Egalitarianism or Feminism?

*groans*

I don't...

Are you serious?


Men are having a serious problem being swept under the rug and you seriously have the audacity to try and twist it around to be about women's problems?

This is the reason people don't want the label.

---------- Post added 21st Jun 2015 at 12:12 PM ----------

People don't even do that now.

Any issue that feminism brings up tends to blow up and get huge. Any dissent against a point made by someone identifying as feminist can easily be hand brushed away with terms like 'misogyny' and 'sexism' even if the point being made is valid. Feminism is a pretty large force in this country and they get taken very seriously ( even the completely crazy ones ) yet somehow people are still convinced that women's issues are trivialized. I don't understand it.

 

I don't think you understood what she was saying, Simple Thoughts. The system in place that causes men to be elevated above women is the cause of many of men's problems; she was not saying men's problems don't exist, just that they are the result of the same system that causes women's problems. If you read my response after Fallingdown's, you can see where I highlighted some men's problems that are not the result of misogyny or the patriarchy, but many are. Men not being taken seriously when they claim abuse from a woman is part of it: women are seen as weaker than men and therefore any man who gets abused by a woman is either a "pussy" or is just lying. That can absolutely be tied to the way we view women. The issues go hand in hand.

 

I think the real idea is that gender inequality isn't just "womens' problems". It affects men adversely too, for exactly the reasons you've said in your post, among others.

ETA: Ah, Tennyson! You beat me to the punch.

 

Yes, I'm dead serious. If people don't want the label because of that, then fine, they can keep calling themselves egalitarians or equalist or whatever.

You could come back with some real arguments though which proves me wrong. That would be nice.

 

My point here was simply that I bring up an issue that affects men ( which isn't taken seriously in the slightest ) and the very first response was basically "Actually that's a woman's issue"

But whatever

I get it


If we aren't talking about things that affect women we're being misogynistic. Men are the root cause of all problems in the world so we just need to keep ignoring their problems.

Once the partiarchy has been abolished by only focusing on women's issues all problems men face will magically dissapear and the world will know peace. There is no room to talk about both side by side after all.




I seriously don't even know why I bother anymore.


I give up.


This is why I stopped talking about politics and feminism on facebook too. I'm clearly just an idiot who doesn't understand anything.

 

Well the more you misrepresent the arguments presented to you, turn to exaggerations and generalizations, and don't actually engage the arguments that are presented to you, then yeah, no wonder you are coming off the way you are. It doesn't appear that you are actually interested in the discussion, so then what's the point in discussing it with you?

 

You clearly are not understanding what people are saying at all. When we say that the patriarchy is at fault, we are bashing a system where manhood is supreme compared to femininity. This affects both feminine men AND women.

When people say men's problem's are the cause of misogyny, we are NOT saying we hate men or that women have worse problems than men do. We are saying that men are hated if they do anything that society considered to be "woman-like" in behavior. By fighting misogyny, we are also fighting for men's rights to be as feminine and as sensitive as they want, because those things do not have to be associated with "degradation".

Or to make another example: If a straight man is hated because he's weak, shy, and talks with a lisp....is he hated because the person is heterophobic? Or is he hated because the person is homophobic and associates those things with gay stereotypes? (Hint: It's the latter, even if this man is not gay, he is hated for anti-gay sentiments)

Fighting heterophobia does not allow straight men to be cutesy crossdressers, and fighting misandry still does not allow men to be sensitive or taken seriously in rape cases. It's a problem with our systematic structure that hates femininity.

By the way, patriarchy benefits women in some ways as well. We can wear pants and we get custody of our children because we're "weaker". While men also suffer from it because they have limited expression.

Patriarchy =/= All men hating and oppressing all women

Patriarchy = A system where a very limited style of macho male attitude is supreme over femiinity and anything associated with it

 

Alright then.

Here's my problem.

When something affects women in a negative light we don't offhand it by saying "Oh well if only men weren't encouraged to be so Blank than it wouldn't happen" We pretty much jump straight to the "THROW HIM IN JAIL AND LET HIM BE RAPED!" response.

When something affects men in a negative light the first response is entirely different and tries to take the issue and move the goalpost somewhere else to a different issue. One that isn't necessarily an issue that shouldn't be addressed, but one that still keeps the original issue in it's current postion of "Swept under the rug"


In our current climate if someone made a video like those abuse ads you see all the time about women and put men in the spotlight it would cause controversy and there would be severe backlash against it. A certain subsect of feminism would be offended and most people would probably just have a laugh about it.


Also to the point brought up about "men are considered stronger where women are considered weaker"

That is because of sexual dymorphism (probably spelled that wrong ) of our species. Men are generally physically stronger because men and women had different evolutionary purposes.

Men in the early stages of humanity were the ones doing all the hunting and fighting and thus their evolutionary track lead them to be naturally stronger ( generally speaking )

So the viewpoint has a basis in reality, and yes it probably is part of the problem. What I don't like is it painted as the 'sole' reason and being used to take the issue and completely shift it's focus away from what I was saying to start with.


I know I don't hold any popular viewpoints or opinions in this forum. I'm a strange person who has a really weird perspective on the world around me. I try my best to convey what I'm trying to, but generally I fail miserably.

I don't know.

Sometimes I feel like I'm really smart, and then other days I feel like I'm a complete moron. Maybe I'm both or something. I'm the smartest idiot on the planet or maybe the dumbest genius W/e

I don't even know what it is about feminism that ends up irking me so much, but I feel compelled to jump into these threads and throw my two cents into the ring.