The Prince has a penis

I have made the distinction between gender and sex multiple times in my posts. STOP PICKING AND CHOOSING.

take the ENTIRE POST into account, or stop picking fights.


I have ever right to expect that if people are going to challange me, that they will take the whole of what I am saying, instead of attacking me for something the ignored parts of my post ADDRESS!

If this were a communication or debate class, the teacher would have failed you.

 

For the thousandth time, gender is not a biological thing. It's a social thing. The body does not express gender on its own. The body of a newborn baby does not express gender. It has a sex, yes, male, female, though in some rare cases even that is not clear, in intersex cases.

Having a penis does not express male gender, it just means you are male-sexed. A male-sexed person can express themselves as female-gender, and a female-sexed person can express themselves as the male-gender.

But for most people, gender identity is an individual thing, a unique mix of masculine and feminine, not some strict binary the way penis vs. vagina is.

 

This is also the reason why the term "same-sex marriage" is used in regards to gay marriage. Just pointing that out

 

again. this is why, as I keep point out over and over and over again, we have to destigmatise transgenderisem, and take our cue on gender-expression from the child when they express their gender as something other than what their body expresses.

the reality is that the real problem you are not talking about is when a child expressing their gender as that different from what their body says. none of you are acutally addressing this; instead, you are trying to make it out that a child cant express a gender different from their body if they are raised as what they body expresses.

your not in any way talking what how to address that moment if/when it happens in the life of a child.

the medical experts are, and they are pointed out that it is not being raised a gender that is oppressive or damaging; it is when a child expresses their real identity, and that is not respected or nurture that damage happens.

and distigmatising of transgendered expression is crucial, but the people ignoring VAST tracks of text here dont want to address a solution to how to help transgendered people. they just want to label themselves medical experts, going against what studies done by doctors and scientist who are working hard to distrigmatize transgendereisem, are proving that the extremes some people want to take actually do not help.

I put my faith in doctors, not people who split hairs, play symantic games, and refuse to accept the full context of an arguement, and pick things out, and destroy the context just so they can use it as a cudgel.

it is like how barrack obama in full quoted john mccain in 2008 when mccain said that 'if we talk about the econamy, we will lose', and republicans, seeking to attack him, claimed he was the one who said that, when he was quoting john mccain. CONTEXT MATTERS.

the definition of the word gender is rooted in the concept of physical sex, and yes, societies all over the world create confining gender roles, which are purely imaginary constructs. but just because you want to change the definition of the word gender, doesn't mean its historical defintion is now magically wrong.

Hence why EXPERTS use the phrase gender-expression, becuase the experts view the expression of gender as a spectrum, with no absolutes, and when a person expresses a gender not in line with their body, that is not the same thing as a socially constructed gender-role. according to experts, in that moment, the body doesnt match the emotional and mental understanding a person has of who they are.

and the fact that so many people are picking fights over symantic uses of a words historical definition, rather than dealing with how we should acutally work to help people dealing with a gender their body does not agree with shows that what is going on in this thread has NOTHING to do with transgenderisem. it has everything to do with people who like to pick fights.

this stopped being about how to help, uplift, and fight for the rights of transgendered indiviuals the moment people decided to take out of context other peoples posts, and nitpick them like internet trolls.

---------- Post added 29th Jul 2013 at 09:26 PM ----------

and just so you know: Merrium Webster: Definition of GENDER



1

: sex 1


2

: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

 

*sigh*

Okay. Emberstone. I said previously that for the most part, I agreed with your arguments. I've read through them. Even the last one. I was pointing out "gender" vs "sex" because that IS what the experts use, and that people skimming might have taken what you might have meant as "sex" and applied all that the definition of "gender" had into that. That was why I was playing the symantics game.

I also proposed an idea in response to one of your previous posts, and haven't gotten an answer for that from anyone:

Would it be better if we announce a kid's sex basically saying "It's a male" rather than "it's a boy" because of Edend's previous post that helped distinguish the ideas better?

 

Argument from authority...

Even if trans* aspects were completely destigmatised and accepted by society the people that fall under that umbrella would still be adversely affected if they had already been told they were a certain gender and implicitly expected to continue being that gender.

It is far simpler to just not give them a gender expectation in the first place.

The only way your argument can work is if the gender they are assigned before they begin expressing for themselves doesn't actually matter - and if it doesn't matter, don't assign it to them!

 

so medical experts who are studying gender expression are wrong?

the historical definitions of words are wrong?

all of a sudden, male=boy/female=girl magically ceases to be true?

historically, the term boy/girl was created, and was, and still is used, on the basis of a young person's gender, as gender is difined as a persons physical sex. the point of transgenderisem is that the physical body does not express the gender the person feels.

I am pushing back against people picking and choosing, and playing false symantic games. you do not get to attack people for using the proper and historical defintion of a word, and claim a moral, ethical, or intellecual high ground.

and each time I try to actually steer the conversation away from rhetorical falsehoods being flung at me, putting emphasis on acutally discussing scientifically and socially based approachs to helping remove the stigma, and helping to create a better enviroment where people can freely express their gender-identity regardless what their physical body may say, people keep ignoring that, and turning it into a "the historical definition of the word is wrong (historical defintions of words CANNOT BE WRONG, because the definition of a word is neither right nor wrong, it is a fact of what the word historically means), so here is my own defintion, and anyone using the historical one cant use it anymore."

symantic games is the sign you have no real arguement. if you did, you wouldn't be nitpicking words you are using incorrectly becuase you dont like what the proper and historical definition of the word is. Yes, the word Gender DOES apply to the physical sex of a baby when it is born, and yes, the word Gender DOES apply to social constructs assigning socially concieved traits.

but stop biting my head off because you dont like that the historical definition of a word includes things you dont like.

I keep trying to steer the conversation of social change, and each time, people fling rhetorical falsehoods at me, ignoring the real matter at hand so they can stroke their egos by deciding they magically have the right to completely alter and destroy the fullness of a word just because they cant be bothered to discuss what really matters.

the word gender does historically refers to a physical body of a person. and transgendered people express a gender different from their body. that is the historical definition of the word 'Transgendered'.

you don't own the word; you are not jk rowling, creating new words. you cant decide that people using it in the historically correct way are magically, all of a sudden wrong.

so, instead of attacting the english language, and its history, why dont you bother talking about what REALLY matters: how do we help transgender people? how do we help them feel empowered to openly express their gender-identity? how do we protect them from discrimination at the hands of ignorant people who feel the need to control the lives of other, and try to shame and harm transgendered people for simply expresing their true selves? What systems do we put in place to help children struggling with their feelings to know that they have love and support, and that who they are on the inside, regardless of what their body shows, is nothing to be ashamed of?

 

Emberstone, your long-winded rants remind me of my interaction with right-wing reactionaries on the internet. And even the content is surprisingly similar, defending bigoted "historical definitions", whether they be gender or marriage or sexuality, because the individual in question is fearful of change and does not want to confront the idea that society might have gotten something wrong.

Needless to say appealing to "historical definitions" is a bogus argument not even worthy of being entertained. I guess next you will be defending the "historical definition" of marriage as one man, one woman?

 

how is it bigotted that the word Gender is historically defined as "a persons physical sex" and "the social cosntruct and traits society apply to a specific sex"?

how does a person's physical body expressing Gender according to one of two historical definitions mean that I am a bigot?

Have I called transgendered people unnatural? Have I said that it is impossible for a person to express a gender that is not represented by their physical body? Have I said we should discriminate and shame transgendered people for expressing what they know to be true about who they actually are? Have I said they are destroying society?

I am not attacking transgendered people; I am being attacked because people are deciding that they get to decide the defintion of a word as it has been throughout the history of the word itself is wrong.

I take offence to the fact that I am being attacked because people dont like what a word means.

The FACT that Gender is defined as the physical sex of a person is irrefutable, and irrelevant.

WHAT MATTERS: how we work to support transgendered people.

the comparrision to right-wingers is also bigotted. I am a progressive liberal, and I cringe when liberals uses the falsity of symantic games to weasle out of legitilate points of debate.

DROP THE WORD, AND WORK ON THE ACTUAL PROBLEM.

I will defend myself against unfair and false attacks.

stop attacking me for using a word HOW THE WORD IS USED.

 

Haha! I'm not trying to convince you, that's never going to happen on the Internet: the goal is to provide an argument for observers. You haven't offered anything to argue so there is nothing to respond to.

If you don't understand and can't or won't recognise the different between biological sex and gender, then the conversation isn't going to be any more fruitful than talking to a rock about philosophy.

 

Definition of GENDER



1

: sex 1


2

: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex.

I am allowed to use the word as historically defined.

so, again, instead of being hung up on the proper and historical definition of a word, why arent you talking about how we deal with helping transgendered people?

or was this entire thread another "who the fuck gives a fuck about the royal baby" meme on the internet practically brimming with them?

---------- Post added 29th Jul 2013 at 10:18 PM ----------

I have every right to use the FACTUAL and HISTORICAL definition of the word.

if you have problem with that, create your own language, and define the words however you please.

but I also have everyright to defend my proper usage of a word against people attacking me, mocking me, and insinuating I am a bigot.

but so far, there are only a few people who actually seem to care about transgendered rights, and breaking through the REAL problems our society perpetuates, and the people attacking me over their disdain for what a word means seem to have little desire to discuss that.

which means they dont actually have an arguement; they just want to cause problems, and stir up chaos.

if they were otherwise, they actually would be talking about the issues transgendered people face, instead of deciding that they get to strike down the proper and historical defintions of a word rather than talk about anything meaningful.

 

Did you not read my proposal? I actually proposed something. It was:

Would it be a better idea to announce the baby's birth sex i.e. "It's a male" rather than "It's a boy"? This takes ALL arguments into account.

 

Yup.

Saying it's a male is correct because it has male genetics and physical attributes.

You shouldn't announce its gender as boy or girl any more than you should announce "it's an architect" - you don't know what gender it will be any more than you know what job it will choose. Assigning the child one out of convenience is just going to put unnecessary pressure and expectations upon them, which are a very significant cause of the issues trans* people face.

 

again, you are playing sytmantics, and as already pointed out, the word male and the word boy are only seperated by the fact that boy is a word created to refer to a male who is young. the same goes for female/girl.

there is no real difference between refering to a baby and a male/female, and refering to a baby as a boy/girl.

you are playing symantics. you are deciding that how a word has been used all a long magically cant be used that way anymore.

We are not talking about durogatory words like the F word, the C word, the N word, in which the history of the word was used and still is used to demean and harm someone.

if you see a baby who is a boy, how does it change it if you call it a male? how does it change it if you call it a man? the word boy and the word man are modifiers; they designate an age for a Gender (a word defined as the physical sex of a person).

since the words boy/girl refer to a young person, and man/woman refers to an adult, and these are the defintions those words historical have, and currently remain used, and that these words are tied to the gender (a word defined as the physical sex of a person), it doesn't change the social outcome of announcing to the world the baby is a male or female.

you dont get to strike down how language works, and how words are used.

the point of transgenderisem has nothing to do with enforcing that a person has to abide by the gender (a word defined as the physical sex of a person), regardless of how they truly feel.

The point of transgenderisem is that a persons gender (a word that is defined as a person's physical sex) doesn't match who they know themselves to be on the inside. People, such as myself, who support transgendered individual then choose to respect and support them by using pronouns that reflect how they know themselves actually to be. at the moment, the Gender their body expresses is not what truly matter compaired to who they know themselves to truly be inside, which is what matters.

the majority of people are not transgendered, and that does not mean transgenderisem is immoral, gross, or wrong. But the word Gender doesnt matter. what matters is that a person feels they know who they are. and if you have a penis, and feel that you are a man, thats what matters. if you have a vagina, and you feel that you are a female, thats what matters. if you do not feel your body represents who you are, that matters also. If you do not identiy with any gender, that matters also.

what matters is that you know who you are inside, and what matters is that we help break down the walls that say that is shameful.

symantics are don't change that. the definition of the word Gender as it has been since its inception as apart of the english language doesn't change what a transgendered person feel and expresses.

so stop attacking me. attacking me, and the word Gender does NOTHING to advance the rights and well-being of transgendered individual.

 

Just sayin: If people weren't assigned a gender at birth, transgender people would cease to exist.

So Emberstone does have a point, even if he's doing it in a long-winded way.

The sex of the child is male. People need to leave it at that. The baby is an infant. The people trying to label the child's gender as male are just as bad as the people trying to say people shouldn't label a gender male because they might think otherwise when they're older.

If someone considers gender and sex the same thing, that's what they are allowed to believe. Just like you are allowed to believe otherwise. You will not convince the other person otherwise, and they won't convince you. That's one thing you should have learned by now. Gender is one of the things most people consider concrete and never changing. You can try to change their perception, but the fact is, the vast majority of the time, you won't.

It's. A. Baby. As far as they are concerned, they cry, pee, and poop. They aren't concerned with anything else.

If this was about someone struggling with who they are, it'd be one thing. But this is about a baby. -.-;

In fact, it's kind of ironic all the people saying they shouldn't assign a gender still refer to the baby as a prince. Prince insists the baby is gendered male. So you're being hypocritical.

 

you just redefined words.

as I have already pointed out boy/girl is a term refering to a young male/female, and man/woman is a term refering to an adult male/female. those are what those words were created to be used. those are how those words are used.

calling a person male/female at birth, or calling a person boy/girl at birth doesnt change anything; they are just words.

my god, do they actually teach linquistics in schools anymore?

 

I have never once used the term Prince in this thread up until now Tim!

 

I wasn't referring to you.

 

First, stop using "transgendered" and "transgenderism". Its transgender.

Second, stop thinking that you are some kind of savior to trans* people. There are two openly trans* people on this thread telling you, pleading with you, that what you are saying is harmful and simply not true.

You cannot say that you are fighting for trans* rights while the same people that you are fighting for are telling you to please stop what you are doing.

That depends on each person's definition of transgender. For some people, the greatest umbrella term of transgender is someone who has a gender expression or identity that is not validated by the mainstream culture.

 

I never said I am a savior for transgendered people.

But I am defending myself against attacks from people who are bashing me for using a word how it has been used since its etymological creation.

If you dont like the defintion of a word, you do not have the right to ommit that definition. I have every right to use the word according to its definition.

but people dont have the right to attack me for using the word as defined by its historical use. that is how words are defined: by what they were created to say, and how they are used.

I have not attacked people for being transgendered. but I have been being called a bigot for understanding the definition of a word as defined by history and its etymology.

I am not going around bashing people for being transgendered.

no one has given an evidence that announce a baby as male/female causes less harm than announcing a baby as boy/girl does. no one has given any evidence that announcing a baby's gender (a word defined as the physical sex of a person) harms that baby.

The real issue comes when a person who is transgendered doesn't feel they can openly express their true self, or is shamed, bullied, attacked when they do. \

Attacking me because you dont like the proper, factual definition of the word Gender as recognized by history and linquistics in no way helps people who are transgendered.

I do have a right to defend myself.

have I spoke out against people who are transgendered?

Answer that question: Have I spoken out against people who are transgendered?

As for you trying to turn the words transgendered and transgenrisem into slurs, they were created and used by the same person, John F. Oliven, who created the designation transgender.

Again; drop the symnatic games.

if you think playing symantics magically will cure the harm inflicted against people for expressing a gender identity their body does not represent, you are nieive.