Are there only two genders?

Male and female to most means penis or vagina. But then they give you a role to that gential stating penis has less emotions (testosterone) and vagina have more emotions (estrogen). They might as well just call us penis or vagina. Not male or female. But both female and males of their gender or hormones can express themselves as either male or female regardless of what their genitals are. Even if it's just slightly. When you see at birth male with a female range voice that looks male but stayed in female range when talking, everyone looks at him strangly. This is the barrier of just male or female that needs changing to stop discrimination due to roles set by this. And because people hate change that disrupts their life style or how they know or learned as children from their parents, peers,teacher or government/country will cause a revaluation at some point. And reason science and study is needed. Till then we got more genders/roles and why woman that will keep seeking change from just being a house wife and males just being a hard worker for wife and kids. That is also what helped speed up gender role issues.
people will always try to fit in with how they feel they are inside them in some way with only two labels.

 

Yes. And oftentimes people who say that nonbinary folk are just playing around or making up their gender do so because their claim or point of proof is that they don't experience dysphoria. I am nonbinary and I experience dysphoria that has left me suicidal at times just the same as any other binary trans person, I just don't desire a deeper voice or a dick. And in fact, there are even some binary trans folk who do not experience dysphoria, or simply if they do it isn't painful enough for them to become depressed or severely disabled by it, but eventually know in their hearts that they need to transition to be themselves, or some even learn to live dual lives in stealth and that simply is enough for them. There are trans people who went the majority of their lives feeling just okay with themselves and so they never thought to question that they might be trans, just as there are nonbinary people who are the same way or may only have mild dysphoria. Although many of us suffer due to our dysphoria, to say that someone's transness is only validated by how much we suffer is very belittling and self-deprecating as well; it's the same as saying someone's depression only matters if they went through a traumatic incident or something like that, or saying that someone who is suicidal and incapable of work has "real depression" versus a person who just occasionally can't do their homework or goto work.

 

There are only 2 genders.

 

I used to think there were legit more than two genders. However, in order for something to be considered a gender, it needs to have at least as many differences and unique features the other (two) genders have so as to be able to stand alone as a gender. Intersex would be the one thing I'd be willing to consider a separate gender.

It's important to differentiate GENDER from PERSONALITY. If your personality is really different from the typical personality of a person identifying with your assigned-at-birth sex, it's still not enough to call yourself a different gender. Unless you experience actual gender dysphoria and/or want to transition to the other gender, what you are going through is simply being different.

Identifying as "gender fluid", "bigender", "agender" or "demi-something" I feel is a way of describing your gender non conforming personality. Which is totally fine. However, having this written on your ID or having people call you made up pronouns is wrong from an objective standpoint. It's called being a special snowflake.

 

And.....

 

.....that's life.

 

Till you are called gay for acting different than what you look like and can't define yourself male or female..... Then ask yourself why there has to be two genders. We did make the word up male and female and yet can't make more words for it or define it? Our non-religious people thinking bible terms In thinking or do they naturally think this way? Is male and female not a personalized word for how we act with one another? Makes me wonder how the world will label each other when we no longer have to mate to have children and parents choose their sex before birth and these issues still arrive. Heck maybe we won't be born with genitals or have no sex hormones and be super tall as hormones won't affect our height anymore with none. Just leads to more questions..

Sometimes I think I'm not human and life is a big joke if you think differently.. :icon_sad:

---------- Post added 13th Apr 2017 at 12:55 PM ----------

Hmm. Life don't change then..

 

This is an interesting question. It wasn't a thing when i was in highschool, not really, so its all new to me. It does beg the question, though...how do you define sex and gender? These gender specialists, what are their educational backgrounds, what sort of research have they done? What are they basing their statement that there are more than two genders on. And if their background, education, etc is solid and reliable...do they not know anything more than 'there are more than two genders'? Is gender connected at all to society's gender roles?The LGBT community seems to have created a whole lot of gender labels since my teenage years but it doesn't seem like any of this can be agreed upon even within the community.

What i'm trying to get at are my couple core questions: How are gender and sex defined? Is gender something concrete that you can feel and figure out, like your sexuality? I never had the opportunity to question my sexuality until i was an adult, a young adult. But reading all of this makes me wonder if i was younger, would i too question my gender. Which brings me to my biggest concern - how is gender defined, what do these experts know and what are their backgrounds, and how much is one's perception of their own gender identity connected to society's gender roles.

 

Yes. And they need to be answered

 

No, it isn't. Male and female are biological constructs related more to genitalia and physiology than behavior.

The female lion hunts for food while the male penguin takes care of the eggs. Genders aren't a social construct, STEREOTYPES are. If we break down stereotypes, everybody can act the way they want without being judged by literally every other person.

By making up more genders, you annoy the people who strive for simplicity, corroborate claims that LGBT people are delusional and downright offend a bunch of scientists.

I think it's much easier and more productive to educate people that it doesn't matter what you have in your pants as long as you're a good person and mind your own business.

So, join us in the fight to demolish stereotypes, and stop hiding behind a meaningless gender.

 

Gender is apart of your personality. What if I went up to a binary trans woman and said "oh no, but you just liking dresses and wearing makeup and speaking softly and acting feminine is just your personality, it doesn't mean you're a girl." Because that's missing the freaking point. For some people, yes that would just be their personality and not mean anything about their gender, but for trans people it does, and that's exactly what differentiates us from cross dressers and someone who just likes androgynous clothing. They don't always have to be congruent but sometimes they are. Because some binary trans people know that the reason they want to be apart of those roles is because they feel that disconnect in their brain. You act as though there's no reason I desire to have a male name and pronouns despite not wanting a dick or a deeper voice and not caring about how gender roles define me, as though being diagnosed with gender dysphoria means absolutely nothing just because I don't desire anything from either men or women. Secondly, you'll notice how the part I highlighted in your text is basically the exact argument that psychologists used against binary trans people for years. "People who are born men shouldn't think they're a woman just because they have a feminine personality" etc. ...

---------- Post added 13th Apr 2017 at 04:10 PM ----------

Firstly, if you knew anything about biology or any kind of science field you would know that nothing is ever 100% true in any case or position. Talk to any doctor, biologist, chemist, etc. and they will always tell you that there are strong correlations or multiple potential factors between certain causes or conditions or thought processes, but they will very rarely tell you that anything is absolutely 100% certain every given time and with every given variable.

Secondly, it's extremely hypocritical to say that people should be focusing on someone's personality through the argument of "who cares what's in your pants" than "hiding behind a meaningless gender".
Do you know what many people have been saying to binary trans people for years?
"Why do you keep obsessing over how meaningless being a man or a woman is and just choose to be a crossdresser / not care what people think about you just because you're a "little bit feminine" / well how can you be a man when as a child you liked to wear dresses? / why would you be a gay trans man when you could just be a straight female?" Etc. etc. ...
it's exactly the same because it just misses the point entirely.

---------- Post added 13th Apr 2017 at 04:17 PM ----------

I'd recommend this book, as it is by an active gender therapist who has created her own repertoire that she recreated for her patients that also recognizes nonbinary gender:

https://www.amazon.com/You-Your-Gender-Identity-Discovery/dp/0997455217

 

Not gonna lie, but you sounded a bit heated there, especially when you said "hiding behind a meaningless gender". Please phrase things in a more respectful manner here, its supposed to be a safe space. You can have your opinion, that's fine, just be a bit kinder about expressing it. You can disagree with people and have a respectful, well thought out discussion without resorting to insulting or demeaning people and their opinions. Be kind, don't judge, and be open minded, that's what growing up hiding from my own sexuality taught me.

Yes we need to fight GENDER ROLES. Women over the past century have had success in this - girls can play sports, hold a wide variety of jobs, etc. instead of just stay home and cook and clean. Men are still expected to take care of the family. Children are even subject to them - girls play with dolls, boys play with cars, girls like pink and princesses and its marketed to them whereas with boy its blue and cars and such. I attempted a psychology major but i never finished it, so my opinion barely counts...but with children, they're just learning through play and should be allowed to play with whatever they like, that is my opinion.

Heteronormativity is also a problem, an even bigger problem really. Ever since i figured out i was gay i've tried to fight it. It never got brought up but around valentines day i thought up how to ask if they were doing anything for valentines day or if they had anybody without being gender specific about it, and how in regular conversation could i inquire about somebody dating without being gender specific.

---------- Post added 13th Apr 2017 at 03:22 PM ----------

 

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread and a lack of defining terms.

Because there is both the medical aspect of things, as well as a political, it's causing people to define what they think is right and treat it as an objective fact.
The only objective facts is what we have from biology, which says there are 2, in the issues of being trans or intersex it's a maligned shift of the two, it's a birth/mental issue.

Many are rushing towards a postmodern view of society, in which truth or fact is objective in place of feeling and sensation. If people believe that gender itself is a social construct, then any terms definitions or labels themselves are constructs, which makes them subjective, which makes them ultimately arbitrary.

If I don't think demiboy or dragonkin exist but another does, it's their right politically speaking but that does not make it fact. Just because one person's brain may have traits of either gender, does not make it a new gender or a person less of a person. There are many that are indifferent or even loathsome to their gender but they are what they are, and the biology does not change no matter how much a person wants it or tries to transition.

The only reason why society could accept a transsexual person is because it is a defect from the objective biological norm and as such is no different from other birth issues; it's backed up by some supporting science. This is why there is gender 'dysphoria' and 'phantom' limb sensation in trans people; it's the brain wiring arguing with the mind whether it's wanted or realized. Most people that are trans do not want to be trans because it is a debilitating mental condition that can tear apart lives and homes.

When you turn it into a political issue, you lose all ground except the ground you try to create or force others into.

We do not see tertiary sex characteristics in people, we do not see concrete evidence to support extraneous genders or lack thereof. Any identity is at best a way to describe a person's sensation or lack thereof between the two but it's all mental, and people deal with it differently.

 

Just because people are "calling me out" on violating the code of conduct, doesn't mean I'm actually doing it. If you choose to interpret my words as spiteful, that's your own choice.

Also, I don't really see how I am being hypocritical anywhere. What I do is not encourage people to push for the implementation of 10 genders, but rather to fight gender roles and stereotypes.

The fact that there are two genders DOES include trans people. They are the ones who fall into the 'dysphoria' category. Trans people are very much so binary, which means I am not contradicting my own point whatsoever.

There's a very simple logic that can just as simply be followed:
1) Were you assigned at birth as male or female?
2) Do you feel dysphoria as far as your genitals and sex-determined appearance is concerned?
3) If yes, you can choose to start transitioning. If no, your gender is the one you were assigned at birth with.
4) Do you still feel you don't fit in the male/female label? Then you're probably still struggling with heteronormativity and gender norms.

In my opinion, gender is not part of your personality. I can be feminine and identify as male at the same time.

All I'm saying is that by creating more genders, you only push for division, and accept that we are intrinsically very much so different and need to be strictly categorized, which I believe is hardly the case.

If saying you're non-binary makes you happy, then by all means do that. But however, do not expect people to use non existing pronouns to address you, as pronouns are THE BIGGEST social constructs in the whole gender debate.

 

You can never assumes someone sex in congruence to their gender, period. For example, FTM simply means "female to male". In most cases, someone who was assigned female at birth probably does have "female" genitalia, XX chromosomes, vagina, etc. but there are cases such as in intersex people where this is not true and there are many more variations, and actually can be prevalent in as many as 1 in 1500 people (and that term is even just for genitalia sake. Many people go most of their lives without knowing they have a genetic / chromosomal defect, in fact sometimes Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome which is very common in women is caused due to potential intersex hormonal and chromosomal makeup).

The term "demiboy" simply means "someone who only partially identifies with the male gender" (as demigirl would mean partiallay-female) so you may think of it as a subsect of agender. For me personally, I use this to mean that although I don't really heavily identify as male or female, at the end of the day I would much prefer to be referred to as a boy than a girl, seeing as those are really my only two public options available, because the connotations surrounding "boys" just happen to fit better than the only other options available, which are for girls. Also, for me personally I was assigned female at birth and could be considered biologically a "typical female", but this isn't the case for all demiboys. For example, when I was first coming out to myself about 2-3 years ago I moreso felt "demigirl" worked because I was used to being referred to as a girl.

As for transition, just like with binary trans individuals, there's no prerequisite for what you desire. I know other agender and nonbinary individuals who did go on hormones, bind, pack, wear breast forms, or who did desire certain surgeries despite still not identifying fully as one or the other. I know some AFAB nonbinary individuals who did choose to have top surgery, but have not taken hormones so despite being a little androgynous, still "sound like a woman" to the public. It's all just a matter of the person and what they need or enjoy.

---------- Post added 13th Apr 2017 at 05:40 PM ----------

Firstly, You speak as though you are trying to take on a neutral middle ground that is logic based, however there's some clear condescending voice here; replace demiboy with literally any other gender and compare it to someone who thinks they are spiritually a dragon and there's definitely a negative or absurd connotation intended.

Not all trans people experience phantom limb or dissociative sensations as a type a gender dysphoria, it is merely a single example, just as not all people with depression have been suicidal before. "Dysphoria", although a medical diagnosis, is simply a word that means "distress", which encompasses a broad set of criteria that are not just limited to what one individuals views are on "what really counts" as being true or not. For a comparative example yet again, not all depression is due to chemical dysfunction in the brain. Some is due to abuse and environmental factors. Cognitive therapy may help, but it will not reverse a person's views on who they truly are as an individual, it won't reverse that the abuse happened somehow and shaped them forever.

---------- Post added 13th Apr 2017 at 05:46 PM ----------

If this were true, then it would be pointless for all trans people, binary or not, to transition at all. Because it wouldn't matter to them one way or the other.

 

It's not a condescending tone, I'm just speaking objectively. I mean I'm not trying to be polarizing one way or the other, so it would be a benefit if indeed I could remain on a neutral ground that is logic based. Being logic based is a good and desiring thing.

If it's not quantitative, that makes it into a pseudo-science, and as such at best is a politically argued issue on which there is little objective reasoning.

Psychology itself is also pseudo and is one reason why many Atheists (for example) reject psychology or psychological evidence because it's non-quantitative. From psychology we understand free will exists and is a necessity, but according to science it's not proven (Atheist science leans more to say it is dis-proven or 'an illusion').

This is why I said people have to dissociate from the medical and the political. There are those that believe gender can be a spiritual issue or purely natural, or both. Where then do we argue and make a case? If I say it's a body issue and that's why there is dysphoria at times joined by phantom sensations, but then another argues it's spiritual and the body is otherwise whole so it's not susceptible to such things; we are now going to a deeper level of argument that becomes much more polarizing that simply gender view, but now worldview faith and belief.

Another example is with how you mentioned depression. Depression can both be a chemical imbalance in which medications help to fix it, or a spiritual imbalance in which medications will be useless, but counselling and stigma may be beneficial. How can I argue the spiritual aspect to someone that does not believe it? At best we can plainly argue the biological and then postulate or find evidences outside of that.

I was speaking strictly biologically, not meta-physically.

 

Well as someone who is going into a psychology field, I would have to sorely disagree with you. Just because something is not quantitative does not mean it has no value or essence to it. In fact, I see humans for what they are, which are animals that experience emotional and irrational reactions to most things because of chemical reactions in our brains or prior environmental stressors that permanently change the neuropathways in our brains and bodies. Some are changeable, and some aren't, though it's highly polarizing to say that it is irrelevant simply because we are not socially capable of running scans and tests on every single individual on this planet in search of common factors, correlations, and chemical base-level differences compared to the infinitely many memories, life events, interactions, and stressors that effect every individual. There are infinitely many ways that one animals reaction can change based on when they are effected, how, where, by what people, their mental health or mood at the time, as well as how they are genetically predisposed to react to certain stimuli, or the chemical makeup of their bodies and brains, as well as current immune system levels, hormonal makeup, etc. etc. But to dismiss the entire nature of what we are simply because it is not fully capable of being relayed in 100% certainty is also to exclude much of science itself, as the scientific facts that we have today are only really extremely high-chance correlations between variations of factors that we have chosen to test over time, and had someone deemed those irrelevant at the time, then we would not be where we are today. To continue off of my previous example, had individuals with depression perhaps not decided to trust the instincts of their reactions, congregated, and relayed correlations to one another about their shared condition before going to doctors with newly advancing technology and the doctors having then discovered from their shared experiences that there was a mental correlation- be it chemical or not- (depression can be caused from anything from vitamin deficencies, to trauma, hormone imbalances, thyroid disorders, allergies even, serotonin imbalances, auto-immune or chronic pain disorders, poor sleep schedule, abuse, etc.) then perhaps mental illness would still be in the Stone Age today where we just locked up "crazy" people in solitary rooms for not being the "right type of human". Also, quantitative is more relative than you may like to admit, because it depends highly on what data and variables you prioritize quantifying versus not, and logical facts are nothing more than many many correlations that came to similar or near identical results with similar variables via different people over a span of time.

 

You're assuming a lot and missing the point of what I was saying.

I never said psychology doesn't have it's place, but when a person tries to speak dogmatically about an issue they presuppose that something is objective fact, and psychology is not in the business of that since while it can be useful it's also non-quantitative.

If you are saying that we are all animals, you presuppose a type of faith/belief/worldview, which can both accept a naturalistic viewpoint or a spiritual. I do not share your worldview or presuppositions, so fundamentally speaking our opinions will be very divided.

This is why I said at the very beginning it is important for people to define the terms, and to understand the difference between that which is medical and that which is political.

I don't have much to re-iterate, but I'll say that I had trouble making connections to the correlations you postulated. I'd appreciate it if you could divide your syntax into paragraphs for easier reading, but regardless thank you.

 

Eh. My brain hurts. Where's my brain/body swap? Lol

 

So having browsed around through this thread I'm seeing two camps sort of emerging on this issue.

One side seems to believe that gender is merely a social construct and therefore gender identity is just an unnecessary addition to that construct. This camp believes that we need to break away from placing any expectations on gender to begin with rather than creating entirely new genders to add to an already existing construct.

The other side views gender as something inherent within people and something more than just a social construct. This side of the fence seems to believe that new genders have always been around and are just now being properly labeled. This side also believes its important to acknowledge these new genders and to understand them.

I personally fall into the former camp. I view gender as something that's imposed on us by society. It wouldn't matter what pronoun I used on anyone if what pronoun didn't have a thousand expectations attached to it.

To the point someone brought up about Trans people though...my understanding of the trans issue is that it's people who feel disconnected physically from their biological sex. It's not an issue of just preferring one set of pronouns over another, but rather a desire to completely change your physical form to as closely match the opposite sex as possible. Some people might go full on with the surgery while others just bind or crossdress, but the desire is consistent.

---------- Post added 13th Apr 2017 at 06:17 PM ----------

I'd have to disagree with you here. Biologically speaking we are in fact animals. We're the most intelligent animal that we know of, but we're still an animal. That's not really a matter of opinion.