cheating, divorce, and homosexuality

Sorry Quantumreality. It was supposed to be Sienna Fire quote. I don't know I guess it is my own childhood experiences seeing my father cheat often on my mother, and just having lied to myself about being gay that makes this such a touchy subject for me. I am not trying to be judgmental in any way. I just very much believe a person should not hurt others knowingly.

---------- Post added 5th Jan 2017 at 05:44 PM ----------

* I mean with my dad I was made to be part of his deception on several occasions where he would take me with him as his reason for having to go so and so just so he could cheat.

 

Did you ever erotically look at another of the same sex? Check them out? YES
Did you ever look at gay photos or porn? YES
Did you ever masturbate to gay porn or the idea of another of the same sex? YES
Did you ever fantasize about a same sex experience? YES
Did you ever have sex with your spouse and imagine you were with the same sex during the act? NO

Are those cheating? Maybe on some level, but there is a difference between fantasy and reality. Being sexual with a person in my own head is certainly different than actually being with another person.

Bunnydee, your comment here:

I would also argue that marrying a straight spouse when you know you are gay (even though you don't accept your homosexuality or fully realize it) is also taking away mutual consent and decision marking of the spouse, isn't it? For those who truly had NO idea that they had same-sex attraction, ok, but most of us knew we had same-sex attraction before marriage. I did.

I'm not making a judgment on marrying straight spouses, but just wanted to point out what I see as an inconsistent thought process.

By the way, Bunnydee, I'm so amazed that you came out to your husband this morning. I don't want to take this thread over to be about you, but I hope you're doing ok. Please let us know. (*hug*)

 

I think there's a point where you try not to be judgmental but I think there is also a point where you still have to think about things and make moral judgments. I think that lying to people is wrong and I think that lying to people you care deeply about concerning things they care deeply about is very wrong. That doesn't mean I haven't done it or that people who do are bad people, or that there might not be circumstances where it might make sense. But I don't think that changes the fact that it's wrong.

To be frank I'm not really even sure I understand the counter-argument...

 

Honestly OGS,

I think the bottom line here is NOT what we judge moral, but rather how we can and probably should put that aside in order to help out fellow ECers. If someone has cheated and admitted it here on EC, it is 'simply' data. We can't change what they did. Nor should we judge that, don't you agree? All we can do is make recommendations (if that is what the poster is asking for) as to how to proceed forward.

Just my thoughts.

 

Well, OGS has a point that you can't really change the past and you have to move forward, so shaming is counter productive.

On the other hand, what bothers me about this thread is the fact that users seem to be encouraging cheating and normalizing it as "a necessary part of discovering sexuality".

I'll give you an example. I never cheated personally, but when was I was extremely angry at my Mom, I punched her in the face. That happened last summer. We made amends and moved on, so bringing it up now wouldn't do much other than to make us re live something we want buried in the past. On the other hand, was what I did, "ok"? I would argue that I still did an immoral act that I should (and did) feel guilty about. No one should have encouraged me to do that as advice, and it shouldn't be considered okay that I did that. But since It's over and done with, bringing it up wouldn't help us anymore. That's the comparison I get from this.

---------- Post added 5th Jan 2017 at 03:31 PM ----------

Oops, I meant Quantumreality instead of OGS in the first paragraph. Although I do agree with him.

 

I would debate what is the "knowing"? I was in such a denial for awhile, I had convinced myself I was straight, then straight with issues, then just fighting to be straight. In all honesty, at the time of initial marriage in both my cases, in my mind I was straight and marrying for the right reasons that is how deep my denial became. I wouldn't allow even a thought otherwise.

Thank you. I am here, that is about all at the moment.

But as 'simple data' can we not inform the poster, they should stop the affair until they can have an honest conversation with their significant other, or would be wrong? I think in the original post that started this thread this was the point I made.

 

I don't actually entirely agree. Everything that has happened in the past is simply data. The only thing that you can really do with it is learn from it. No I don't think it makes sense to shame people. There's also nothing really to be gained though by pretending that regrettable past actions aren't regrettable--especially if you want them not to continue in the future. And frankly I think you do someone a grave disservice when you wallpaper over the actual problem--and I think that it certainly is not beyond the pale to think that part and parcel of the problem for many people dealing with issues surrounding sexuality is dishonesty (with ourselves and with others) and the normalization of that dishonesty.

 

Honestly, I don't see too many super shaming responses. A few here and there, sure. But mostly It's advice for people who are currently cheating to stop doing it, or to be ethical about it by fessing up sooner than later. You're going to need to come out to your partner anyway, so you owe them to be honest and ethical to them, especially if you've put them in danger of contracting HIV or other diseases.

That's not necessarily shaming, I view as blunt advice. If a person feels guilty about cheating and as stopped....shaming does nothing to help the situation. If they are continuing to do a "wrong" action and need advice, then advice to change the situation is for the best. Though obviously some people are more blunt about it. It happens with any subject.

---------- Post added 5th Jan 2017 at 03:50 PM ----------

*has stopped

 

No, no. What I said was that we shouldn't judge. I also said earlier that we shouldn't ever condone/encourage cheating - as Sienna Fire concurred with.

That doesn't in any way imply that we can't discourage someone from cheating. It is clear that we can show how cheating negatively effects ANY relationship.

Where I'm coming from. And where I THINK Sienna Fire is coming from - although I can only speak for myself - is that condemning someone for cheating or shaming them on this website is both totally counterproductive to the purpose of this website and ineffective in terms of trying to assist our fellow EC members seeking help.

---------- Post added 5th Jan 2017 at 07:01 PM ----------

I HEAR you, OGS. I'm not here to defend anything. However, if you can't change the past, you should at least learn from it, no? No one here is saying that cheating isn't regrettable. Nor even denying that it is immoral, depending on your own personal point of view. I think we can at least all agree that it is counterproductive in any relationship. The point here that Sienna Fire was making to being with - and again I can't actually speak for him - I think is that making a moral case against cheating towards anyone who admits doing so here on EC detracts from the purpose and effectiveness in helping them to move forward. That's far from condoning their actions, it saying that those actions happened and we can't change them, so let's take them into account and base our recommendations/advice on them. (That's what I mean by 'simply' data.)

 

Briefly, I think it's critical not to be shaming here precisely because it is an anonymous venue where a person may get the only support they can. I have never been married and conflicted, so I can only imagine the pain. Frankly, mental health and self harm are at stake in some cases, so I think it's vital to listen compassionately and offer judgment only in light of one's own experience. There (in my opinion) should be not much that's taboo to talk about and we all have a right to respect.

I also think we're seeing a broad cultural change regarding the place of monogamy and marriage generally. Even just in dating relationships I'm deeply confused sorting out my values and priorities in today's world. I too soon forget that many moral issues are actually relative and not absolute. That's really hard to grapple with at times.

Patrick

 

It would seem that we're all pretty much in agreement that cheating is not a good thing and shouldn't be condoned or encouraged here. We seem also to agree that shaming others is counterproductive to the mission here. While some have stronger opinions on the morality of cheating, we do have to realize that our purpose here isn't to instill a moral code on people seeking help and advice. Rather, to take whatever the current situation is and try to help them make it better. Remember, it's always about the OP.

I have been posting here since June of 2016. I have found the vast, vast majority of posts here to be helpful and genuinely sincere in a desire to improve the lives of our LGBT+ community. I'm incredibly grateful to be in such good company.

Cheers and love to you all! ride:

 

Your points might have some fairness in them, but nothing that I would think should cause you to stop your journey of self discovery. All that said, might be good for you to start another thread on your points as I am sure a lot of people will have thoughts that might help you see both sides of the equation.

In terms of the criticism on cheating, the sharp reaction some might get from reading others criticism is the exact signal needed to them that emotional resolution to such issue needs to be found from within. Throughout my journey, I found that the more I was challenged, the more I worked to rise above the challenge. And those reading these posts should read the good and the bad and find an emotional equilibrium between the two; regardless of what the issue is (in this case the thread being on cheating).

As well, when people are being critical, they are often doing so to mask their own internal struggles that are being fought. And EC is a place for people to vent to help them work though those issues.

I would suggest EC members take the positive reinforcement and negative reactions with the intention in which people are writing - to help others as well as themselves.

 

Okay I think understand what you were initiating here for SiennaFire.

I do fully agree we should not condemn or shame anyone for past mistakes whatever they are including that of cheating. There is not one among us that hasn't done something we regret. For me the only reason to even discuss issues of the past are for learning.

With that said, at every stage in the coming out and acceptance process we are trying to get past all the lies, misinformation, and self-doubt to fully understand and accept ourselves as we are. To do so we do have to be sometimes brutally honest with ourselves. We can move forward, accept or really see the truth of ourselves if we are still in a lie.

Personal experience aside, Cheating is just another form of evading the truth in our lives to ourselves and to others we involve. If we are hiding behind it, we are avoiding being honest.

While you are in the stages of coming out, it does no good to cheat. It hinders the process. How can one really address their internal questions and issues when there is undue influence from the emotions we feel while cheating on someone? It just makes sense that we are really trying 'figure things out' and get to that point of true acceptance, that we would stop cheating so we can analyze and evaluate honestly.