Are there really so many gender identities?

"Narcissistic-like traits" were your original words, not mine. To some extent I agree; individualism is a double edged sword that can be helpful for people who didn't fit the norm growing up; but it can also trap them inside this loop of putting words to their exact experience and thinking on it obsessively, trying to fit in somewhere else. In that case I can understand why this is interpreted as narcissism, because every experience that is outside the mainstream of a movement or label can become that person's "project".

Getting trapped in your own individual experience and not connecting to the outside world resembles narcissism, but it comes from this feeling of isolation that everyone is trying to avoid rather than the feeling of being "in love with oneself". It's emerging from trying to shake off the feeling of being broken or irreparably different, rather than thinking that one is the best and most important thing in the world.

We are brought up being told that we're special, it's true; but this is as a result of society no longer idealizing conformity like it used to. There are so many jobs and roles out there that conformity is no longer necessary for survival, and women are no longer dependent on men, and emerging from this is a trend of individualizing your skills and experience. I don't think that's narcissism as much as just society changing and not knowing what to do with it.

Anyways I think it's great that kids who don't fit in are no longer considered "broken". It's important to keep gender in perspective and not make your whole identity about your gender (and maybe this is the "narcissism" these psychologists are referring to); but we can't fault anyone for seeking their own experience.

---------- Post added 15th Jul 2014 at 10:49 AM ----------

Also just as the "kinsey scale" was originally intended just as a demonstrative tool to show that there is a middle ground between gay and straight (and that bisexuality doesn't have to be 50/50), all these gender scales will eventually hopefully serve to show that it is a continuum and that it's ok not to be at the extreme ends of the scale, rather than as a source of stress for a person to place themselves exactly on all the axes.

 

People do what people want. Just please don't shove it down people's throats if they don't understand.

 

Yes, there are. Just leave it at that.

 

For anyone interested in the proliferation of gender and sexual identities, I would strongly recommend Queer Theory. I took a fantastic class on this last semester at school, but all of the stuff we read and watched are pretty widely available and known materials. And if anyone is interested in what we read, I can suggest a few things from my class if you message me.

I learned a lot about how gender concepts came to be, how they've been disrupted by things, how they mix with race, class, sexual orientation, etc.

But for my professor, who is brilliant and has been teaching this stuff since before it was cool, the point is that gender identity itself needs to be disrupted because it is bogus and oppressive. The goal would be that gender would cease to be a thing and everyone could just be however they are without any kind of gendered connotation. I think that's fantastic, to be honest. The problem is always how to get from here to there (she didn't think it was to create more boxes and more identity categories, but to expose that those boxes don't hold up under scrutiny--none do. there is not any scientific basis to them, nor are they all that necessary) and what that would mean for identity categories of other kinds.

Edit: That's not to say that I would go around personally invalidating people's identities and neither would my professor, but that society as a whole would be better off without identity categories.

 

I'm with dreamwatch. I'm fairly sure gender isn't really a Thing, and that the proliferation of gender identities is mainly an attempt to understand the breakdown of the gender binary as it falls into oblivion.

 

Fair point about conformity in the workplace. I guess it depends, living in NYC I see a lot of people carving out niches for themselves but I recognize that's not the norm in other parts of the country.

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As for Ritalin, that's a whole other issue, I actually think that medicating kids is still a result of the outdated thinking that pathologizes them rather than trying to cater to their individual needs-- the opposite of individualization. Some people really do have ADHD; but other people hear about ADHD and think of it as an easy way to get out of certain things, get treated differently, obtain medication when it's not needed.

I do see a lot of people habitually pathologizing all their issues. Instead of "everyone's different, and many people have this characteristic that I have and it's perfectly normal and therefore my problems are solvable" they explain their personality in clinical terms and victimize themselves and feel helpless. And the self-victimization, identifying with an oppressed minority, can be addicting in some way. Maybe applying clinical terminology to every problem a person has has gone too far.

As far as gender identity, I don't know how much of it is a result of over-applying clinical terms to one's individual experience. But many people legitimately experience gender in different ways; I don't think I'm qualified to discredit someone's experience as being agender or genderfluid or anything else.

 

^ YEP there you go

I don't understand a LOT of nonbinary gender identities. And there are LOTS of them. My understanding of gender is limited to male, female, neutral, or none of the above. When people throw a bunch of "demi"s and stuff into the mix I get confused.

Does that mean these gender identities aren't real? No, I just don't really get it.

But I don't question the legitimacy of these gender identities, because these labels make people more comfortable with themselves. Who am I to question that?

If it makes you feel better about yourself in the long run I have no problem calling you by unique pronouns or labels. It's not my place to question others' gender identities when I spent so long questioning my own.

 

^^This^^

 

i share a similar viewpoint to what thedreamwatch said; i think we should be tearing down the existing genders, not building more walls.
but at the same time, with more and more gender identities emerging, and with the increasing awareness of non-binary genders, it is kind of destroying the two-box world we have. if each gender identity is a pixel on a 70" tv, we don't take notice of any of the pixels, really. we acknowledge that tgere are pixels that make up what we see, but who gives a damn about one of a million (and increasing) pixels.
[did that make any sense at all? i have no idea, i'm tired :lol:]

 

Intersex isn't a gender though...

But yes, I understand what you're saying. Gender can be confusing, it isn't always binary, and even I don't know what the hell I am half the time.

 

You're right, my b.

 

I wonder if the proliferation of identities has to do with the search for sexual partners ... it's easier for people to find each other if they know what the other wants, as long as everyone agrees on what the labels mean. Especially with the internet and internet dating, it's become easier to find people who fit exactly what you're looking for, because you can cast a wider net.

I'm not sure gender identity has much to do with what the culture defines as "masculine" or "feminine" ... people try to fit in with whomever they identify with. So if I take away the cultural definitions:

There are boys that only want to play with boys, and a few girls who strongly identify with boys, and they're going to be into whatever the other boys are into ("masculine"). There are girls who only want to play with girls, and a few boys who strongly identify as girls, and they do what the other girls are doing ("feminine"). On a continuum, there will be children in the middle, who may prefer to identify with people like themselves ("middles"), or with feminine, masculine, and middles or a combination thereof, or with no one. Wherever a culture draws the line (or if a line is drawn at all) is fairly arbitrary.

As for sexual/romantic orientation, you can be attracted to people more like yourself (whether that is masculine, feminine, or middle), or to people who are different than yourself, or you can be into both people like and unlike oneself, or into no one at all. Does that make any sense? Whatever labels you use, everyone wants to find a partner that meets their definition.

 

I might get crap for saying this, especially since I identify as a non-binary gender, but a lot of them seem to be essentially the same thing as another, or so close that it almost seems like they're basically over semantics. There's a lot of overlap, that's for sure, and even I think a couple could apply to me - one of the reason I choose to simply call myself genderqueer.

Chip, you have a bit of a history of discrediting any sexuality that isn't 100% gay or straight, basically, and I hope you're not one of those gay men who believes transgenders are simply gay people afraid to come out and live as such. Because that's one of the most absurd arguments ever put forth, as if murders, suicides, and being denied basic human rights serve as incentives to transition.

It does seem a never-ending battle between a very human need to categorize the world around us and to want to belong somewhere, but at the same time, labels can become limiting, and especially when other groups begin questioning and policing others who don't conform to their ideals.

I don't "feel" male or female, and it's not just about roles or stereotypes for me. It's more like a visceral desire, or feeling wrong when expected to fit into roles and boxes. Far from special snowflake syndrome, it's more of a frustration with our culture's limited understanding of gender, and the rigid lines that separate us. I feel if I had been born in another place and time, there would have been far less tension with society.

 

I agree with this. This is what I was trying to go for in my post, but I could not really come up with the right words for it.

For informed consent, there are screening methods in place. It's not like you just go in and get hormones and go. Many places have therapists on-site that you can see and talk about the changes that you will go through and so on. In my case, I had a letter from my therapist sent to the clinic, so I was given the script for T after my first appointment. Even with extensive therapy, there is no guarantee that somebody will not de-transition later.

The problem with the current system is that many therapist will "hold out" on letters until RLE (real life experience) has been completed. There are many people that are in areas that this is not possible, so these people become caught in the system. There are also people that are in areas where there are no gender therapists. To be honest, I think that the informed consent route picks up on many of the failures of the other route. As sad as it is, there are a lot of therapists out there that have unrealistic demands for their clients to get their letters to start on hormones. That, or they are really expensive and people cannot afford them. I was lucky to have a gender therapist on my school campus, but most schools do not have that.

So, the problem is that the other route is broken, and results in a ton of dead ends. In a perfect world, what you are describing would work. Right now, the informed consent route is one of the best options for transgender people.

 

Exactly: the informed consent model provides an alternative to a model that -- for many people and in many places -- is horribly broken. (Of course, it's also often not available in exactly the same places where the gatekeeper model is broken the worst.)

Notably, "informed consent" does not equate to "anything you think you want, no questions asked." It requires healthcare providers to satisfy themselves that the recipient of their care is capable of giving consent and is adequately well-informed, both about the risks and effects of the treatment requested and about the reasons for seeking the treatment in the first place.

As someone who is currently ass-deep in the swamp of trying to begin a course of treatment, maybe I'm biased and unobjective, but I have to say that the rank paternalism of the "we know better than you, so please jump through seven more hoops to prove that you're truly worthy and not just going through a phase" model is pretty bloody infuriating -- and pretty damn broken.

 

Well, I know my answer isn't popular but no, it isn't in ones head. Gender isn't made up and nonexistent outside of society. Gender when used for things, sure. Toys, clothes, colors - placing a gender on them is arbitrary. Biological creatures however? You kinda need hormones for that.

Sexual dimorphism occurs in many plants, animals and insects. Humans included. Secondary sex characteristics are usually driven by hormones. Some evolve through social pressure and thus selective breeding but the differences are there to begin with. Male deer didn't sprout antlers because females thought it would make them look better - the males always had antlers, they just got bigger and more ornate because that's what the females preferred. Usually because it showed that the males with the biggest antlers were survivors and healthy.

Figures I can't find the article now, but there is evidence that supports some forms of gender dysphoria happen because the brain is given heavy doses of one hormone over the other, but the body doesn't follow. A lot of people would probably take offense to suggesting that being transgender is a birth defect... but I mean technically, so is being a twin. I think birth defect is better than mental disorder -shrug-

Where was I going with this? In regards to other genders, I don't know. I don't want to invalidate anyone or police peoples feelings. I do think the brain is capable of being male, female, both or neither. When you get into others it starts to become more complicated than it needs to be, imo.

I agree too with elover and also to some things Chip has said.