Are being gay and being homosexual the same thing?

I kind of see what you're trying to get at, but honestly... whether a man likes to be penetrated, or do the penetrating himself, or doesn't enjoy any kind of penetrative sex, has no bearing whatsoever on how feminine or masculine he is.

I mean, you can be a 6'4" bodybuilder who wrestles alligators for a living and still like to be on the receiving end of anal sex.

*edit* Do you mean you think there's some kind of genetic/hormonal/whatever difference between "straight-acting" gay men and camp gay men? Like there's some kind of predisposition to behave/look one way or the other..? Just trying to be clear.

 

So basically, you're associating "gay" with "stereotypical gay" and not "homosexual".

Gay means to like someone of the same sex. Homosexual means to like someone of the same sex. They're effectively the same thing.

I'll be the first to admit I do not identify with "stereotypical" gays and nor am I particularly attracted to them either. In that sense, like you, I identify a more with "straight" (i.e. masculine) guys.

Here's the issue: regardless whether you identify or not, being part of the greater LGBTQ umbrella, you will be stereotyped regardless. It's human nature to stereotype others. If you feel threatened by your stereotype (which you sound like you are), then you dissociate from your group... in this case, stereotypically feminine/flamboyant gay guys.

I get not feeling "the same" as stereotypical gay guys. However, I don't think abandoning your group by specifically dissociating them is productive for you, them, or even the general LGBTQ movement for equal rights. If we can't accept those who are in the same boat we are, how do we expect everyone else to do the same?

I don't like insinuating things on these forums because I'm a pretty strong believer in that I shouldn't tell other people what they're thinking. But to me, it sounds like you've got some internalized homophobia going on (i.e. that aversion and refusal to identify with the "gay" community). Just because it's a societally-constructed stereotype does not mean it can't be broken down either. Something worth thinking about.

 

There are theories that supposedly explain homosexuality, both nature-based and nurture-based. Of course, all theories are just correlation and do not explain causation.

What I don't understand is why you feel the need to dissociate yourself from "those gays". You know, those ones that "aren't like you". Are they innately worse or something? Because unless there's a social difference between the two groups, there shouldn't be any need to. And if there is a social difference, you might want to rethink whether there actually is one or not.

 

I'm not quite sure what the issue is....

Compared with other cultural stereotypes, I think the gay male stereotype is pretty great. I'm not effeminate myself, but I still identify 'gay'.

I love effeminate 'bears' (generally, not necessarily sexually) just for the fact they really show being masculine and effeminate is not so far apart, and how you're not necessarily one or the other.

As for the whole sub/dom thing, one is not more effeminate then the other. I'm more submissive then some of my effeminate friends.

 

Yes

 

Maybe instead of working to put people in tinier and tinier boxes, it might be better to simply dispel the gay stereotype by being masculine and gay.

 

Didn't really read through the thread, but I just don't understand why we spend so much time trying to label ourselves? Does it really matter in the end?

 

I agree with Hexagon's sentiments. I think he summed up what I was getting at in two sentences much better than I have in the last two posts.

The way to dispel stereotypes is to show stereotype disconfirming evidence. That said, if the stereotype is that gay guys are all feminine and flamboyant, being masculine and down-low (i.e. being yourself) is disproving the stereotype all on it's own. And that's a good thing.

So if being yourself is a good thing, I don't see why it's worth simply not identifying as gay since you don't fit the stereotype, rather than identifying as gay even though you don't fit the stereotype.

It's also an issue of what social group you identify with. Since you're choosing to not identify as gay, you're undergoing outgroup homogeneity - meaning that all members of the group you don't belong with (gay guys) are all the same (stereotypically feminine).

On the other hand, since I choose to identify as gay, I undergo ingroup heterogeneity - meaning that despite all members of the group having a common trait that makes them part of the group (liking guys), each person is an individual and doesn't necessarily fit the stereotypes (not necessarily feminine or flamboyant).

I'm taking a class on stereotypes right now, so that's probably why I find this thread so interesting.

 

I think it's a little odd to say that anyone who doesn't fit the stereotype of being gay isn't actually gay. Would you make the same argument with respect to a racial group? For instance, if a black person doesn't fit society's stereotype of being black, does that mean he isn't really black?

People notice the things that are different. Gay people who fit heterosexual stereotypes don't attract attention because people just assume we are straight. It's the gay people who don't match hetero stereotypes (effeminate gay men, butch women) who catch people's attention because they are "different." but there's a lot more to an iceberg than what you see at the surface.

I think it's far more useful to challenge the stereotype than it is to try to wall off people who fit it, both in terms of helping society realize we are not so different than anyone else and in making it easier for future generations to come out.

 

All Homosexuals are Gay, all Gays are Homosexual, it is places like Hollywood that have created the stereotype of a Homosexual Person, this stereotype depicts all Gay men as camp & feminine, it depicts Lesbians as Butch Women with short hair.

Now where as some people in the Gay Community do fit these stereotypes, it does not fit the Masculine Gay Guy or the Feminine gay Girl, if I was to say as a Masculine Homosexual Guy that I am not Gay, because I don't fit Hollywood's stereotype of a Gay Guy, then the Homophobic's have won, they then have the monopoly on the word Gay & can keep more people in the closet!

 

Reading through this thread I feel like I actually do understand these feelings. Kind of. Sort of. Probably not. But I'll continue.

Despite what we want to project, that the LGBTQ community at large is inclusive and wonderful and awesome, it is generally geared towards a very certain personality type within the community. Namely the fabulous gay man. And within this community catering for this specific group of individuals (as diverse as they are) you can find that if you do not adhere to the community expectations in terms of behaviour/mannerisms that you are viewed as being anything other than truly a gay man (or woman, for that matter).

While a few words in this thread are perhaps hitting nerves and detracting from the point, I get that general feeling of division. That feeling that despite all of this talk of inclusion and embracing who we are, there is division when it comes to various personalities and how they are viewed. At times it does seem that the community is inclusive, providing you fulfill certain criteria. You're told it should feel right, it should be you, it should be your community, but it doesn't feel right.

I've tried to participate in groups for lesbian/bisexual women, and honestly I feel out of place. I disassociate from those groups because I sit there and think that everything they speak of, their mannerisms, their way of being, it is not who I am. EC is, fortunately, different as it's online and there's a degree of anonymity, but offline... offline seems very, very different.

RAMBLE. I have no idea where I'm going with this.

 

Right, because you're trying to be stereotypically gay when that's not who you are. And that's totally cool. I'm not stereotypically gay either.

The difference between you and I is the fact that I still identify under the term "gay" because I feel I belong with these people (and by that I mean guys who like guys), whereas you're getting hung up on the idea that "gay" has to mean stereotypically feminine and flamboyant guys.

Here's another way of looking at it: You're seeing the groups as "stereotypically gay" and "not stereotypically gay (homosexual, as you called it)". I'm seeing the groups as "gay" (guys who like guys) and "not gay" (guys who don't like guys).

 

Your post really made me think. The terms homosexual and gay are completely synonymous in our modern world, aren't they? I don't think many of us stop to think "Wait a sec, maybe they're not exactly the same..." Thank you for opening my mind on this subject. I can relate to your concerns about not fulfilling the typical stereotype of your orientation. Since I came out to my mum as bi (but I might as well be a lesbian in her eyes) she is always saying to me "Gay women have short hair and dress like men..you're a beautiful, long-haired, feminine woman." It's so unfortunate that, even within our own community, there are a lot of people who don't quite buy your orientation if you don't fit the stereotype. Femme invisibility is still a big issue in the female bi and lesbian community, as I'm sure the invisibility of more masculine gay men is (apologies, I don't know if there is a term for masculine gay men). This is definitely a good subject to get out in the open and discuss.