Are there different "types" of gayness?

I find it interesting that you go "straight" to the most extreme displays of public gay sex to make your point...I would consider the use of "frequently" in this context with some trepidation; this is hardly frequent, as in, quite the opposite! If you are seeing this frequently, and I assume you are talking about what happens at the Folsom Street Fair in SF (for example) then this suggests that perhaps you may be a "frequent" visitor to such events!

You do mention that traditional coupling seems to be more predominant among straights, and, well, yes, of course! But even among the general (hetero) population, there are definitely explorations on new ways to live in relationships; this is hardly unique to the LGBTQ community.

As for the possibility of homosexuality as (merely? just?) a fetish, this is quite an interesting point of view; often espoused by those who are questioning or hesitant to draw certain conclusions about their sexuality (I certainly fell into that category before coming out to myself: oh, I said to myself, this is nothing more than a fantasy, pay no attention to the man enjoying himself down below).

I have explored, to some extent, this dark underbelly of sexuality, and I have learned about quite a few things in the realms of fetish and other "paraphilias", yet, curiously, homosexuality is hardly mentioned in that context. There may indeed be scenarios where heterosexuals do experiment with the same sex, but, this experimentation seems to lack the criteria for calling it a fetish, or even a fantasy.

Seeing oneself as gay is the crux of the matter, is it not? If you have this image in your mind of what being gay is all about, public sex and all, then, well, yes, of course, you (and I both) would have misgivings...perhaps it is time for an overhaul of that image?

 

I think there are as many types of "gayness" as there are people who are gay actually. We are all individuals. You will not find another gay man in the whole world who is quite like me and I wouldn't want you to either.

I think we should push back very strongly against the pigeon holing and characterisation of gay men. As far as I am concerned gay men share only one thing in common - attraction to other men. How we express and live out our sexuality is a very personal matter for each of us and that's how it should be.

 

Do you? Frequently??

I must be leading a very sheltered life then, because I haven't seen this frequently... even in the most liberal and progressive areas.

Again, this sort of pigeon holing of gay men as promiscuous and sex obsessed is something we should take great issue with. It might be the reality for some gay men, but most of us have other things to do.

 

It's not exactly what you're talking about, but I recently watched a really beautiful TED Talk by
iO Tillett Wright on "Fifty Shades of Gay." She's a photographer who has photographed thousands of people who identify as something other than straight. It's a fascinating project, so look it up if it interests you.

 

JustaguyinSF

I have been wrestling a bit with some of what you are saying. I think. As a bisexual, I feel I constantly have to explain my "non-gayness" or my "gayness lite" or whatever. I have attended some gay events in my area. They included a campout with a lot of group sex, guys in harnesses, slings hung from trees (you get the picture), gay pride, gay ski week with full on (or off) costumes. I also have had gay guys night out with some local guys. It was like being in an episode of "gay guys go to a bar sitcom". Very stereotypical.

But, that's not who I am. And, it doesn't matter. I like to have sex with guys. Not all types of sex and not with every guy. That doesn't mean that I am not really a bisexual. It doesn't mean that my sexual attraction to men is any less than my friend's who like to "be gay" if I can use that term.
Not wanting to wear a harness and a leather thong does not mean I don't intensely desire men. Not wanting anal sex (except to make my FWB happy) does not make me less attracted to men.

You don't have to check off the boxes and find it is only 3 out of 10 that are yes so you don't get to be gay. You only have to check one box and you are not straight. That is that you find men sexually attractive. And, you know what that means. We all do. You can feel it in your gut and you know it's true and it has nothing to do with what you want to do with your dick. It is the shape of a man's jaw, or the depth of his gaze, the shape of his ass, his stomach below his navel... Whatever gets you going...

You know what. It feels good to just want a man even if it isn't for some sexual act. That's gay enough...and, it's good.

 

Indeed, a place like San Francisco is quite unique in that regard. We have a much larger gay village here in Montreal and in it, there are saunas in which this kind of activity takes place (something that I understand is not available in SF). So yes, it happens, and on a regular basis in The Village, and elsewhere, however, this involves a small and particular segment of the gay population in this city, I have to state quite categorically that it is part, but not parcel, of being gay, both here and elsewhere...

 

I am clearly going to all the wrong places! I've been out and about and roundabout for a long time, been round the block more times than I generally care to admit--and I like to think in my time I've seen some stuff--but I've actually never seen either of these things. I did once see a couple have full on penetrative intercourse on a dancefloor in New York--but it never occurred to me to hold it against straight people in general (I mean you kind of had to admire how she worked that skirt--there were moments where you almost couldn't tell what they were doing). We will have to hit you up for some pointers the next time we're in San Francisco because we've never seen either thing in any of our trips there. Clearly we need to go wherever you go--I mean it's not really my cup of tea but if it's happening so frequently that someone could think it the norm, I feel kind of left out that I've never even seen it...

 

I get the sense that you are back in the bargaining phase, looking for ways to discount your own feelings as as fetish and to disassociate yourself from the community where some segments engage in behavior you do not approve of. There are other possible explanations why you have a hard time seeing yourself as gay, such as shame and internationalized homophobia...

I feel that your time would be spent more constructively by proactively creating a network of gay friends who are aligned with your values, rather than lamenting about what you see [occasionally to frequently] in your gayborhood. Perhaps that might require spending more time in other areas of San Francisco where these triggers are less common.

 

I concur with Siennafire, and suggesting, in addition to reflecting on the discussion here, you think fuether about internalized homophobia and/or shame and how that might be impeding your ability to progress on your journey towards self actualization.

While this discussion and the questioning your having in of itself may very well help you gain clarity to help you progress, which ever direction that takes you, consider thinking further about the root causes of the struggle you are experiencing.

 

Being at peace...yes, absolutely that is where we need to be; it is a fundamental requirement for living well within one's own skin.

It is really important to realize that no one in this community is an ambassador or a representative of "gaydom", or of those who identify as gay, The distribution of this sexual orientation is too vast and uniformly spread out to be contained inside of any one group, or of any one political or cultural affiliation.

What you perceive as a monolith is just that, a perception. What is most visible is not necessarily what is most representative. But, it is important to understand that vocal opposition to homophobia, the splashy and sometimes shocking Pride parades are reactions...in effect, effective weapons against the shame that has been for too long imposed on all of us; and self-imposed most of all...Pride is the opposite of shame, and "owning" certain characteristics that may be associated with being gay is a way to thumb our noses at oppression and prejudice. In a very real sense these activities contribute to the peace and dignity of living well within our own skins.

Every one of us who has crossed that bridge and affirmed a sexual orientation other than the norm has had to face the very same struggle. When I see the thousands of perfectly normal people marching in our Pride parades, what I see is the existential struggle that had to be undertaken by everyone there who identifies as LGBTQ. It is not just all sex and parties, it is also, for many, a lot of angst and fear, desire and disappointment, gains and losses...life and death. It is not all frivolity; there is a dark undertone to all of it.

I am a member of a lost generation. The number of gay men of my cohort is far lower than one would expect; such was the absolute (and continuing) devastation of HIV-AIDS. I know a guy around my age who lost 20 friends...Having myself arrived quite late to this "party", I acknowledge just how great a debt I owe; for the struggles they endured to give me the freedom to be myself, and even for the freedom to enjoy sex and a bit of frivolity...which is massively serious and important.

 

I've never understood gay people who don't understand what we have to be proud of. Even my Mormon, marine corps sergeant father got it. He once told me "Of course I'm proud of you and frankly I'm proud of whatever tiny part I had in making you who you are. Think about it, I raised a kid who when the whole world, unfortunately including myself, told him 'you aren't alright they way you are and you'll never be happy' stood up and said 'screw you--I'm fine the way I am and it's going to be awesome, just you wait and see' and then it was. What's not to be proud of?"

And yes, I think there is something genuinely to be proud of in defiance. It's true when I think about the gay community I think of parades and dancing, so much dancing, and of course endless brunch. But I also think of the Quilt (my husband made a block) and the angels that surrounded Mathew Shepard's funeral, I think of Angels in American and Love, Valor, Compassion. I think of those drag queens who blew kisses at the protestors at my second Pride Parade. I think of Marsha Johnson and Paul Monette, Harvey Milk and Larry Kramer, Edie Windsor and Audre Lord, Aaron Fricke and Urvashi Vaid. I think about Billy Jack Gaither and wonder if he was still alive when they burned him. I think of the hospice networks in the eighties in San Francisco and the Act Up die-ins. I think of the Trevor Project and the Mattachines.

I think of a community that has endured such profound grief and alienation, who have been subjected to such hatred, revulsion and violence and responded with grace and courage and integrity, with art and with a humanity so saturating as to be breathtaking. I think of a young me trying to kill myself my senior year in high school because nobody taught me how to imagine how to be me in this world and I think of the life I built on that rubble, a life I literally could not even imagine, let alone expect or even hope for. And I think of all those people out there who have woken up one day and decided that living a life of love and honesty is worth the risk, and if the world forsakes them and they lose everything, well they'll find new things. And I think of the fact that my life is filled with such people, people of such strength and courage, beautiful people full of joy and love... and defiance. And, yes, it makes me proud. Sometimes it even makes me feel like getting together with a million of my best friends and acquaintances and having a parade. And yes sometimes it makes me want to dance. And, well, I'm always up for brunch...

 

Wow! OGS, That’s incredibly inspirational!

 

JustaguyinSF

I, think, I am starting to understand how you feel. I've gone through sort of a process in figuring out where I "reside" in the gay community as a married bisexual. My situation is different than yours, of course, but the same sense that I don't, or really can't, belong to the "gay community" does exist.

When I first came out to my wife, the first thing I did was to attend Pride. Not just the parade. The picnic, the parties, the bike ride etc. Full immersion. Two weeks later I went to a gay campout (debauchery reigned...not judging). Then gay ski week. Then a hookup with a guy who introduced me to his network and numerous nights out partying like a gay guy. All this to try and engage the same sex part of my sexuality.

After a couple years, I'm worn down trying to be "gay". It never feels right. The gay men, my age, really don't accept me. Once I didn't leave my wife they pretty much stopped inviting me. My "gay" community opportunities are limited to guys in their twenties (I'm nearly 60), married men on the DL, or the rare other bisexual.

I don't blame the community. I get that. Some of the struggles that OGS mentioned I can't own. As a bisexual, I could hide out in my heterosexual world and for most of my life it didn't matter. It was different for my gay siblings. I am well aware of how difficult is was for them. So, when they, occasionally, celebrate their struggles with Pride or whatever, I know I cannot join them except as support and not a member.

You know. You don't have to be "gay". You can just be yourself. There are many of us who cannot accept all that being gay might socially imply. And, there is an element of exclusivity in the gay community. I understand why. But, we have to admit that it is there. I think when we first come out there is this celebration. "I'm gay now. I have people! Let's party!" But, it just doesn't work that way. After a year of trying to be "gay", I finally just gave up...it wasn't working.

Now, I'm learning to just be who I am. The celebration is over. I am meeting other men for intimacy and developing relationships that are built around what we both need and what works with my marriage. Yes, I am criticized by the mainstream "gay" community. But, I had to find my own place. My sexuality is mine. I'm finding what I need and it is good.

Justaguy. Take a good hard look at yourself, your desires, your needs. Do some exploration to learn what they are. Fail at it. Succeed at it. But, eventually, you will find your place and your peace. But, you can't not try for fear of failure. And, do not judge yourself by some standard of behavior that isn't you.

 

I can understand all the struggles that the gay community has endured over the years, but it's very hard for me to feel fully engaged in them. In some ways I feel like I don't entirely "get" gay pride because I don't know that I've ever really experienced the shame that comes up in thread after thread after thread. I was picked on constantly as a kid, and I still feel the vestiges of it, but it had nothing to do with being gay (or if it did, I never interpreted it that way). I remember being referred to with so much derision as a "brain" that to this day, I cringe when anyone talks about how smart I am. I was insulted and shamed so much for being overweight that if someone says even the slightest thing about my size, I am mortified and want to go hide somewhere. I have far more scars on my psyche about that than I will ever have about being gay, so I although I appreciate those who participated in Stonewall or who picketed or protested, I don't feel the same level of solidarity with them that others seem to.

My family all came to the US between 1900 and 1930. While I'd never consider myself anything but American, there are experiences that are part of US history that are not part of mine. When I read about the revolution, or the Civil War, I know they are part of the history of the US that I am also a part of, but they are not part of my personal history. I see the same sort of thing listening to people explain their affinity to the gay community. I will eventually marry my partner and can be affectionate to him in public and be accepted by my children thanks to the efforts of those who came before me, and I appreciate them, but I also don't feel that their efforts tie me to their community, any more than the sacrifices of my immigrant ancestors require me to learn to speak Slovak, or my being a US citizen requires me to participate in Civil War re-enactments. I am living my life, at this point in time, and I can appreciate the efforts of my predecessors, but they don't carry any requirements for how I live my life today.

Long story short, @justaguyinsf - As @Nickw said, be yourself, be who you are, and find your place. Being attracted to guys carries no responsibility for you to behave any particular way, be part of any community, carry any particular political beliefs, accept things you cannot accept, or make yourself acceptable to any group of people. I find that some of the most miserable people I know are the ones who sacrifice their identities to fit in somewhere. I did it myself for 20 years in a marriage; others do it in families or social situations or religions or whatever. Be yourself, don't label yourself and then feel you have to live up to the label somehow. You are your own kind of treasure. Be proud of that first and foremost.

 

And I think this gets to the crux of the issue. What do you think is feeding or fuelling that inner sense that your path lies elsewhere.