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General News Mayhem in Virginia

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Libertino, Aug 13, 2017 at 1:44 AM.

  1. Libertino

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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...bd5460f0d7e_story.html?utm_term=.7c2527f78a04

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/us/trump-charlottesville-protest-nationalist-riot.html

    "Chaos and violence turned to tragedy Saturday as hundreds of white nationalists, neo-Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members — planning to stage what they described as their largest rally in decades to “take America back” — clashed with counterprotesters in the streets and a car plowed into crowds, leaving one person dead and 19 others injured."

    "Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D), who had declared a state of emergency in the morning, said at an evening news conference that he had a message for “all the white supremacists and the Nazis who came into Charlottesville today: Go home. You are not wanted in this great commonwealth.”"

    Today in Charlottesville, VA, a clash erupted between far-right demonstrators and counter-demonstrators. There were fist-fights and screaming matches in the streets, followed by a car plowing into pedestrians along the route of the demonstration. 1 was killed, and 19 were injured.

    Donald Trump condemned the violence, though some criticized his response as being too equivocal and mild.

    Do you see these types of demonstrations as being indicative of a nation more divided than it has been since the turmoil of the late 1960s? Are these kinds of "street-fights" going to become more commonplace? Were Trump's remarks enough to address the situation? What can be done to prevent further clashes of this nature?
     
  2. KyleD

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    I think that the white nationalists and neo-Nazis are very social media savvy and are able to create a presence much stronger than they actually are. To say that America is divided is blowing things out of proportions. The vast majority of people in the U.S. don't care for stuff like and get along just fine.

    Trump can't really condemn them because they are the ones who put him in power. There really isn't anything that can be done because these neo-Nazis are appealing to the youth who are being fed a steady diet of misinformation and lies through social media. The only solution is proper education.
     
    #2 KyleD, Aug 13, 2017 at 3:41 AM
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017 at 3:43 AM
  3. Blast

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    Despicable Nazi murderers.
     
  4. Mimikyu

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    Can i go one goddamn day without seeing something like this? Just one? The stress is getting to me and i cant afford a psychiatrist at this rate. I work with computers and see this shit daily. Theres no escape and i'm going nuts over here.
     
  5. Libertino

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    Unfortunately, no, you can't completely escape this as this is our reality. However, I agree with Kyle in that we are not as divided as some pessimistic proclamations would have us believe. But a few loud extremists make themselves heard and there is violence, and in this case, someone dies. It's not something we should shut out. We have to face it and address it.
     
  6. Blast

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    I am not an intellectual. But, in my opinion, these clashes will not stop. This is all occurring because of tensions which have been bubbling up for years. The neoliberal consensus is falling apart and so its reluctant supporters are scrambling for new ground - The politically aware are being polarized and the people are being taken with them. This is a war for the soul of our nations. If anyone manages to stop these clashes, they will only be delaying the inevitable or they will only redirect this on to another battleground. People are angry.
     
  7. mlm1234

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    it just seem like the left and right have all gone insane, and everybody has to be ever extreme and non central ground group can survive now as a political party
     
  8. Jennifer M

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    The neo-nazi's and KKK are mostly just wanting to cause trouble and to get their name and face in the news. The Klan has been laying low around here, but in the rest of the south, not so much. It seems that this revival started when states started taking down Confederate memorials and statues. As far as that goes, I have been to a protest to keep the memorials up. I don't feel that it's right, or even ok to take them down. But the white supremacists just want to cause trouble. Their extremist views are offensive to a lot of white people, myself included. Granted everyone has a right to their beliefs, as long as that right doesn't infringe on the same right of others. Hate each other if you want. It's pathetic, but it's also virtually to completely impossible to change their views. I do want to mention a viewpoint of mine. This is strictly opinion, and not professed as fact.

    I think everyone is prejudice against something. Whether it's religion, race, political affiliation, nationality, or something else everyone hates someone. Anyone who says they don't, to me, is a liar. And I'm no exception. I keep my views to myself, but there are people I'm not particularly a fan of.

    But then I'm not joining an extremist group and planning terrorist attacks either. The people that are doing this, need to be locked up, and in the off chance that they get out of prison, they need to lose their ability to reproduce, by whatever means are necessary.
     
  9. gravechild

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    I'm disappointed more people aren't speaking out against this. Combined with Trump's victory, it doesn't exactly paint a positive picture of modern America.
     
  10. Aussie792

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    I also have concerns about the left's role in corroding ordinary political culture but you can't ignore that this incident is a group of explicit holocaust supporters, pro-Confederate celebrants of trechery in the name of white supremacy and the terroristic murder of an anti-racist protester can't be put at the feet of the left and right equally.

    David Duke declared a race riot to be inspired by the promises of Donald Trump. Trump, in an uncharacteristically lukewarm statement, refuses to give more than an anodyne and vague criticism of violence without identifying any perpetrators.

    That's not enough. A government and political leaders can't refuse to make a value judgement on what is literally a mob of pro-genocide race rioters acting in the belief it has the backing of a legitimate government behind it. There has to be condemnation and in this instance, the only right thing to do is make it thoroughly one-sided, exactly as most Republican politicians have done.
     
  11. Libertino

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    Well-stated.

    One of Trump's primary criticisms of Obama was the latter's refusal to make a strong condemnation of radical Islamic terrorism (or to even utter the phrase). Trump thus has no problem drawing a moral line when the perpetrators of violence are motivated by jihadism (and this I am not criticizing; Islamic terrorism should be accordingly named); naturally he sees it as an issue that some are unwilling to address or label it for what it is.

    There is no reason why the exact same standard shouldn't apply here. The mealy-mouthed centrism that we received from him was wholly unsatisfactory in addressing a toxic ideology whose adherents, whatever be Trump's actual role here, feel empowered by the ascendancy of Trump and his presidency. One should not be obligated to always make a moral equivalency between all sides in any conflict; it is sometimes appropriate to recognize that one side is more immoral than the other. It is sometimes appropriate to take a side.

    Trump, who so obstinately demanded that Obama and his supporters clarify their position on Islamic terrorism, should have done the same with white supremacy. A president cannot afford to be equivocal on an issue like this.
     
    #11 Libertino, Aug 14, 2017 at 7:06 AM
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017 at 7:07 AM
  12. mlm1234

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    True, all i was stating was not on any racial or other matters, stay the hell the way from those matters. its just seem like know u ever have to have an extreme view of everside left or right. u cant just say some ideas on the left are good some on the right r. why cant we have center ground approach we dont need to go to the extremes. both sides are just no just using and corroding political culture as u said. the branding of of both sides by each group is batshit crazy. there was corybon rally thing where i was it was weird how if u didnt agree that adding a garden tax onto u an increase of third or close to or over £3000 a year, u where altright or uncaring, my parents and sis would have to move if that happen and parents would and could afford to live anywhere else. aswell as saying his taxation system was insane,
     
  13. mlm1234

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    i main point was not on race riot, but just on what polites have become in the last years or so. ever side has just become extremes of its former self. nobody know just accepts that both side have good ideas and we need abit of both. example blair had had a left moral compones (i know the war, but i ment running issues in the country), but a right econmay outup. one the stuiped part now is both sides brand of each side with buzzwords and blanket statements, and if u dont agree with statement are then brand.
     
  14. FluffyLightFox

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    I don't know what y'all really got out of that. I've studied Nazi Germany and Stalin's USSR in history class. I worked a whole year (multiple grades combined) on totalitarian regimes in the 1930s, and personally researched stuff about modern dictatorships. So far the situation is pretty much an escalation of tension between forces that could very likely recreate history if given the opportunity, and the counter forces, mixed uniquely with America's lingering systematic racism and discrimination of minorities (I'm sorry, USA, but even the depths of your legislative and electoral systems were designed to discriminate; you're rotten to the core). All of that isn't really new. It's just escalating. It's been bubbling in the undergrounds for years or even decades. I doubt we'll see a new Nazi chaos in the near future, at least not of the scale of Hitler's Third Reich. That being said, imagine Nazis with nukes.. Anyway.

    What fairly shocked me was the median age of the mob.
    Some articles reported that the youngest people in attendance were in their mid-to-late teens (close to my age, basically). The oldest ones were barely older than 30 years old. I have the strong suspicion that those white young males were enrolled either online (you know, 4chan's /pol, obscure subreddits, other "anonymous" boards; heck, even Nazi Furries are a thing now) or in local groups (it's the US south after all, the KKK still effing exists, for some reason). Because you're right, "these neo-Nazis are appealing to the youth", especially when you know the situation of young Americans, combined with the lies that the eroding of white male supremacy is a threat to their lifestyle (which it is, but it doesn't have to be if tolerance is assimilated by them).

    Historians may look back at incidents like that like we look back at the lynchings of 1960s America, or worse, 1920 German nazi "protests". They may tell you that a monetary poor generation (the 20-35), united behind and manipulated through news means of communication, information, socialization, in despair or anger because they believe they have no future, that it has been robbed away from them by the establishment, Wall Street, immigrants, whatever, will form the base of radical movements the likes of which we thought we'd never have to see again. It wouldn't surprise me.

    I believe it's too late. America's education system is chaos and at this point I wouldn't be surprised if the number of educated children drops dramatically in the near future. We can educate, but a system that can sometimes fail to teach maths correctly won't soon implement courses on tolerance and/or civic awareness.

    (oh and let's not talk about the vagueness of the Orange in chief's condemnation; we all know who took what out of it)

    EDIT:
    I wouldn't accept the idea that racial cleansing (especially when it's promised as "peaceful") and the idolization of Hitler. And I'm a white male. I understand wholly why my black, jewish, asian, etc, friends are more than condemning those movements. I heard those in Virginia chanting "Fuck you f@ggots", and "Blood and soil" (which is an actual nazi chanting), and I saw them making Sieg Heils. There is a reason why we have legislation in Germany and France which prohibits depiction of Nazi symbols, except for educational purpose. It's not censorship, it's learning from history.
    This is past the point where I can say "well I can see why they're thinking like that".
    If you think tolerance of every single attitude or opinion or idea or proposal is the solution to a peaceful society then I suggest you read on the Tolerance Paradox. It should change your opinion on things.
     
    #14 FluffyLightFox, Aug 14, 2017 at 10:18 AM
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017 at 10:23 AM
  15. mlm1234

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    EDIT:

    I wouldn't accept the idea that racial cleansing (especially when it's promised as "peaceful") and the idolization of Hitler. And I'm a white male. I understand wholly why my black, jewish, asian, etc, friends are more than condemning those movements. I heard those in Virginia chanting "Fuck you f@ggots", and "Blood and soil" (which is an actual nazi chanting), and I saw them making Sieg Heils. There is a reason why we have legislation in Germany and France which prohibits depiction of Nazi symbols, except for educational purpose. It's not censorship, it's learning from history.
    This is past the point where I can say "well I can see why they're thinking like that".
    If you think tolerance of every single attitude or opinion or idea or proposal is the solution to a peaceful society then I suggest you read on the Tolerance Paradox. It should change your opinion on things.[/QUOTE]


    again not talking about idolization, just that u can look at both sides of political party, like 2010 with torys and libs, torys the nasty party actuality introduced gay marriage. lib nice guys very liberal accualy help introduce and hike tution fees. so say one party has it all is just stuiped.
     
    #15 mlm1234, Aug 14, 2017 at 10:43 AM
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017 at 10:43 AM
  16. FluffyLightFox

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    I see what you're talking about, but there are small issues with that comparison.
    1. This is not Great Britain. We probably would not be having this conversation if it was.
    2. Great Britain has a very different concept of free speech, one that is very common to Western Europe, and opposed to America's (In Western Europe we have anti-hate speech laws; America doesn't)
    3. This is not 2010 any more. Again, we probably would not be having this conversation if it was.
    4. We are not talking about parties any more but about organized movements functioning in parallel with the government and trying to disseminate their ideas into people and inject their ideologies into political platforms whilst integrating government agencies (cf. the FBI report on KKK presence in the police). Parties are gonna die, at least as we know them, at least in Western Europe, and probably in the US. Movements federate. People want to follow an ideology, a leader (Trump, Macron, Le Pen, whoever the heck is in charge of Podemos in Spain). Old parties still remain but are dwindling and dying. Both Democrats and Republicans have flaws (although I'd point out one has nastier ones but that's another discussion) but this is not about them. Even if it is the Alt Right, it's not a party. It's "officially" a think tank and really an organized movement which is built and directed in places unknown to old time politicians and political analysts, that feeds off the fear of young white men who see the privileges they were promised to have over everyone else being stolen, along with their money (from different people, actually) and are told "This is the enemy who is threatening your white identity, your white supremacy, the land that we, white persons, conquered, crush them".
    5. We are talking about literal nazis and the KKK marching in the streets with robes and pointing hats brandishing flags with swastikas on them, making the Sieg Heil salute, and shouting slogans from 1930 Germany. This is the stuff we see in History textbooks. It's textbook nazis, and I, as a person in a country that was invaded by Nazi Germany in May 1940 (btw thanks to the yankees for saving our butts), who lives near two major sites of massacres committed by nazis (look up the 3 days-long Tulles Hangings, and the Massacre of Ouradour-Sur-Glanes), am not letting the sympathizers of those we hanged for their war crimes do anything without a squeal.
     
  17. mlm1234

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    i know what ur saying, i wasnt making a comment on this issus just and overall political feel
     
  18. Blast

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    Gay marriage was a Liberal Democrat policy, not a Conservative Party policy.
     
  19. mlm1234

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    it was polcy for both, torys one who managed to get it through. where lib where a shit show through elected office
     
  20. Libertino

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    I feel we are getting a bit off-topic here.

    Thanks to those who answered the question(s), however.
     
    #20 Libertino, Aug 14, 2017 at 4:49 PM
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017 at 4:50 PM