Is there REALLY such thing as gender?

There is such thing as gender. It's just not the black/white, male and female a lot of people say it is. It's an entire world with a lot of secret places to explore.

 

Well, is sexuality really more than a social construct? People we would describe today as "homosexual" or "bisexual" have existed since the dawn of time, but the concept of sexual orientation to describe them has only existed in the last century. (And even today, it's a very Western conception of things)

Homosexual behavior existed in ancient Graeco-Roman society, but they didn't view it as defining someone as being "gay" or "straight". To an extent they had a conception of "sexual orientation" it was based on whether one was the active or passive member of sexual behavior. A man who was the 'top' in a sexual encounter with another man would be considered masculine and manly while a man who received oral sex from a woman would be seen feminine and less of a man. Our ideas of "gay" and "straight" would seem alien to them.

Sexual orientation is in a way a social construct built upon the social construct of gender. I identify as a "gay male" because that's how my society likes to classify things. But I'm attracted to individual human beings, I'm not attracted to any abstract concept of 'gender' (nor am I attracted to all people who happen to be male-gendered). It's just one component of what makes me attracted to someone. Modern Western society makes a big deal out of which gender one prefers and likes to label people based on that. But I don't think preferring males defines me as "homosexual" any more than only being attracted to blonds makes me a "blondosexual". It's an arbitrary distinction.

You and I are attracted to people who happen to be male, but their maleness is not the reason we are attracted to them, it's just one part of the complex array of chemical and psychological forces that determine human sexual attraction. I'm sure that there are plenty of males whom you feel no attraction toward. So why single out gender anymore than if you preferred thin people or tall people or brown-eyed people or curvy figures or geeky people or athletic people or whatever? We should celebrate sexual diversity in all of its expressions; everyone on earth has someone else out there who is the perfect match to fall in love with.

Not to say that gender and sexual orientation don't exist, per se, but they are the products of the society we live in. The labels can be useful for identifying ourselves as L, G, B, or T (or Q, I, A, P, etc.) but we shouldn't let them actually define us, as our deeply homophobic, transphobic so sincerely wishes to.

If we were to live in say, a post-gender society, then there would be no need to sort people into categories based on whom they are attracted to and love. People fall in love with each other, and society would see them as a happy couple in love, not as a "gay couple" or a "straight couple". To see people as unique human beings, rather than as genders.

Transgenderism should be seen as someone expressing their own unique individuality rather than simply shifting from one social template to the other in a binary configuration chosen by society. A transgender person is trying to become who they are on the inside, not merely conform to external expectations of what society expects from 'maleness' or 'femaleness'; as we know, those expectations vary widely across time and place, yet there have always been people who don't conform to them.

There will always be a LGBTQ people, but again I think imagining what a post-gender society would be like is a good thought exercise in gaining a different perspective on what it means to be LGBTQ.

 

You need to stop taking what other people say about their own personal experiences as a comment on you. What I wrote was about me and me only, I have a right to my own experience as a human being, and you do not own the only definition of what it feels like to have a confused physical sex/gender in the world. Also, I specifically wrote that my comments were about me and should not apply to others later in my post, so it is really annoying that you did not bother to read that and then posted an accusatory-sounding message to me about that very topic. I never said you have no options, I said I chose not to take mine. Please stop trying to cause arguments and try listening a little to what other people feel, my ability to accept being in a woman's body obviously has nothing to do with you at all. I don't live in your life, and you don't live mine either, so stop trying to criticize my perception of the world every time I express it - it is just as valid as yours is. If we are not open to different experiences than we can never be a supportive community that helps each other when we are in need. This is exactly why people have trouble talking about trans issues and learning more, because they get jumped on for being themselves and drawing on what they know, which is the only way one can learn.

 

l think you're getting at what l'm thinking but am not entirely sure.

What l wonder is why then, a trans person would use the argument of gender not being biologically inherent while still believing they were born the ''wrong'' gender?

Why is it wrong if it's not inherent? Say you feel like a girl and you have a penis. Why is that ''wrong"? Why doesn't it ''match up" if you also believe that men don't inherently feel an association with the masculine social construct of gender anyway?

And vice versa. l could see myself without any gender. l'm pretty feminine in appearance, l think because of that l'm interpreted as someone who is strongly attached to the female gender social construct, even though this isn't the case.

l think if people weren't so focused on these roles and who fits them THE BEST there would be no need for anyone to change genders, personally.

 

my opinion (and this is totally, 100% just my opinion and i claim no real scientific evidence for it) is that gender (note: i'm not referring to physical differences in the body like hormones etc as i see that as part of sex) is largely learned/based off of what one has learned, it is not inherent. from the second someone is born, society treats them, talks to them, etc etc a certain way and just as language gets absorbed amazingly quickly and naturally, so do more abstract things like gender.

there are trans* people who felt that they had the wrong body as early as age 5. what if that's because those 5 years of life were enough time to develop strong enough feelings of one's identity (ie. gender identity) and how it fit or didn't fit with how they and society saw themselves? it would go way deeper than that for the person involved, without a doubt, as there would be lots going on biologically/psychologically which i'm not going to even pretend to know about, but there you have it. my total non-scientific opinion, which very well could be wrong.

i also agree that things would be so much better if society wasn't so obsessed with boxes & labels.

 

This makes sense. l think a lot of gender identity is learned, actually.

And l've tried harder than anyone really needs to try to figure out which parts of myself and my sexaulity were influenced by the environment.

l do think some of my own gender identity was heavily influenced by my early years BUT l think that's the case for a lot of people and that it's totally normal.

l ''feel'' like and don't want to say it like l think l'm certain and feel what they feel, but l feel like some trans people view those of us that are cisgendered and appear to be comfortable with it as EXTREMELY comfortable with our gender...never feeling weird or more masculine one day and girlish the next. Or just totally not identifying with our physical gender appearance at all.

Because it was something people didn't talk about, ever, for so long that when a person felt ambiguous or even "wrong" in their gender they would be treated like a total freak if they brought it up.

Not a wonder it was considered a disorder and in some ways l view transitioning as reinforcing the idea that anyone's gender can really be "wrong" and further defining the rigid gender boxes.

 

But.. then.. how do you explain transgendered people who fit exactly with how society sees them? A (biological) guy who is very masculine, a (biological) girl who is very feminine.. They can still be transgendered. Or look at it the other way around.. A (biological) guy who is very feminine, a (biological) girl who is very masculine.. maybe even a guy or girl who loves to crossdress.. They don't have to be transgendered at all.
Those things don't seem to make sense to me if gender was just something society learns us.
This is also just my very non-scientific opinion, by the way.

 

l think a large number of cisgendered and seemingly normal people only fit into that extent because it's what is expected. You're praised for that behavior. Even as an adult woman, l never stop hearing about how l'm supposed to be and "the way men are'' for countless boring reasons folks like to reiterate to keep the gender ''war'' going.

Mostly this is hetero men and women who like to feel like they're very different from each other and that one gender is secretly the best.

So it's tiresome.

OTOH l do think some behaviors are influenced by the way we're wired and that it is related to gender but not that MOST people do not fit in to the predetermined boxes.

With the current system you have someone who could go either way with a lot of these behaviors as being unusual, when really that should just be normal but we're expected to display strong traits in accordance with our gender, or at least praised if we do.

So then what of the people that just don't match up at all?

As of now, they're trans or simply not treated like they do fit in wiht their gender even if they didn't decide to transition.

l don't think those people are unlike most members of their bio sex for environmental reasons alone, but l do think there's no reason for them to be considered anything more than an unusual member of their biological sex and not a member of the opposite sex because society thinks that's who they're more similar to.

To make the point again, if so many people weren't influenced by gender stereotypes there wouldn't be so many people who fit these roles so perfectly and the outliers wouldn't be considered so unusual.

l don't think anyone needs to change genders to help make the gender roles less rigid, it seems like that implies the opposite. But honestly most of good friends throughout life haven't been types who perpetuated this sort of thing.

So l think there are lots of people who just are what they are and have no sense of allegiance to any kind of gender definition, some LGBT and some not. These are the ''normal'' seeming people to me, lol.

 

it seems you're referring to gender expression (how someone outwardly expresses themselves and thus what society actually sees), whereas i was more referring to gender identity (how someone sees/feels about themself and how they fit or don't fit into society). just because you're physically a man who expresses himself in a masculine way, thus fitting what society expects to see of you does NOT mean your gender identity is male. the same could be said of the other examples you gave.

as i've said before, people try to make gender out to just be as simple as one or two things (for example, gender roles or how society sees someone), but really it's as layered and complex as an onion. as i noted in my theory about gender identity/expression being learned, I think that that is only part of a larger picture. of course biology (eg. sex, hormones, etc), psychology (eg. personality), etc plays a part in this too, but i just don't know about those things to go into that.


also, +1 to all that OMGWTFBBQ said.

 

Actually, it seemed like you were referring to gender expression. That's why I gave the example of a guy expressing himself in a female way (being himself), thereby not fitting what society expects at all, but still feeling like a male, and not even thinking about transitioning.
I was specifically talking about people's gender expressions (which is nothing more than a social construct, by the way) not fitting what gender they are, and still feeling like they're in the right body.

EDIT. Just saw you pretty much just said it yourself.

EXACTLY! So if you have the male body, and you express yourself in a masculine way, because that's just who you are; a masculine individual, then how come you can still feel like a girl inside? Because -- in my eyes -- that has absolutely nothing to do with how masculine or feminine you are, or how you express yourself, or what society thinks you should express yourself. It has to do with something inside your brains that tells you you belong to another body than the one you were assigned.

We can agree do disagree, though. In the end, at least for now, no one will ever know.

 

actually, i think we agree for the most part. i'm happy to agree to disagree on the more minor things.

 

Dude! New term! I am totally a Blond-osexual! Gimmee a blonde!!!

---------- Post added 13th Jan 2013 at 07:43 PM ----------

I have seen some guys say GAY MEN are girls. Um no. Gay men are men! They can act feminine, and some may do drag, but if they were WOMEN they would be transgender, not gay. I take offense to that notion because it would be saying I MUST be a lesbian, because BUTCH LESBIANS MUST BE MEN! They are NOT men, they may act masculine, and dress male sometimes, but they are WOMEN! There is something that makes it confusing for some gay men and lesbian women, are they gay or are they trans, and I think that the above notion is part of their confusion. I have never been able to be a lesbian, I am a guy, guys like girls sometimes but it don't make them a girl...and guys who like other guys it don't make them a girl either...that is sexual orientation not gender.

 

The way it was decribed to me by a girl (mtf) I dated once, was that it felt like it wasn`t natural, not a part of her, which made it sound more physical to me. She said it was like she had been waking up one day, her entire life, to suddenly find this alien chunk of meat down there. If I suddenly had woken up with one, it would freak me out as well, so I could very much understand the alienation she felt towards a body part of hers. It always sounded really logical to me, when she explained it that way.

Males and females have certain physical differences. Men tend to have more hair growth, there are differences in body shape, etc. So, it makes sense to me that if you are a woman on the inside, you would want to look like one on the outside too. I do not quite get how that has so much to do with social constructs. The make up, clothing, etc, sure, maybe, but mostly people dress according to their body shape, to make bodies look good, it`s not just for covering up If you want to look like you have a male body, you would dress differently than one who wishes to have their bodies be female. So, clothing does not have to do with social constructs either, but it can. However, a male does not usually have feminine hips. So, if I wanted to dress like the male I felt I was (if I did), I would not choose white pants with a black shirt!

Make up has functions too. Enhancing things we females feel is attractive. I am not sure if I think it is a social construct related to gender, as people of different cultures and gender has been doing it historically. Body painting too, has applied regardless of gender.

 

Ehh just to be sure, this was aimed at me, or? Because I absolutely 100% agree with you; that is exactly what I've been trying to get across! How feminine or masuline you are has absolutely nothing to do with your gender. Just as the way you dress doesn't have to have anything to do with gender. They're completely different things.
I haven't mentioned sexual orientation, though (?), because I fail to see how that is in any way related to transgenderism.

 

yep, i could see that was what you were trying to say, buddy! I really did not like it when somebody told me that some gay guy was really "just a girl"...you know, some transmen are gay men! So that means they are really still girls who just play around with penis' right? Made me wanna pop him! Some gay men are also really manly men, so this is an insult to call gays not men.

so it only has to do with transgenderism as far as many straights do not see any difference between a gay man doing drag for a party, a cross dresser who is straight, and a transwoman not yet fully transitioned. To them, all are men who are "girls"...they don't see that being gay does not mean you feel transgender, and they don't see how being transgender is not gay.