It seems to me like lesbians are less widely-accepted than gay boys...?

Actually, it does. If those men only accept lesbians because of their sexual objectification, they are not seen as human. If they are not seen as human, they don't respect the partnership of two women. They are only seen as pieces of meet for their personal pleasure. I personally don't see how that is better. It has more to do with you not understanding how deeply imbedded rape culture is and how being treated like that often leads to other forms of sexual violence. Again, if you're thinking about who has it worse in the LGBT community, you're missing the point of why this community exists to begin with.

 

At least that objectification gets you a ton of visibility. There's many lesbian characters in tv and in movies, they get to kiss and actually have a sex life. There's barely any gay characters on tv right now, and the few that exist are portrayed as non-sexual, with censored kissing.

So I still stand by what I said, lesbians are DEFINITELY more accepted than gay men. You only need to see the amount of lesbian characters on tv, compared to the abysmal amount of gay characters to see that it's true.

 

Gosh, I really think it's totally the opposite. At least there are still tons of straight men finding you attractive lol. Gay guys are generally not accepted by straight women. This really make me feel sad. It costs so much more to be a guy dude.

 

But that's exactly the point, I didn't say that lesbians have it better than gay men, all I said was that there's a greater degree of acceptance of lesbian women than of gay men, even if that acceptance is for the wrong reasons. It's not the ideal situation obviously but it's pretty apparent that more people are "okay with" lesbianism than they are with gay men.

 

THIS! Straight women can actually be very judgmental. Yes, some women are very gay friendly, and that's great! But they're still in the minority imo. And don't even get me started about straight men.. they usually have nothing against lesbians, while gay men are "gross"

Thank you! You said what I was thinking. The thing is, lesbians ARE more accepted in society by large. I've literally seen straight men say they don't have any issue with lesbians, they loooove watching lesbians on tv, kissing and having sex. Yet they say that gays are "gross", and "shove their sexuality in my face". So again.. lesbians are definitely more accepted, even if it is for the wrong reasons, like sexual objectification. I'm not saying it's right.. it obviously isn't, but at least you're accepted. Gay men are not.

 

I certainly get that impression :/

 

Erm, are we saying that fetishization counts as a form of *acceptance*?? The fact many straight men are turned on by gay women goes to show how horribly objectified they are within our society. Gay women are sexualized, dehumanized, and trivialized by straight men; it's a sad day when this comes to be seen as "acceptance".

Also, on the other side of the coin, you're wrong if you believe that there aren't many, many straight girls out there that *love* gay males, and (to a far lesser degree) even fetishize them (I won't get in to this debate, but yaoi...nuff said). It's a small segment of society, and obviously not nearly as severe as the fetishization that takes place with gay women, but still, turning a group of people into a fetish is wrong, I believe, even if it occurs in a very, very mild teenage-girlish fantasy sorta way with gay boys.

---------- Post added 12th Oct 2013 at 01:09 AM ----------

Yeahh, exactly, in other words, this.

Gay men are, more or less, generally accepted for who they are, even if it causes them to be the source of vitriol from a patriarchal society that demonizes any sort of perceived "femininity" within men. However, gay women don't even receive the priviledge of being viewed for who they truly are, but instead are condemned to be seen as sex objects whose sole purpose is to satisfy and be swayed by men. This is why gay female identity is trivialized and invalidated, on a level that gay male identity is simply not.

I would personally prefer the former. Both are terrible, but the latter is so frustrating and dehumanizing. It's better to be hated for who you are than "loved" for who you're not, imho.

 

Completely disagree with everything you said. Gay men are hated on every day. Homophobes always bring up gay sex as "yuck", while they have nothing against lesbians, and gay men are more often than lesbians the victim of hate crimes. The physical violence against gay men by homophobic bigots is just unreal.

On the other hand you have lesbians, who are mostly left alone. Yes.. they can also face homophobia, but it's often less severe than what gay men are facing. IMO, if sexual objectification (which in all honesty, gets you visibility) is the worst thing about being a lesbian, then yes.. I still stand by what I said, gay women are definitely more accepted in society than gay men.

 

Yeah, I feel like this is true to a certain extent. It's almost like gay boys are glorified because all the girls out there think they're so cute and funny.

 

NOT TRUE. Lesbians are worshipped every day by straight guys. 99 % of all straight guys think lesbians are hot.

The women who think gays are "cute and hilarious", to quote Britney Spears, are in the minority. Most women still think gay sex is gross. The gay friendly, "hags", are in the minority.

Lesbians are more often featured on tv and in movies. There's less stigma showing lesbian love and sex. The visibility of lesbians is greater than for gay men.

There's definitely more acceptance for lesbians in the world, and I find it ridiculous that people can even think that gay men are more accepted, with all the stigma facing gay male sexuality every day.

Just look at sports.. of the top athletes, how many openly gay men do you know? Not exactly many, while there's hundreds of openly gay lesbians.

How many country in the world are lesbian sex illegal? Certainly fewer than for gay anal sex.

How many hate crimes target lesbian? Again, certainly fewer than against gay men.

So yep.. still stand by what I said. Lesbians are more accepted than gay men.

 

I think that even in relatively trivial terms it's really important not to focus too much on the concept of whether gay men or gay women are better received when the focus really needs to be working towards unquestioned acceptance of gay relationships.

I read some history in one of my feminist books and in a few articles about the history of 'feminist' lesbians who didn't want to let gay men in on their fight because they considered them to be 'men' and therefore part of the 'enemy'. This seems utterly ridiculous to me when the whole point of any social/political protest should be to achieve equality for everyone (hence the term equality! )

I think it's the job of absolutely everybody who supports equality in any form to be brave enough to promote it (i.e. white, gay men support black, lesbian feminists - mixed-race, straight, disabled women support white, able-bodied lesbian introverts - etc!) Too often the powers that be who'd like to keep everyone boxed and labelled encourage them to focus too much on other boxed and labelled groups rather than questioning the powers that be on their approach to equality.

(Can you tell I've got a side-line in politics? )

 

It really doesn't matter, cause it's not about who has it worse than the other, cause it's not a competition. The one thing I really wanted to touch on here was that the idea that because gay women are fetishized and sexualized in our society means they are *accepted*, is utterly ridiculous. It's degrading and dehumanizing and is a large part of the reason gay female identities are completely invalidated by a lot of mainstream society.

And also, I don't want you to think I am somehow trivializing the experiences gay males face. I'm just saying don't think what gay women deal with is any better, and I don't equate being fetishized with being accepted.

Regardless, sitting here bickering about who has it worse does absolutely no good and just creates divisiveness within the community.

 

This is what I've noticed too, but generally girls seem more accepting of either than guys are.

 

Lesbians seem to have less of a pervert attachment to them than gay men.

 

I feel like lesbians are more "accepted" but for the wrong reasons. To me, it seems like people don't accept gay as much because it's less "sexy" to think about than lesbians. However, I do feel like lesbians are not believed as much as gay guys. For example, some straight men like to think that it is completely possible to bed a lesbian. I've heard these people say that it would be a nice achievement. Like they'll get a medal for it or something. For me, I doubt the same man would agree that a woman could get a gay guy. I'm not sure why this is, but I'd be willing to bet its for the same reasons that lesbians are perceived as more "accepted/acceptable". From what I've seen, people seem to think this way. It's wrong, obviously. I'd have to say that for me, it seems lesbians are more accepted but less authentic to heteronormative people.

 

Sexual arousal DOES NOT EQUAL acceptance. Seriously, people. Stop it. Are you guys so overcome with your need to be the bigger victim that you're willing to throw lesbians completely under the bus to validate yourselves? Get over yourselves.

 

YES. Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to say in that other thread.

 

I really don't know "who has it worse" but I will say when I first came out to a girl at age 13 I was told "eww that's gross" and "get away from me" so uh yeah, lesbians do face issues. I have basically had crappy luck with women, because I can't tell who the hell is straight or not, and if they are straight they treat you like you're a freak.

Oh and I will add, straight men seem more tolerant to lesbians simply because they think that girls like girls just to impress them, as if the world revolves around their penis. Uh. Yeah. No.

 

"It seems to me like lesbians are less widely-accepted than gay boys...?"

I just answered the topic.

I also said that objectifying lesbians is wrong, but at least it gets you some visibility. Gay men doesn't have that option. There's a lot more stigma out there when it comes to male gay sexuality. And that's a fact. Yes, lesbians are discriminated against too, but it's not nearly as bad as it is for gay men.

I don't think you quite know what gay men are facing every day, which is why you think lesbians have it just as bad, which simply isn't the case. So yes, in a way I do think you are trivializing the homophobia and ignorance facing gay men and gay love. I backed up my views, why gay men has it worse, with facts. I don't see you doing the same to back up your view? Yes, lesbians are objectified.. and? How is that worse than gay men getting the death penalty for being gay, or being ridiculed in society, because gay men are just a joke, an gay sex is "yuck"? Why are there more openly lesbian athletes than gay athletes if lesbians have it so bad? Why are there more openly lesbian and bisexual women in entertainment is women has it so bad? Again.. lesbians actually being able to come out in sports, in Hollywood, I'm talking about famous women, is yet another case that lesbians, although facing some stigma, isn't nearly facing as much as gay men.

Again, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, because we will never see eye to eye about this.

 

I acknowledge that every one has their own difficulty within the community. However, I will say that I do think that some members are catered to more than others the least in our community. I think that gay men are catered to the most in the community and transgender people are pushed to the side the most. You wanted my honest opinion, well, there you have it.

To say that it's "easier" to be a lesbian because all these straight men don't take us seriously and want to rape us is way off mark, buddy. And I can tell you that every lesbian once in her life will probably have to deal with major sexual harrassment. Did your family pressure you to have sex to "cure" your hatred of the opposite gender when you came out? That' just one difficulty about being a lesbian that is overlooked. People keep pushing us back into the closet and try to force us to be sex toys for straight men. Do straight women ever try to attack you sexually and keep saying that they can "turn" you? If I do I'm honestly sorry but I don't think that's much of an issue for gay men as it is for lesbians.

Do all gay men get beat up? Nope. Do all lesbians get raped or beat up? No. There are definitely occasions of each though. It makes me sick to my stomach when I hear about the gay bashings don't get me wrong but you need to keep in mind what the proportions are. I do think that there is more media attention towards gay men and their troubles. Although there is a sizable amount of media attention for girls who experiment with other girls; this is completely different from lesbians.

I do acknowledge that it would be easier for me to just hold hands with another (femme) women than it would be for two men to in public. It really makes me sad to see that it's more difficult for two men to walk around in public and be holding hands without people responding. I understand that and I wish it was different.

I also would like to note the stereotype of gays versus lesbians. Lesbians are pictured as angry man-hating unattractive disgusting women. Gays are stereotyped as fashionable, friendly, fun, attractive and hip. ALL the straight women flock to them for friendship. As a lesbian, I definitely cannot say the same thing.

Women are from a very young age taught to suppress their sexuality. We still live in a male-dominated society which deems that women are to be kept virgins etc. . Don't believe me? the next time you see a prince princess movie note how the prince fights and competes for the princesses love and "earns" her like he would an object. Note how the woman's choice had little to do with who she ended up "falling" or "lusting" for. Women are generally taught that they cannot achieve bliss without a phallic object hence why lesbian sex "isn't real". Now, that can be very difficult then to realize that you are a lesbian. It can be even more difficult for people around you to believe you considering how pushed down female sexuality and particularly lesbianism is.

The amount of straight women who fool around with women is a pretty high amount. That might sound like a good thing, but in my opinion it just leads to heartbreak. It's then very difficult to sort out the ones who actually want you and the ones who want to use you then play heteronormative housewife the next day. Again, I'm not saying that all do this and I'm not saying that there aren't straight men who do this to gays, I'm just noting a trend here.

Also, there are way more gay clubs than lesbian clubs. How many lesbian clubs can you think of from the top of your head? This has a huge impact because it makes it harder to find mates if you are a lesbian. Then even if you do go to a lesbian bar you need to run away from the rare straight men and some swinger couples.

Are you aware of any major lesbian porn venues specifically FOR lesbians? No? All for straight men? That's what I thought. I'm happy that gay men have more resources in that regard but I still really wish that in general there were more lesbian-oriented bars, clubs, sites..what have you.

On the flip side, I do understand that gay men do tend to have to worry more for HIV for example than lesbians. I also realize that it's harder to have biological children if you are a gay man. So that I admit is difficult.

I can keep writing but I really don't feel like I should.

I will say that there have been a lot of cases of lesbians being gang-raped and tortured. In fact I recall reading about a fairly recent shooting of a 14 year old lesbian girl in Texas who was out holding her girlfriends hand in public.