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Shame?

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by skiff, Feb 25, 2014.

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  1. awesomeyodais

    awesomeyodais
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    I don't know what is the strongest source of shame, the outright "those people are going to hell" open shaming, or noticing that family, neighbors, friends of your parents NEVER talk about certain topics, and when they do they use all sorts of code words, half-sentences, with an air of disapproval or worry (because the people they're avoiding talking about are going to hell after all...). Whether it's the gay uncle, gramp swho drinks too much, the teenage female cousin who disappeared for a year, it's the same pattern, and as a child you learn quickly that "it's a bad thing" therefore "they're bad people".
     
    #21 awesomeyodais, Feb 26, 2014
  2. skiff

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    Hi,

    My experience is shame and unwarranted guilt are things others offer you but ACCEPTING either is your choice.

    Being a parent it is akin to true parental power. Every parent knows they have no real power over a child and if the child learns this too early it can be diasterous for the child.

    Society can only use shame and guilt as a weapon if you give society authority too. We have all heard the lesson a million times since childhood.

    This societal anthem holds "choice" at its core;

    "Sticks and stones can break your bones but names will never hurt you"

    You can restate the lesson in these ways;

    "Sticks and stones can break your bones but shame will never hurt you"

    Or

    "Sticks and stones can break your bones but guilt will never hurt you"

    Only if you ACCEPT the weight of words, shame and guilt are they affective.

    It is your CHOICE what you do with the shame and guilt offered you by others. You DO NOT need to accept it.

    Refusing it is no more difficult than an alcoholic refusing a drink. You are an adult, be strong, refuse the negative gifts.

    Society has taught us this from childhood, simply listen.

    Tom
     
    #22 skiff, Feb 26, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  3. greatwhale

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    I agree that shame is something that society offers, definitely. Which begs the question: why do we so often accept this "gift"?

    We love explanations too much I think; trying to explain why we are different is a lovely trap. I would venture to say that we have a need to explain to others who we are, and if who we are isn't "normal", then there must be some reason...oh, there it is: I am less that other human beings, that must be it...

    From that self image, a kind of ego-creation, we then develop hatred for the fundamentally flawed person we have conjured up, and so it goes...

    When we are children, we have no defenses against these insults, and our culture does not teach us the warrior energies that we need to protect and defend our frontiers and our boundaries. So shame runs roughshod through our souls and the damage is done before we know what's happening...it takes a lifetime, sometimes, to get over that. For many of us, this is our greatest and most desperate battle.
     
    #23 greatwhale, Feb 26, 2014
  4. Chip

    Chip
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    I really wish the above were true. Unfortunately, the research on shame, which stretches back at least 5 decades, tells us the opposite.

    No one voluntarily accepts shame, we can't avoid being shamed, nor can we completely eliminate shame. all of us have it. (And, as I said above, the more we have it, the less we talk about or own it.) The literature is clear that the only people who don't experience shame are people who have no capacity for empathy (i.e., people with sociopathic personalities.)

    Ironically, the statement refusing it is no more difficult than an alcoholic refusing a drink is correct; alcoholics have difficulty refusing drinks because there's a hardwired, biochemical wiring in their brains that makes it difficult for many alcoholics to maintain sobriety, and in the same way, shame is one of those things that comes at us and hits us hard, in most cases, before we even know what's happened, and in most cases, it hijacks the brain almost immediately and puts us into a "shame storm" where logic goes out the window and our responses are driven by the amygdala. So in that way, it is no more or less difficult than an alcoholic, whose actions are largely driven by their brain biochemistry and not by conscious decisions.

    In clinical settings, probably the biggest single cause of empathic failure (situations where the therapist fails in connecting to what the client is experiencing, and says the wrong thing) is when the client brings up something shameful, and it inadvertently triggers something in the therapist's own shame. If it were as simple as "refuse the shame", then certainly trained clinicians wouldn't have problems with shame. Unfortunately, they, like every other (non-sociopathic) human, have their shame triggers as well.

    However, even though we have no control over being exposed to shame, we can learn to be resilient to it. (Again, according to all of the literature, we can't resist it, but we can be resilient to it.)

    Guilt is an entirely different animal. Most guilt has its roots in a healthy place, because it is the root of moral and ethical behavior. We feel guilty when we do something we aren't supposed to do, so guilt, for the most part, can help us to be better people. It is usually shame, and not guilt, that causes us the problems, though there are exceptions to that.
     
    #24 Chip, Feb 26, 2014
  5. skiff

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    Hi,

    This is not an impossible situation.

    If it were there would be no LGBT civil rights movement.

    Some people may choose to be powerless, encourage others to be powerless (misery loves company) but that is not reality.

    If you want to be happy you need to recognize your power, your authority over a situation.

    People are powerful if they choose to be. Otherwise EC is simply a virtual whining station.

    Healing can occur, sexuality accepted, shame and guilt rejected (as it deserves to be).

    Some may choose to live shame filled, guilt ridden lives over sexuality, but I say NO MORE! I am walking in a Pride parade. I am taking back my power, my authority. I hope you all do.

    Tom

    ---------- Post added 26th Feb 2014 at 03:55 AM ----------

    I absolutely agree people in "authority" project their insecurities and doubles on others.
     
    #25 skiff, Feb 26, 2014
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  6. skiff

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    Hi,

    I suspect these folks rejected the shame and bullying and were not sociopaths or lacking empathy. There is lots of psych-babble out there;

    The dysfunctional aspects of society need to be rejected and corrected for societal and LGBT healing to occur.

    Where would we be without a individual turning points, whether it is a public Stonewall Inn protest against sexual oppression or gay Joe Blow seeking freedom from his closeted sexual oppression?

    It starts with "No more" and rejecting oppression and if the oppression comes at you as shame or guilt so be it.

    The people of Stonewall had a choice, you do too. They faced clubbing, guns, arrest, etc and still found the courage to say "No more". You have it too.

    If nothing else being LGBT breeds strength which can be used in ways foreign initially.

    Tom
     
    #26 skiff, Feb 26, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  7. Kate Lee

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    I guess my take on shame is that it is a powerful tool to get others (or even yourself) to do what you want them to do, so shame as a motivator. Whether it is about performing better academically or socially, sports, music, weight loss, being more masculine, feminine, etc. It's a negative way of making people conform: shaming them into the 'right' behavior.


    A little while ago I searched about shame because I felt loads of it and wanted to know why, ending up on sites about toxic shame and also finding the already mentioned Ted talks of Brené Brown. I think that shame has been used a lot in my life to motivate me, and that I have also done that to myself. The difference with guilt is very important, as already stated by Chip, because shame makes you feel inherently bad as a person. Bad actions can be altered but being a bad person or feeling like one, is a lot more challenging and may ultimately have very negative consequences. Which is why I think it's worth fighting against it, recognizing it and trying to reject it. Believing in the message of shame and using it against others or yourself can be dangerous and depressing.

    I think there's a lot of pressure to conform in all fields of life which is why shame is used so often, that and because it is so powerful. People don't generally want to feel ashamed so it's a very effective tool. It's hard not to buy into it, but I believe that at least recognizing it and trying to stop using it (on) yourself can already bring some relief and help in dealing with it.
     
    #27 Kate Lee, Feb 26, 2014
  8. Chip

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    Tom,

    I think you're completely misreading what I'm saying. I'm certainly not claiming that shame is an "impossible situation", or that we have to sit around and whine about whatever isn't working. Certainly, that isn't helpful in any way. And far from being "psychobabble", the field of shame research has been around quite a while, and the knowledge we have about it comes from a pretty large body of research from a number of different, well credentialed people. We can deny or discount what's known about shame, but that's sort of like denying that climate change exists; it's not an issue that anyone credible disputes, and generally, the only people who deny it haven't actually looked at the research, or are so terrified of their own shame that they have to try to push it away, rather than recognizing and owning it, so that we can understand it and let it go.

    If you interpreted what I said to mean that having shame is an impossible situation, or that the only option is to whine or be powerless, then that was a miscommunication; nothing in any of the probably thousands of posts I've written on shame resilience here at EC indicates anything close to that. It is through acknowledging our shame, and how it affects us, that we access the vulnerability necessary to find our courage, our creativity, the ability to love, to stand up for ourselves, and most everything else worth experiencing in life.

    I think the piece you seem to be missing is that shame is a part of us whether we like it or not, but that doesn't mean we can't learn to understand how it affects us and develop resilience to it.

    Pride isn't the opposite of shame; empathy is. Shame is a lack of connection, a feeling that we don't belong, and a feeling we don't deserve to belong. So marching in a pride parade, by itself, doesn't eliminate shame or even push it away. Neither does, by itself, starting an uprising at Stonewall. But both of those require courage and vulnerability, which go hand-in-hand with shame resilience. So when we stand up and be seen, we're not so much rejecting the shame (which would imply we can simply push it away, which the literature is clear doesn't work), but instead acknowledging that it's there, and, at the same time, to believe we are worthy of love and belonging and empathy. It is those things, not having uprisings or marching in parades, that actually extinguish the shame and help us to live full, wholehearted lives.

    One of the tools we use to fight shame is, as you imply (and paraphrasing from the shame resilience literature) to stand up for ourselves, let ourselves be seen for who we are, and to love and accept ourselves exactly as we are. It is the last piece that is usually the biggest challenge to truly overcoming shame.
     
    #28 Chip, Feb 26, 2014
  9. Tightrope

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    I think the shame situation plays out on different levels. A person may not have shame for who they are or what they do. It is a societal construct. Someone or something else, including mass media and societal expectations, heap it on a person. So, while a person may disagree with what others find shameful, they are indeed affected by potential marginalization. Now, that can't be discounted. It is the marginalization that stings most people, even though they may be quite content with themselves.
     
    #29 Tightrope, Feb 26, 2014
  10. Chip

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    They're both tied together. Marginalization is, essentially, a sense of disconnection. The lack of connection creates shame, and shame is very personal; it is a sense that we are not worthy of love and belonging. So, by definition, we can't be truly content with ourselves if we have a lot of unaddressed shame.

    Now, that said, as Skiff points out, having shame doesn't mean that we can't be happy, for the simple reason that we all have shame. So if the shame is addressed and you're aware of it and work on it, it's not going to affect you as much. But it will still pop up, now and again, when it gets triggered. But if we've done the work, and we're aware, then we can identify them and learn what to do when we get triggered.
     
    #30 Chip, Feb 26, 2014
  11. tscott

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    I've re-examined the post I put up and it really was more about guilt then shame. I don't honestly don't think I've felt shame for who I am...or least as I understand it. I have felt fear...fear of abandonment, fear of bullying, fear of being discovered as being gay...fear of what the consequences would be. I would be less than honest if it was really about shame. I've felt shame over using somebody, bulling someone myself, or cheating on a test. Usually, something that I did that diminished who I am as a person.
     
    #31 tscott, Feb 26, 2014
  12. StillAround

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    Tim, I think you're confusing the psychological definitions of shame and guilt, which is what Chip is trying to clarify. As Brene Brown said in her second TED talk, guilt is when you believe you made a mistake; shame is when you believe you are a mistake. The examples you cited above are about guilt. We confuse the two because conversationally, when we say we're ashamed of ourselves, we mean that we actually feel guilty about doing something we believe to be wrong. But shame, in the way Chip is using it, is quite different.

    Chip, feel free to chime in here...

    I'd hate for this to turn into some meta war...(*hug*)
     
    #32 StillAround, Feb 26, 2014
  13. taobroin

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    I think you're absolutely right - but I ask you - what strategies have/do you employ to "let go of the shame" and be authentic? I mean - it doesn't seem to me just a decision one makes one day to be authentic.
     
    #33 taobroin, Feb 28, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  14. lemarikosong

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    I am sorry that I can only repeat what other have told you. For me it's largely because of religion. Religion plays a huge part of any Indonesian's life, no matter what religion we have. You in Western countries can say that you're religious, but for us it's seriously on a different level altogether. What made it worse that it happened to be mine was Islam and it is very harsh on homosexuality. Most people in my country would just bury their own true selves rather than fighting society because it is that hard. Fortunately I am not one of them :slight_smile:
     
    #34 lemarikosong, Feb 28, 2014
  15. Electra

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    Skiff

    Haven't been on EC for a bit and I dip in to find you've done it again with a simple starting post leading to an amazing thread of thoughtful, vulnerable and authentic replies that certainly helps me NOT feel ashamed of being gay.
    I guess from your original post may be you have a strong sense of self belief and always had (irregardless of your sexuality). Thats a wonderful gift… long may it last.
    For me only when I came out properly a few years ago and started having therapy and group life coaching (via the amazing Quest project for gay man in London) did I realise how much shame i have lived with over the decades.
    I guess 'shame' is a trendy psycho-pop word at the moment and certainly isn't confined to LGBT people (I also think Brene Brown is amazing in her work on this subject) BUT I think as a gay man it has resonated through my life in many subtle ways. For me its how I have 'compensated' for shame that has been the eye-opener, from being 'mummy's little good boy', to excelling academically to being overly introspective and not allowing my creative (flamboyant? = gay?) side to shine through. Some of these compensations have served me well and are not bad in themselves, but my behaviours having been literally eating away at me all the time I could not admit to myself who i truly was. For me its nothing to do with religion (this was never a big thing in my upbringing), but the need to 'fit in', be liked, not be judged has ruled my life.
    Now for me the best part of coming out is being able to face all that (and yes it can be painful and vulnerable) and each day to take baby steps to move beyond that. Thats my journey… Thanks Skiff and all of you who've posted in this thread for reminding me i am not alone in this..
     
    #35 Electra, Feb 28, 2014
  16. PeteNJ

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    15 year old boy, has his first kiss with a girl, he tells his buddies, his uncles, maybe his Dad, and gets high fives and 'atta boys.

    15 year old boy, has his first kiss with a boy, he can't tell his buddies, or his family, or his parents. he keeps it a secret. deep inside he's heard over and over that homos and gays are not normal. as delicious as that kiss was, he's internalized that being gay isn't acceptable. that kiss, those feelings = shame.
     
    #36 PeteNJ, Feb 28, 2014
  17. Rose27

    Rose27 Guest

    Pete- Brought tears to my eyes. So true. Beautifully and painfully stated.
    (&&&)
     
    #37 Rose27, Feb 28, 2014
  18. BMC77

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    #38 BMC77, Feb 28, 2014
  19. StillAround

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    Oh Pete...(*hug*):eusa_clap(*hug*)

    That is exactly what shame is about. Not the feeling that I made a mistake, but that I was a mistake.

    Thanks for putting it so eloquently.
     
    #39 StillAround, Feb 28, 2014
  20. taobroin

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    That's a very powerful, heart wrenching, and accurate definition of shame over being gay. I know this so well. At least your protagonist got to have a 'delicious' kiss with another boy - and for that I celebrate!
     
    #40 taobroin, Feb 28, 2014
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