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LGBT News Daniel Radcliffe speaks out

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by PatrickUK, Jun 9, 2020.

  1. PatrickUK

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  2. zuice

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  3. zuice

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    Thank you Daniel Redcliffe for affirming the dignity and equality of transgendered, gay and binary individuals.
     
  4. Spartan 117

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    Yeah, I’m really baffled why she’s on this crusade. She claims she has this “butch lesbian” and “trans” friends who support her stance, but I’ve never met anyone from the LGBT community that’s “terrified” of trans people coming for their identities as she says. She also says she’s read ‘studies’ which I’m intrigued by.

    I did read an excellent Twitter thread about it but of course I immediately lost it again. It spoke about how certain feminists perceive their identity as wrapped in a shared “girlhood” and that growing up perceived as male disqualifies you from that. However, to say that all girls have the same upbringing is a little wide of the mark.

    If it’s about physical anatomy, as someone pointed out - this whole argument started when she said the term “people who menstruate” should just be “women”. If you’ll excuse the bluntness, does she still menstruate? Is she any less of a woman?

    The problem is that for some, the experience of being a cisgender woman from birth and experiencing the mistreatment (from men) that comes with that is so wrapped up in their identity, anything else seems like a threat to who they are. It’s hard to convince them otherwise.

    The argument that “sure you’ve faced the same if not more oppression - but it wasn’t the exact same oppression so you should categorise yourself slightly differently” seems arbitrary and hurtful. It reminds me a little of the argument that a few people use to try and separate the T from LGBT. It’s the same struggle and really there isn’t a competition, we can all work towards the same goal.

    Honestly, I don’t think most cisgender women are worried about trans women coming for their identity. JK seems to have just decided for some reason, this will be the hill she’ll die on.
     
  5. zuice

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    Thank you for the information.I hope everyone finds diversity in people, just as enjoyable as they seek it in art.
     
  6. chicodeoro

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    As a transwoman who is only just coming to terms with it all and is finding it hard to be around men at the moment, when Daniel Radcliffe talks in terms of being an 'ally' it makes my heart sing. As for JK Rowling, I don't know where her head is at.
     
  7. Linning

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    I don't agree with JK Rowling stance at all, but I will say that I do agree that no male-born individual (whether they currently identify as women or not) will ever fully understand nor grasp what being born female and growing up perceived as female is like, the same way I will never understand what being a woman but being born in a male body is like.

    To give another example if you take a story where a white individual is beating up a black man and then beating up a gay man and then beating up a jewish man. They are all being beaten up and the end result might be similar at first sight but the reason why they were beaten and the trauma comes from a different place, hence why on top of being assault the act of targeting specific people in a similar fashion but for different reasons have specific name Racism/Homophobia/Antisemitism. A black man/woman who is straight might understand what persecution is like but can't fully grasp homophobia and vice versa.

    Not every woman have the same experiences of course but I do think certain things you only go through if you are born female (even if you happen to be a trans man) in a way others who might experience similar won't fully grasp nor understand nor take in.

    I am glad Daniel took a stand though, JK's comments are appalling and she is being deliberately obtuse.
     
    #7 Linning, Jun 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
  8. Spartan 117

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    Oh, of course! Everyone has their own unique struggles and experiences and that deserves to be recognised. I just find it interesting that she can’t just say “we’re women with different experiences and hardships”. She says she loves and supports trans people, but it seems like she’s saying “you can never be the same as us, it’s just a biological fact”. Then she posts an article about a lesbian who’s “terrified” to say the same thing.

    I can’t help but wonder who is pretending otherwise? Everyone is different, physically, mentally - I guess the question here is where exactly do you draw the line? And why? I can only assume she feels so strongly about this because it threatens her own identity as a cisgender woman - and being a women to her means having certain anatomy and having a certain shared experience. It seems to me that she’s saying the door is firmly locked to anyone outside that club.

    It’s hard to argue with someone who feels that their very identity is under attack.
     
    #8 Spartan 117, Jun 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
  9. solarcat

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    True. Much to my regret, I don't know what it's like to be a 12-year old girl. But while Rowling does, she does not know what it's like to be a young Black woman, a young gay woman, a young Deaf woman, etc. And while there are shared experiences, everyone has their own based on their ethnic and economic backgrounds. So I really don't understand this argument. So what if I don't have the same experiences as most ciswomen? They don't have the experience of growing up as transwomen, but I still accept them as women.
     
  10. Linning

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    And that’s why I said that I still see trans women as women, my answer was to the former post about JK Rowling seeming to feel like women go through stuff that disqualify others from experiencing them if they aren’t cis-women. My answer is that it is FACTUAL. I am a gay woman of color but I have shared experiences with other women that are solely based on my genitalia and being born female and nothing to do with my other traits and something I know I wouldn’t experience if I had been born male or grew up perceived as male. It doesn’t mean that trans women aren’t women (to me at least), it’s just to say she isn’t wrong in stating that fact (it doesn’t mean the rest of her argument is okay).

    I also don’t think you can really say " I see all cis-women as women despite them not having the same experiences and not being trans/knowing what it’s like to be a trans-woman." Because by default all cis-women are women regardless of how they experience womanhood. So whether they experience trans experiences or not can’t really invalidate that though not saying that trans folks not experiencing certain things invalidate them either.


    JK Rowling, alongside other women who feel similarly (and from women groups I am in, unfortunately there seem to be a lot) simply feel threatened, I think, by what they see as another form of oppression by men (since they don’t seem to perceive trans women as women) of women and female experiences.


    Her crusade is incredibly harsh and offensive and I don’t stand behind it, but I will say the overuse of terms like “TERF” at anyone (usually women) who acknowledges what I feel are valid concerns re sharing certain spaces or activities (sports for example) doesn’t really help the issue. Some arguments that are brought forwards by such women I don’t always agree with, but addressing those concerns respectfully and with data would be 100% more efficient.

    Trans- women are women in my book, 100%, but because cis-women have had to deal with very specific issues that have shaped them, their history and more often than not their lives, especially at the hands of men (which is different to transwomen who are, again, women), I don’t think it’s exactly fair to expect ALL women to get behind self-ID and tell them to just take it and accept it because “trans-women are women” and dismiss their concerns as if it’s nothing and invalid.


    Understanding that cis and trans female experiences differ is the BASE to building a bridge between the two. Acknowledging how those stories and experiences differ and how to mend the gap and address valid concerns based on those experiences and stories is KEY, in my book, to the full integration of trans individuals within women spaces. If one brushes off those differences as if they don’t matter and are irrelevant and anyone addressing them is a TERF, all it does is increase the gap between us two and rub people the wrong way. Nobody tries and integrate a friendship group by taking over and shutting everybody down. As a lesbian cis-woman of color, I do NOT feel threatened by the existence of trans-women but I do see similarities between the “all live matters” movement and the “shut up Karen, transwomen are women” movement (both are valid statements btw, but they are both based in not listening to the other party and taking the other people’s valid concerns about their own identity as an insult to their race/gender-identity), for me those are both dangerous and detrimental. Though thankfully only claimed by a small portion of the white and trans community.

    The thing is, I feel anyone (regardless of sex or gender identity) who has read a book about woman history would totally understand the concerns some “TERFs” (/concerned women) are raising and would WANT to sit down with the likes of JK Rowling to discuss and address those concerns and explain and find out what policies could satisfy both sides without othering either groups nor repeating history of imposing things on (cis)women that they just have to put up with regardless of how they feel or what’s best for them.


    So I don’t agree with JK Rowling but I also don’t agree with the will of people to shut down a conversation that NEEDS to be had and addressed in fear it will hurt people’s feelings or to be called a TERF.

    JK Rowling is doing it wrong by not being open to discussing and changing her stance but I feel the other side of the fence is doing the exact same.
     
  11. smee

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    Did Rowling even read the article that she commented on? It was about public health requirements for basic sanitation. Inclusion as we often think of it wasn't an issue until she brought it up. The headline was clarified in the third paragraph:

    "An estimated 1.8 billion girls, women, and gender non-binary persons menstruate, and this has not stopped because of the pandemic. They still require menstrual materials, safe access to toilets, soap, water, and private spaces in the face of lockdown living conditions that have eliminated privacy for many populations."

    (Not to mention the more than a few men who menstruate, as unpleasant as that may be to some of them.)

    The article goes on to talk about the need to respond to the COVID-19 pandemic by ensuring the clean water, supplies and places that are needed by those who menstruate. Someone should ask Rowling if she really means to make things unsanitary/unsafe for people who menstruate but don't identify as female, if she just didn't read the article, or what?

    https://www.devex.com/news/sponsore...ple-who-menstruate-97312#.XtwLnv0aEeR.twitter
     
  12. gravechild

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    The difference is "all lives matter" is used by white people to shut down a less privileged group, while cis women hold certain privileges over trans women. It wasn't until recently that the tables have started to turn
     
  13. Linning

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    I’m not talking about privileges and the reasoning behind “all live matters”, I know full well it screams of privileges. I am simply saying that both “all live matters” and “transwomen are women” are VALID statements because both those statements are true, but when said in a way that intends to shut down a debate and conversations that desperately needs to be had (in the case of "all live matters" talking about the struggle of POC and systemic racism and in the case of “transwomen are women (deal with it)” the concerns some cis-women have regarding their history and their need for safe spaces) it totally invalidate those statements and make them unnecessarily controversial.

    Acknowledging facts and concerns and discussing them TOGETHER rather than meeting them by repeating the same sentence (like “all live matters“) would be so much more efficient and I do feel, is desperately needed in the case of trans individuals for the full integration of trans individuals within women spaces.


    There’s been a recent increase of posts from lesbians on here saying they feel pressured by trans individuals to sleep with them and are called TERFs and else if they start explaining they would rather not. That’s hugely problematic and it definitely means there need to be more talks between cis-women (straight or not) and trans individuals on civil grounds that don’t automatically resort to name calling or an attempt to shut down the conversation on either side because there seem to be valid concerns on all sides that need to be addressed and talked about openly and I believe would bring more unity and understanding on both side long-term and would favor a better inclusion rather than a greater divide.
     
    #13 Linning, Jun 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
  14. gravechild

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    To be fair, I think there's always going to be a segment of the population who absolutely refuse to see trans women as women (and trans men as men). As long as those people aren't in a position to influence others with that way of thinking, it shouldn't be as much of a problem.

    It seems to reach a boiling point especially in the LGBT community, perhaps because the groups have more interaction than their straight counterparts, not to mention the influence certain strands of feminism have within the lesbian community, sometimes at odds with what transgender people say and believe. I've heard about the pressuring, which both disappoints and disturbs me. It seems to be more widespread as of late, but I'm at a loss as to how to address and stop it? You'd think we would know better.

    Speaking of biology, upbringing... is tricky, since these things are often used to invalidate trans women's womanhood. Some can be triggered or feel ignored. Its not easy to admit you might be wrong, actually listen to someone who has a different experience, and continually try to improve.
     
  15. Linning

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    I fully agree with that, I don't think it will be easy and I definitely do think there will unfortunately be people who will always invalidate transwomen and simply refuse to accept trans individuals as valid which is incredibly harmful.

    I do feel though, or well, have hope, that by talking about the hard stuff, on both sides, more people will come around. I am on some UK forums and pages and hundreds of women are in support of JK Rowling's statements as they all share similar doubts and concerns which, so far, haven't really been addressed by the trans community, likely, maybe because there isn't (yet) any good solutions or answers to those concerns and/or doubts that would satisfy both party, but I do think if a conversation was created were both felt heard, more cis-women would come around and trans-women would end up being more included.

    I fully understand the need and will for trans individuals to just be accepted without having to justify, explain, or ask for permission/authorization and it's totally fair and understandable but that's also where understanding (cis) Women History and the traumas that mark and have marked most cis-women and how it means this approach won't work is paramount to mending the bridge between cis and trans and why cis experiences are important (even if at first sight they might come across as a way to invalidate trans individuals which I am sure by some are used as such but actually are valuable in a totally different way.)
     
  16. alwaysforever

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    I find stances like JK Rowling's are exhausting. The consequence of people being exclusionary are very real. It's really disappointing and hurtful, and really our lives are hard enough without wealthy celebrities denigrating our existence when we can't help who we are. It's gross.
     
  17. La Corbeau

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    J.K. Rowling has no hold on Hogwarts and wizardry. She may have created the framework but it is us that truly own the world. Art is to be perceived by the viewer and she is nothing but an old obsolete part of the process. Also she 100% did not have to kill off Lupin & Tonks, that was just horrible. And Tonks was definitely gay.
     
  18. Loves books

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    I always though Tonks came across as gay in the books and in the movie she also came across as gay but she could be bisexual, even though her love story with lupin felt forced.
     
  19. Hawk77

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    I have been thinking about these issues a lot and was interested to see this thread. I am a cis woman and a lesbian. (I do get mistaken for a man a lot though based on my appearance). I fully accept that trans women are women and should be included in women’s spaces. I agree it was wrong for JK Rowling to make transphobic comments especially since her books have been so loved by LGBTQ folks. I do feel a bit of sadness though when realizing the women’s spaces existing at all could be transphobic. I saw the vagina monologues when I was younger and enjoyed it but realize now it was exclusionary to trans women. I have been reading about the sports issue a lot. I am an athlete and benefitted greatly from women’s sports. I believe trans women should always be welcome in women’s sports but I am not sure how sports can be 100% inclusive to all genders including non-binary genders and still continue to have a women’s category. I am older in my 40s. I learned about second wave feminism first. I listened to women’s music from the 70s even when I was younger. In college I did start learning about trans issues we read Leslie Feinberg Stone Butch Blues and Transgender Warriors that was long before these issues were in the news as much. Part of the reason I came to this site was to learn more about trans issues and gender issues. I have known a few trans men but have never had a trans female friend. I am definitely a little worried about being called a TERF. I will try not to be. I just want to learn more about the issues.
     
  20. QuietPeace

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    I am not sure when you saw VM, I only first saw it in 2010 and at that time and also in 2012 & 2013 when I was in it there was a monologue called "They beat the girl out of my boy, or so they tried" which is about the experience of trans women (the script is available online and performances are on youtube). VM changes over the years as Eve adds new monologues and some get dropped. VM was even performed at least once with an all trans woman cast. Also, when certain spaces are called trans exclusionary it is more about being invalidating or actively keeping trans women out not about ignoring trans women. In the case of VM prior to that monologue it was probably better labelled trans ignorant or not being specifically trans inclusive rather than exclusionary.

    The underlined portion indicates that you are not a TERF, if someone calls you one they are not paying attention to what you say.

    I am almost 60 so I also first learned feminism through the second wave, the first wave being ignored both by my very conservative religious upbringing and in school. I still call myself a second wave feminist. Many second wave feminists are trans inclusive, it just seems otherwise often because the most strident exclusionary feminists are second wave.

    Back to the original post. I don't really follow the news and so I did not really know much about JK's position though it does not sound very nice. Hearing Daniel coming out and saying what he did is nice.