LGBT News N.M. Republican Said Gay Men Should Stop ‘Whoring’ And Marry Women

Religious beliefs are a choice. Beliefs can be changed. Sexual orientation is not a choice. Sexual orientation is an innate characteristic that cannot be changed.

So it is a false equivalency. Objecting to a particular religious belief is not attacking the humanity of a religious person; objecting to someone's sexual orientation is dehumanizing that person and attacking them for who they are.

 

It is not our job to change others beliefs even if we can. If you want to force them to change their beliefs to whatever suits us then sorry to say but that doesn't make us any better than homophobes. Mockery and empty talk doesn't prove a point, actions do...if you want them to see us the "good people" we are then act on it. That's all I got to say.

 

I fail to see how it is ok to attack someone for what they believe in, but once sexuality is attacked, it suddenly becomes a no-go zone. Religious beliefs, like sexuality, is a part of who someone is, as much as you try to deny it. Sure beliefs can change, but it doesn't justify bullying them. Is it ok to say that Muslims are stupid for their beliefs? No! Would it be ok to mock someone who believes in same-sex marriage, because that's a choice too, isn't it? You can change your opinion on same-sex marriage, much like religion, but it wouldn't be ok to insult someone who believes in same-sex marriage, would it?

 

So let's say I believe that the earth is flat, or that the moon is made of cheese....

Is it cruel and insensitive and "mocking" my beliefs, for you tell me my belief is wrong?

Is that the same thing as telling me my sexuality is wrong?


How about a devout Christian who firmly believes that Jews are to blame for killing Jesus so Jews should be segregated and persecuted, as many Christians have believed throughout history. (The Catholic Church in fact officially taught this idea up until the 1960s)

Are we allowed to tell that Christian he is wrong to believe that, or do we have to respect that view, just because it is his deeply held religious belief?


I think your argument is fatally, fundamentally flawed. Beliefs are not inherent parts of who someone is, beliefs can be wrong, and beliefs can be changed.

Someone can believe that 2+2=5, but that belief is wrong. On the other hand, someone's innate characteristic, like race or sexual orientation, cannot be wrong and cannot be changed. It does a disservice to equate the two completely different cases.

 

But who are you to say that Christian beliefs are wrong, much like who are Christians to say that homosexuality is wrong?

 

I think you missed the point...re-read the proposed scenarios again, and it should become clear why the comparison is flawed.

 

However, you must admit that your first example is factually disproven, and your second example is that of someone who condones violence against another party, which are both very flawed and extreme ideas. But yeah, I see what you mean by sexual orientation and race being unable to be wrong. They just are. I have to to disagree that beliefs can be changed, though. Sure some people can change, but not everyone is as open minded. To them their beliefs are part of who they are, and it's nigh impossible to change that.

 

A scientist could say it is "factually disproven" that a woman who has never had sex with a man could become pregnant and give birth.

A scientist could say it is "factually disproven" that a man could be tortured and executed, die for 3 days, and then come back to life.

Yet Christians believe those things actually happened. As an atheist I think they are wrong and that it is silly to believe unscientific things, but in saying so I am not personally mocking them as human beings, I am expressing my personal opinion on a belief. People can disagree on beliefs, both sides just need to respect the fact that others disagree.

Not any different from believing that the earth is flat or that the moon is made of cheese. Those are beliefs too, you have to apply a consistent standard.

And if someone genuinely believes, due to their religion, that God demands that Jews (or gays for that matter) be punished, who are you to disrespect their religious beliefs by telling them they are wrong?

I think the cases I presented poked major gaping holes into the whole argument you were trying to make. A belief is not something that should ever be considered beyond reproach in the way that an innate human characteristic like sexual orientation is.

 

I guess you make a good point, but the question at hand is whether or not it's ok to make fun of someone's religious beliefs. I'm going to show you a post that someone wrote:
"WAIT A MINUTE!!! God and Mary weren't married. FORNICATION!!! O_O"
Now you tell me if that's not making fun of Christianity or any similar religion. Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it's ok to poke fun at others who do.

 

Well, I think it is pointing out a legitimate inconsistency within Christian doctrine. Sex outside of marriage is fornication, God and Mary were not married, thus God impregnating Mary could be seen as fornication. More broadly, I think it is just highlighting the hypocrisy of Christian fundamentalists who use their religion to dictate sexual morality to us, while their Bible itself is filled with inconsistencies and discrepancies when it comes to sexual morality.

 

Well you said it, both sides will not agree when it comes to religion. If you want to tell them they are wrong then go right ahead, but keep in mind no one likes to be forced into changing their mind. If they want they will figure it out themselves. Constantly telling someone they are wrong will only create anger. If you can't possibly believe in something that is not based on science then that is your choice. Perhaps they have found comfort in those beliefs who are we to tell them they are wrong? And please remember, religious beliefs and induced hate are two different things...people can't tell the difference these days.

Once again, please consider the religious LGBT community ...some of them get the worst from both sides. A) For their sexual orientation B) For their beliefs.

Ugh and please don't act like you know the bible if you haven't personally read it.

I am done because now I am hungry :/

 

But don't you think even a little that the way in which the post was written could be perceived as hurtful to a religious person? There are religious folk on this site that might be hurt by the things said by the people on here, no matter how well-intentioned the post was. People go on this site everyday looking to balance their religious beliefs with their sexuality, and posts like these don't really help. It would be common courtesy for the religious members on here that you respect their beliefs as to not step on any toes.

 

^ All I see is a joke. Yes, someone may perceive something wrong, but that could always be the case. In fact, it is always the case.

It's not offensive to any religion, even Christianity because

1. according to the Judeo-Christian doctrine, God is perfect and had every right to do what he was going to do. Because he's God, it's not considered "fornication", therefore it is not considered a sin. Sin is ungodly and God is... godly.

2. It's mocking someone's hypocrisy, not their actual belief. Hypocrisy is something that Jesus actively struck. His followers even then would do something the Bible would say not to (work on the Sabbath) and then call him out for healing someone on the Sabbath.

 

Yeah, I think our debate got a little blown out of proportion :lol:. I and a few others were just trying to say that they should tread a little more carefully lest they get on someone's bad side. Religion and sexuality is a very sensitive topic that if you accidentally cross a fine line, someone could end up in tears or in rage. I'm drained from the whole thing :lol:. I hope you don't have any hard feelings , Rakkaus .

 

No, I don't. Pointing out inconsistencies and hypocrisy in religious doctrines, particularly those that involve condemning gay people to hell, is entirely appropriate.

What you are saying is further advancing the claims of people like Bryan Fischer, Tony Perkins, James Dobson, etc., that gay people who fight back against religious homophobia are "persecuting" Christians. That's silly. We don't have to be tolerant of intolerant beliefs.

---------- Post added 31st Aug 2013 at 07:48 PM ----------

Oh yes, same here, debate over...now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

 

Have we really gotten to this point because someone directly stated, unaltered, a religious belief? Really?

 

change the general nature of society. Well, shit, it's about time. End this bloody late capitalist Xian Empire of Money and Death!l I have no interest in marriage of any sort, but that's what it takes--sign me up!

 

@ Ridiculous:
I know, maybe we got a little out of hand... But seriously, this thread feels like a battlefield XD

 

Not anymore

---------- Post added 31st Aug 2013 at 04:10 PM ----------

This forum sometimes feels like a battlefield. This is probably the 5th thread I've seen, at the very least, that's had very heated debate and argument in the past 3 months.

 

Let me ask you this: if somebody told you that you have to bow down to a statue of Mickey Mouse to earn salvation, what would you say to that? I'm unfiltered and brutally honest, and so if your religion is a crock, I'm going to tell you about it.