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"No One is Born Gay (or Straight) and here are 5 reasons why"

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by TENNYSON, May 1, 2015.

  1. TENNYSON

    TENNYSON Guest

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    What are your thoughts on this article?

    No One is Born Gay (or Straight): Here Are 5 Reasons Why | Social (In)Queery

    It's not a new article (so I didn't post it in the "News" section), but it does present some interesting points about sexuality. Some of the things the author points out if you don't want to read it:

    1. She claims that the argument that people are born gay is a strategic and an advantageous one, but that doesn't mean it's true.
    2. She points out that other preferences, while also as seemingly permanent as homosexuality can be culturally influenced and while they may have developed during young childhood, they are not necessarily something we were born with.
    3. She seems to claim that her lesbian tendencies started with her taking womens' studies classes, that caused her to see her previous sexual desires as motivated by sexism.
    4. She also points out that things we choose are not necessarily trivial or temporary. Religion is a choice, but it's not the same as choosing what shoes to wear on a certain day. Religion becomes an inseparable part of your life.

    This is basically another way of saying "the origin of homosexuality doesn't really matter". Do you agree with that?
     
  2. Jellal

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    Yes, I think this is valid. I'm inclined to believe that who we are as people is determined primarily by our experiences in life and not so much the "pre-programmed stuff."
     
  3. Tightrope

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    I agree that they don't really matter. People are predisposed to have any of various sexual identities. What happens to people along the way, how they develop, how they respond, and how they deal with these events and stimuli varies for everyone.
     
  4. RainDreamer

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    I also avoid biological determinism, although I do think that biology has a lot of influences in our behaviours. It is, however, not a determining factor. For something as subjective and personal as sexuality and identity, thinking that it is all determined by the things that make up our body and ignoring the rest of what makes a person is a big mistake. Vice versa too.
    While it is indeed how a person live shapes them, what they have on them to deal with life also help influence how they perceive themselves.
     
  5. antibinary

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    I agree with this.
     
  6. TeddyV

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  7. BornCoward

    BornCoward Guest

    I think there is an element of both biological and environmental variables which can determine if someone is homosexual and that the influence of one may be stronger than the other depending on the individual. I don't think that it's correct to completely rule out either the environmental or biological element of homosexuality as it's impossible to deny that they will both effect you at some point in your life.

    (that opinion sounded rather strong, please don't take it to heart if you disagree ^^')
     
  8. HappyGirlLucky

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    I want to start with the fact that I currently identify as straight, but I'm not 100% sure and may not be the best person to comment on this topic for that reason.

    However, I'll have to disagree a bit with the article. I don't think we can come to the conclusion that "no one is born gay" because sometimes we have been wrong about scientific theories in the past. You could use that argument to disprove the big bang theory or most religious beliefs too. Just because we don't have a lot of evidence doesn't mean it's not true. It literally just means we have little evidence.

    Also saying that "no one is born gay" because the author feels some people are not born gay but choose to become gay later (like the author herself) doesn't make it so. Just because some can choose their orientation doesn't mean everyone can. This sounds like the everyone is a little bi argument in disguise to me.

    Someone made a comment that sums this up better than I can:
    I think the only definite thing we can say is that we really don't know. Personally I don't have an opinion on how it develops and I don't think the origin matters much. We should just let people be who they are, it doesn't matter why they are that way. I think we should still look for how sexual orientation (and gender identity) comes to be, but at the moment we don't know enough to claim anything either way.

    I sincerely hope I didn't offend anyone with my post.

    ETA:
    BornCoward posted while I was writing and I also agree with their post. We can't rule anything out because we really don't have any evidence to support any theory. For all we know it could be that space aliens shoot about 10% of the population, somewhat randomly, with a gay-ray just to mess with us. :lol: Sorry! I just woke up and it seems my mind is still in dreamland.
     
    #8 HappyGirlLucky, May 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  9. Fallingdown7

    Fallingdown7 Guest

    I can actually agree that sexuality has socially influenced factors.

    The only thing that scares me about this belief becoming mainstream (even though it's true) is when people use this fact to try to get people to become straight- or the recent trend in the "queer" community- getting everyone to become bisexual. And this is the main issue I have with queer theory and politics, especially in a society that tries to force men down my throat whether It's from straight people or bi people (or even gay men).

    Even kindness and empathy are social constructions, with everyone being "A little bit homicidal by nature" but it doesn't mean we need to embrace it. And sometimes even socially influenced preferences have no affect on certain people because of their brain wiring. Case in point: I've always hated movies, despite how much society loves them and wants me to love them, but I still think the interest is socially constructed.
     
  10. LooseMoose

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    Forgive me if I am misunderstanding this article, it has been a while since I have read it.

    There is an aspect of this argument in point 3 which I feel is not necessarily logical - how does she account for straight people who went through sexist conditioning, and who realised that this is sexist & not equal, and yet remain being straight and don't 'go queer' just because they dislike what heterosexuality stands for?
    In other words I feel that in her case there must have been some homosexual capacity in her, for her to be able to abandon her heterosexual conditioning.

    Also the fact that she in a way ascribes moral value to sexuality- 'straight= sexist= bad', "queer=free from heterosexism='better"' is in itself a sign of her subjectivity, and not a description of objective reality- straight people don't feel bothered by those things sufficiently to bet put off straight sex due to their existence - otherwise we would have straight people en masse ditching heterosexuality, in favour of same-sex relationships.

    I feel that if we start going down the route of 'we are all conditioned heterosexuals' & 'gay people are those who were conditioned to be gay', or 'gay people are those who failed their heterosexual conditioning' -
    we are starting to move closer to the statement that 'we are all gay-bisexual by nature, and all of heterosexuality is conditioned- hence it cannot be real'. I think it is a way of accepting your own homosexuality, through making it seem like 'the better choice', but by doing so the argument essentially starts to look like "heterosexuality is so bad that nobody would be heterosexual, if they were not subjected to heterosexual conditioning in the first place"



    I went through a similar process to her in that I started to feel that I 'wanted to be gay' - because I disliked being in a straight relationship- heterosexism.

    Later on I have realised that this had little to do with straight relationships being objectively inferior, but more to do with the fact that I am wired to prefer being in a same-sex relationship, and I am also wired to be sexually compatible with women, rather than men.
    Ithad to do with my innate preference- and conditioning had little to do with the preference- conditioning just prevented me from realising that preference much earlier, and I think that this might have also been the case in her example.
     
    #10 LooseMoose, May 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  11. BryanM

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    Regardless, for a supermajority of people sexuality is something innate within them and it is something they did not consciously choose.
     
  12. starlights

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    I dunno, I'm uncomfortable with some of the things she's saying. She's refuting studies by pointing out that self-identified straight people engage in "gay" behavior, but the "gay" behaviors she uses as examples aren't necessarily sexual. There's a difference between being drunk and grabbing your friend's boobs at a party, and having actual, real sex with them, one on one with no one else there. There's a difference between frat boys doing "gay" things as part of hazing, and having a sexual and emotional attraction to someone of the same sex.

    In a way it's almost like saying any "gay" behavior is deviant, and she's not making any distinction between behavior and attraction. I know there's something in my brain, in my genetic hardwiring, that makes me sexually attracted to girls but not guys. I'm not choosing it, in fact I fought it for years like lots of other people have. If I kiss a guy, I feel nothing even if I think he's attractive. If I kiss a girl I'm interested in, I get butterflies in my stomach. Isn't that a biological response?

    That doesn't mean it's all nature and no nurture, it just means that there's *something* there, some way our brains are wired or the way our bodies produce certain chemicals. And yeah...giving ammunition to people who insist it's a choice is also dangerous. My heart breaks every time I hear about the damage done to people who are forced into "conversion therapy."
     
  13. Weregild

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    I want to believe she's mistaking sexual behavior for sexual orientation here.

    I don't like the way she's dismissing the discussion about the origins of homo and heterosexuality.
     
  14. Andrew99

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    I've seen this before but I can't say I agree with it or not.
     
  15. MetalRice

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    I completely disagree with the article.
     
  16. TENNYSON

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    Thanks for answering guys. I agree that the origin of homosexuality doesn't really matter and I'm not overly concerned with it.

    But I also agree that there are problems in the article's logic. "Not everyone is born gay" is not the same as "No one is born gay", but she seems to think it is. Additionally, there are many scientific articles you could cite that would contradict the evidence against being born gay.
     
  17. -Lana-

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    I see her point I guess
     
  18. Alyss

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    I think that human sexuality is so complex and causes of sexual orientation are still mystery, despite of huge progress in science (biology, psychology, social).
     
  19. ShadowSpirit26

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    I disagree with this article. It uses the same old arguments have been used time after time, and these arguments have been disproven time and again. If someone has the ability to choose which gender they can be with, then they are bisexual or pansexual. Unless they are either bi or pan, they cannot choose who they can be with. Ignorant people come to the conclusions in that article however, due to either not believing in bisexuality or pansexuality, and thinking that is so cut and dry that one must be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation is a spectrum though, and biology decides where on that spectrum each of us lands. It has nothing to do with your environment. Even people who end up in those torturous monstrous conversion centers, do not change. They are being repressed, damaged, tortured, brainwashed, and ruled by fear and all the psychological problems that such places bring them. They'll say anything to put an end to such things. If it had to do with environment, then I guarantee you that such evil places would definitely work for everyone who goes there, however, it works for no one regardless of what any ignorant bigot says. Now there are people who think they are one thing at one point of their life, only to find out that they are another, but those people are again either bi or pan and they have not yet understood that they are bi or pan. The arguments used in that article are also highly favored by unintelligent religious people who are just trying to compromise. However, those arguments hold no merit, and they have been proven as false time after time. Do not be fooled by this like the author of the article is.
     
  20. WearyWanderer

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    This sums up what I think of the Nature vs. Nurture argument in regards to homosexuality. Also that it doesn't matter.