But you may also not be helping matters both for yourself and others, by eating a restaurants. Or undergoing gender reassignment surgery.

Geeze we need a new metaphor, that one sounds retarded

"Oh I'm just popping over to the hospital to get a meal."
"What?"
"Get some new genitals."
"0_0"

 

Is your therapist transgender? If you feel that you want to transition, you don't have to let them talk you out of it.

I also have some prejudices about cosmetic surgery, but now that I'm thinking of it in comparison with gender change procedures, I have to admit that it's not that different. In either case, I think it's a personal decision about what to do with your body, and I shouldn't judge people harshly, because I can't know whether they really need it or not.


@ 11 11 11: You may be lucky enough to be able to be happy without transitioning physically, but that doesn't mean everyone is. Genderqueerness and transgenderness come in enough different varieties that there must be transpeople who are happy in their bodies without transitioning, others who can learn to be happy without surgery, and others who honestly feel that their bodies are the wrong shape, and can't be happy with the physical sex they were born with. I assume that this thread is mostly about the latter group.


If you're going to feel bad (or make others feel bad) about spending resources on transitioning, then at least be fair and complain about everything we're spending resources on. What about your computer and Internet connection? Those cost money and use up natural resources. What about the time you're spending typing on EC? You could spend that time working, earning money to send to third-world countries.
And yes, as someone pointed out, the vast majority of the world's problems are caused by unfair laws or systems of government, and you'll have a tough time fixing them by throwing money at them.

 

I can understand a little when people are opposed to government funded or subsidized healthcare programs paying for transition, when their grounds are that the money is needed for cancer patients, or something like that. I'm not sure I agree with them--I would have to go through the entire government budget, and see if there isn't anything I think could be cut instead.

If your treatment is privately funded, then you not getting surgery will have no effect on what healthcare procedures are available to poor people. Even if it is publicly provided, it will only effect other people if there aren't adequate resources allocated to provide for everything that the government is supposed to for healthcare.

That quote is really offensive and ignorant, frankly. Gender reassignment surgery usually involves a surgeon constructing genitals out of the persons own tissue, not the person "sewing genitals onto themselves." And the speaker isn't even talking about the surgery preventing other people from getting care--they are saying that asking for equal rights is inappropriate, because some people's basic needs aren't met. But equal treatment of transgender people would not interfere with progress in providing for those needs in any way, so the argument makes no sense.

I want to say, though, that I'm pretty sure the comments about people being without health care and basic needs are referring to the United States, which is not usually considered a third world country. We do NOT have universal health care, and we DO have a lot of people struggling to feed themselves and their families. J Snow is in Iowa, so the comment was probably related to local conditions, not to people far away in South America or whatever.

I think part of what underlies this kind of thinking is that some people feel that no one should have any other political motives or goals until the government is providing the basic care to our citizens that is usually expected of a developed country. That's ridiculous of course--working on issues of inequality does not prevent working on health care and the economy.

 

Faraouche: I'm not happy with my body. I am part of the latter group. -.-

 

Forgive me, for I am about to blow a gasket.

"I need this to feel comfortable in my own body." Boom. There you go.

I think there's something shallow in expecting trans people to, essentially, "suck it up and deal" because hey, kids are starving in Africa. Wanting to be happy and healthy isn't shallow. It's basic human rights. Some people have a harder time getting basic human rights than others. It sucks, but all you can do is advocate for people to be treated better.

I think someone NOT killing themselves because they feel like a disgusting freak is a positive thing.

Thinking positively won't make my boobs go away. Getting surgery not only reduces stress, it helps me exercise more, socialize more, work more and other such things because I am less stressed. I hope people realize that stress can keep people from doing every day things like taking a walk, eating, taking care of bodily hygiene, etc? Because it can. And does.

If you hate yourself because you have no teeth, can't you just live with having no teeth? If you hate yourself because you have a five pound tumor on your face, can't you just live with having a five pound tumor on your face? Same situation. Being transsexual is a medical problem. It has real-world consequences. "Just live with it" isn't an answer.

The mental problems are caused by the physical problems, not the other way around. If someone was cisgendered, they wouldn't be sitting there struggling with the fact that their sex and gender doesn't match. Maybe instead of trying to labels people with a mental problem, people should address the physical cause. Which is... you know. Someone's BRAIN be different than their genitals, and the only documented cure being physical transition.

If someone you knew and loved got their asses kicked and then were murdered because they got "read" by thugs as being transsexual, all because they could have gotten SRS but didn't because they thought their loved ones would feel that way about their SRS, would you live with yourself? Niot trying to be cruel, there, but think about it for a minute. By suggesting that trans people only want surgery because of looks, or wanting to fit in with society's view on what men or women should look like, you're body shaming them. You're suggesting they should be ashamed for wanting to fit in. Do you realize that there is safety in fitting in? Transsexuals who get recognized as transsexuals tend to run into problems more than transsexuals who fit in with the other guys and girls.

While I agree that people shouldn't want to transition JUST because of social pressure to be a typical guy or girl, what is wrong with wanting to fit in? What is wrong with wanting to physical conform to what society expects a man or woman to look like, if someone feels that IS what they should look like?

... Uh, no. Honestly, I don't think that people understand, if that's what they think. Someone who is transsexual is always going to be transsexual. The history is always going to be there. The body will never be quite the same as with a cisgendered person. Wanting to transition doesn't make one cisgendered, even if someone is transgender rather than transsexual. By wanting to transition, a person just wants to feel comfortable in their own body. That doesn't make them NOT trans, that is what being trans is ABOUT... wanting to feel comfortable in one's own body, according to one's own gender, regardless of how that is to be achieved. For some people, that involves surgery.

So what if other people see them as cisgendered after? That's like saying someone who is gay is suddenly not gay, if they don't tell everyone that they're gay or let people think they're straight.

... There's so much wrong with that, I can't even begin.

Oh hey, people with diabetes! Maybe instead of trying to have normal blood sugar, you should just do what you want, even if that means your toes fall off and you slip into a diabetic coma and die. Yo, people with cancer! Maybe instead of trying to get rid of cancer, you should just be proud of being a cancer fighter, even if that means you die a slow, horrible, painful death. Why stop there? People with AIDS, epilepsy, cleft palate, conjoined twins, hey, the people with Parkinson's and Autism too, maybe people with Alzheimer's, heart disease, paralysis, asthma... Hell, let's just do away with modern medicine totally. If people can't deal with their physical problems, that's just their fault for not having the right perspective. They just need to take pride in their differences, even if it kills them.

Yeah, it did. Just not in the way you were intending, I think. :|

End gasket-blowing. My apologies.

 

SeekSanctuary may have went on a bit and been very passionate, but I agree.

I always thought nose jobs for vain people who wanted it a bit more turned up was stupid. But I had plastic surgery to save my limbs, when I was in an accident. They COULD just chop em off though, if that helps starving African children somehow...feed it to em??
UGH! No. It will not help anybody else to suffer.

So, now I have accepted that there are real problems I have, and that others appear to be far worse off, I did more research. Appears that there are levels of need, from Transvestite, to Transgender, to Transexual...only labels really and there is overlap, but the idea is that some people like to dress in opposite sex clothes, some need to in order to feel okay in life and that is simple enough solution, some that is not enough they need therapy and maybe some hormones to feel better but are not suicidal just can't concentrate on regular life things until done, then there are those who are unable to take it in the body God gave them...no matter what causes it, it seems it is real and I am not the only person on the planet who feels they can't just date and get married and live normal happy life, sex life, in the body they look at..and that even dressing helps somewhat as I look in the mirror now and see normal!

I also read it can progress from wishing to wanting to needing to MUST change. Gee I hope not! I am between want and need right now! I really don't think I can fly to my new dorm and NOT have my penis on...and that is scary, how am I gonna live with a girl and her not see me in this, um, state?

So, it is serious, or we would be just dumping all this costly stuff, getting on with school, and go fu(K someone tonight the opposite sex and be cured! Hurah! I am cured, I kiss and let a guy insert his dick in me...and I will then kill myself! The world is saved!

 

I really am sorry for being a shit, but this issue is just too important to me for me to not speak up when I feel something is "off". And sometimes I'm a bit harsher than I intend to be. Mrgh.

11 11 11, I would post this on your wall. Alas, I cannot seem to find your wall. 8|;; So I apologize for posting this here, but I have no other way to do it.

"But I've never heard of someone, gender dysphoric or not, receiving plastic surgery and being wholly comfortable with themselves afterwards."

It's not common, but that is why people are supposed to attend therapy even after surgery. It's standard for people who get weight loss surgery, and lots of other surgical procedures that involve a big change.

"Those children in Africa are told to "suck it up and deal" with their malnutrition, chronic diarrhoea, and abuse."

Dunno, I've never told them that. I've also donated money to Red Cross and such to help people with that sort of thing, which is the most I can do about it, save for take over the world and completely overhaul everything.

"Meanwhile, us who were lucky enough to be born into a first-world western society, rarely have to worry if the water from our taps is contaminated with raw sewerage. Why? Because we were just damned lucky to be born into this."

But that's... really, really not our faults. Privilege isn't something people ask for. It's what people do with it that counts.

"But it feels wrong to me to complain about how hard it is to live in this body, when it's not ravaged by malaria, scabies, or some other horrid disease. My issues don't feel like they're worth addressing, when there are others out there suffering much more that could be solved by far less."

Which is great, for you. If it feels wrong to you, by all means, do whatever you think you should do.. or don't do, as the case may be. Me? I'm going to get done what I need to get done. Yes, what is happening to other people out there is TERRIBLE... but what I do or don't do isn't going to change what they are going through. My life is mine. I have to spend my life making sure I am able to function so that MAYBE I can help other people. I cannot help other people if I cannot even get out of bed, take a shower and go outside because I'm having a panic attack over what my body looks like.

"What if they want to kill themselves because they feel like a disgusting freak?"

Then they should get therapy and try to find a way to feel better about themselves. Beyond that, I don't know. It's not my place to decide what other people should or shouldn't do, feel or not feel.

"You've got to understand, all I did in this post was voice my thoughts. I didn't tout them as the gospel truth or something."

And that's fine... Except that opinions, being not-facts, are wide open to criticism as well as support. You offered your thoughts. I offered mine. Mine just happened to find a lot wrong with some of the things you said. It happens.

"People with terminal medical illnesses - often simply have to live with it."

That doesn't mean they should HAVE to... If it's something that CAN be fixed, then it should be fixed. Now, you used lungs as an example... That's a bit trickier, because it involves another body part of a certain type being available. It's not quite the same as someone getting chest surgery or having a vagina made out of tissue they already have. It's more involved. That is why I listed conditions that are relatively simple to fix... because they CAN get fixed, quite readily. But regardless, people shouldn't have to live with an illness that can be cured.

"He and his family "jut live with" his illness. Why shouldn't I with mine?"

I am sorry about your cousin... But as I said, if it's something that can be fixed, then being a martyr isn't helping anyone. Your refusal to fix something that could be fixed (IF there was a surgery you desired AND you COULD get it) doesn't change anything for those who cannot get their problems fixed.

"Transition isn't a cure."

There are a lot of doctors and transsexual people who disagree. Maybe it's not a cure for everyone, but it is the ONLY known cure for GID and many of the problems a lot of transsexuals face. Living life as the sex they feel they should be, being treated as that sex and looking like that sex... whether with hormones, surgery, both or neither... fixes a lot of the problems some people face.

"There is saftey in fitting in. Yes well I'm sorry, but I've never been one for fitting in."

Good for you. When they catch the son of a bitch who sexually assaulted me in a store because he clocked me and wanted to fuck up the tranny, I might change my mind, but considering this is a small town and he's still on the loose, I would rather fit in.

"Why do they feel they should look like that? Did society's expectations influence them? Because if it did, it means society is affecting the individual. Society is meant to be comprised of individuals, not a way of controlling them. That was Hitler's MO."

I don't know about anyone else, but I can clearly see that humans are a sexually dimorphic species. I want to look as close as I can get to the general image of "male" as possible, for my own safety. Expectations has nothing to do with biology. Society expects men to look a certain way because that is how biology has made men for thousands of years. Even androgynous men, unless given a very strange dice roll, tend to be recognized by anyone with good eyesight as men.

Society has always worked as a means of control. Morals, religion, politics, etc. It is all affected by society. Yes, society is made up of individuals, but the majority then becomes the standard by which everyone else tends to be judged. I'm not saying it's right, but that's how it has always worked. If people want to comply with the standard because they see wisdom in it, fine. If they don't want to, fine. But as long as they are choosing for themselves, and aren't harming themselves, then they shouldn't have to feel ashamed for doing it.

"That was my point. I wasn't trying to validate their argument."

My apologies. You stated under that paragraph that you were considering that your dad was right, so...

"Everybody dies. Since the moment we are born, we are slowly ageing and wasting away."

Yes, and some people want to feel comfortable in their bodies before they die.

"Some cancer patients forgoe treatment. Some transgender people don't transition."

If they choose not to because they honestly don't want to, that is fine. If they choose not to because they are sitting there wringing their hands because they feel ashamed to get treatment when other people cannot, that's not okay.

Also, I feel the need to clarify the difference between transsexual and trangender. Transgender is an umbrella term... transsexual is very specific, and most if not all transsexual people transition in SOME manner.

"I'm saying that the reason people with physical and mental disabilities feel different is because society tells them they are so. And whether a person is gender dysphoric, or suffers from a cleft-palate, they shouldn't be made to feel as though they have to seek treatment - to be a part of society."

... Honestly, as someone with physical and mental problems, yeah. I am different. Not because society tells me I am, but because I have enough wisdom to realize I am. Doesn't make me or anyone else a bad person, and I nor anyone else should feel pressured to get treatment to "fit in", but it doesn't mean we should feel bad for WANTING to fit in either. I WANT to be normal, because I'm not normal, and it's in a way that is detrimental to myself. Society isn't always correct, but there's a sliver of logic in wanting to fit in. If other people can life a healthy, happy life by not fitting in... awesome. I can't.

"I'm sure you didn't mean any offence by your reply."

Not at all, but I'm sure some was taken. It happens.

"I'm just rather irritated you assumed that I believed some of the alternative perspectives I posted."

Honestly, the way you're still talking and by some of the wording on the original post, I'm not sure how I or anyone else wouldn't come to that conclusion. Assumptions imply a lack of all the facts... I feel I came to a logical conclusion, given your wording. Like I said, that one paragraph, you said that you were starting to think your father was right; that to my implies a least a partial agreement with his views. But, c'est la vie... we all make wrong conclusions sometimes. My apologies.

Anyways...

 

Transgender isn't like plastic surgery or some appearance-enhancing junk that you don't really need. If you're transgender, sometimes you need the operation(s) to live your life. When I can get mine I will jump for it, because I hate this. Tangents are fun, right?

 

I have to say that I used to be in the same boat -- growing up I was abhorrently against any kind of body modification, including surgery, tattoos, piercings. Not even my ears were pierced. As soon as I started transitioning however, I realized the power behind self expression -- and being able to finally be comfortable with how you look and feel. I have to say that it is absolutely not cosmetic surgery we're talking about here -- Depression in itself is a very serious medical issue, and GID is no less serious than any other type of disorder. I myself am only planning on getting chest surgery because that might be the only type of "modification" I could stomach in general -- but I know it is necessary because I am absolutely certain that once I get it, my quality of life will increase extensively, as will the happiness levels of everyone around me and everyone I ever interact with.. I try to think of it as, would society prefer one more depressed, potentially suicidal individual, or would they rather have a healthy, confident and more centered individual?

If surgery and hormones are the cure for what we have, then so be it. I used to work with a MTF who eventually went through and got breast implants, facial feminization, etc.. it was unavoidable, because she had such strong masculine features, it would've been hard for her to pass. And I have to say, the person she became was SO much healthier, and happier, that you could feel the confidence radiating from her every time you talked to her.. I don't think I could begrudge anyone those surgeries, even if they are cosmetic ones, given the overwhelmingly positive changes that come from it.

I used to be strongly against cosmetic surgery. But nowadays I'm a little more lenient.. because I understand how painful it is to look in the mirror and not like who you are.. how can you blame someone for wanting to fix that?

 

I'm the same Syboy.

I honestly have nothing against someone modifying their appearence.

It just might not have come across in my posts because I'm in a very dark mood, and am experiencing a hatred of both myself and others. I'm sorry if that came across in my words, It's not usually the way I feel - but things are very hard for me right now.


That goes for anyone else who thinks I've been trying to convince you all transition is somehow evil in my belief. I DON'T think that - so you can all stop telling me how wrong I am. -.-

 

Hey 11_11_11,

Sorry I have nothing against you, I was just responding in general to J_Snow's OP. No offense taken either, I know what it's like to be in a funk and have it color all of your interactions. Then you have days where it's like you're playing devil's advocate against yourself, over and over again..

This paragraph rings so true to me. I think there's often this idea that "transitioning" comes in one package.. dressing in the opposite sex (another misconception, the idea that we operate along a binary), hormones, surgery. But it's not at all one size fits all, not even close. I like the idea of varying levels of need (from Transvestite > Transgender > Transsexual) because it places all of us under one umbrella, and includes even those who may not identify as trans at all, butch lesbians, femme gay guys, or what have you.. because the resources, information, and solutions we come up with can apply to and benefit anyone under this umbrella.

It's true we only need to transition to the point where we feel normal. Anything more WOULD be excess and it's mainly up to the individual to be responsible and educated enough to know when that point is. And that may be a scary thought for our society, having to trust an individual enough to let them make such large decisions on their own.. decisions that don't just affect the individual, but force us to change the very conservative way we as a collective group think about gender and sex.

I would hazard a guess that that's where most of the internal fear and apprehension about transitioning may be coming from. And not from the fact that you might not know what you want!

 

I still can't find your wall, 11 11 11, so eh. :eusa_doh:

There are some points that I feel the need to address. And keep in mind, I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong... just trying to explain why you might not ALWAYS be right. There's a difference!

Which is why I said "it's what you do with privilege that counts". And keep in mind that just because people seem to have privilege one way, doesn't mean they have it in others. I might be American and thus better off than most people in, say, Cambodia... but I'm disabled myself, trans, gay and have mental health issues. You can only do what you can do.

That's the problem. It isn't about looking good.

... But they were, to my knowledge, cisgendered. So that's sort of a moot point. A person's greatness has little to do with what they do with their bodies. You can focus on your own needs AND still help other people. It's not an either/or situation.

Not if you can't bring yourself to even get out of the bed in the morning. That's the problem with dysphoria. For quite a few people, it hinders their ability to live life. You can't do great things if you're trapped in your home because you feel like shit 24/7.

Yes, I worry about myself. Because I like being able to get out of bed, take a shower, brush my teeth and go outside.

I'm sorry you felt like you were being attacked. I wasn't aiming to attack you at all.

I'm a bit confused by the mood whiplash here... We're people, we should try and do what we can, we should try and help others, we should focus on others rather than ourselves... but living with things is just the way the world works? If that's just how things are, then why should anyone be invested in helping others? I mean, I totally feel people should do more to help people. But that's because I strongly believe that "that's just life" is NOT an acceptable answer. If something CAN be done to help people, then it SHOULD be done. I just happen to also believe that people need to start with themselves, and make sure they themselves are healthy and stable, and are in a position to help others.

Which is why I used the term "transsexual". While not a disease, being transsexual is indeed a medical condition. Therefor, there is a "standard of care", which outlines treatments. For many transsexuals, transition is seen as a "cure" for the condition, because transition is what helps them towards their goal of feeling "right" about themselves; it's sort of how like surgery is a cure for cleft palate. It's something that interferes with life and can even keep people from functioning, and for a number of people, hormone therapy and/or surgery of some sort ends that interference. Or, at least, greatly reduces it.

There's nothing wrong with being transgender, no, but transsexualism is a medical problem that has solutions.

Quite impossible, since I don't know who he is or where he is, and I haven't seen him since.

Not really. No one ever told me growing up that it WASN'T normal... I figured that out myself, because of the sheer amount of horror and anger I felt towards my body when I hit puberty. To me, wanting to kill yourself because you have breasts is not normal. That pain and anger is a symptom of there being something wrong. To me, being "normal" is quite a loose term... it just means you are comfortable enough with yourself to be able to live a functional life. I currently cannot do that, therefor to me, I am not normal.

Er... No. It's because I feel that my body is disgusting and wrong, and I used to want to hack off my own body parts with a kitchen knife. I was raised in a household that didn't give a shit about gender binary, and I was largely unaware of "society" because I lived in a rather sheltered household.

I think feeling comfortable in one's own body is utterly basic, or at least being comfortable with the body PARTS one has... There's a difference between expecting people to be comfortable in their bodies, and expecting that no one could ever feel otherwise. Plenty of people expect other people to be comfy in their bodies, while recognizing that some people aren't, just as there are many people who expect others to be straight but know that some people aren't.

If I had been brought up in a stereotype-free utopia, then I would still feel this way. Because my body IS WRONG.

... Actually, society tells me to suck it up and go see a therapist, because obviously I have some mental disorder if I think I'm actually a man, and that I am a disgusting abomination if I try and get hormones or surgery.

I'm doing the exact opposite of what society tells me to do. The only thing I might be doing that society would want is for me to fit in, and like said, I'm doing that for my own personal safety and because I feel like a disgusting freak. Not because anyone else wants me to.

That would be fine. I just can't PM you, and your wall is missing. xD;

 

11_11_11, I think you need to change your profile privacy settings