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Will never break out of the cycle of denial.

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by Searching2022, Dec 5, 2022.

  1. Searching2022

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    Since coming to EmptyClosets I realize:
    • Despite longing and looking at women all the time, I have no sexual arousal.
    • I realized that in the past when having sex with women I either fantasized about a guy, just tried to 'get off' , was someone disgusted/turned off by it.
    • My desire for sex with a man has gotten incredibly intense.
    • My desire to receive anal intercourse from a man and give a blow job has gotten very intense.
    • I feel an urge and desire to date men like I never had with women.
    But most of the time I don't believe that I am gay.

    First, am I gay if I don't want to be most of the time? or is it something else. It seems like some part of me still thinks I am not gay.

    On another thread I read this:
    It sounds great but I don't know how to do it.
     
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  2. thatasher

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    I mean, you literally check all the boxes and then some…it sounds like romantically, you may be more bi, but your sexuality definitely leans gay from what you’ve written. Your romantic interests in women may also just be based on societal norms, and that may ease up as time goes by.

    That said, it’s 2022. Unless you live somewhere radically unaccepting, it’s okay to be gay. That seems to be the last hurdle in your journey. Accepting that being gay is actually a beautiful, wonderful way to love and to experience life. The shame will subside so quickly, but the regret of not being true to yourself will eat away at you year to year until you realized you’ve spent your whole life living a lie. Who wants that?

    I think the best way to break yourself out of this funk is to meet other gay people and see how shockingly normal it can be. Not even saying to date…just make friends and deprogram some of the toxic masculine stuff you grew up with. You’ll be way happier when you do.
     
  3. zgaynz

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    My sexuality revelation didn't happen overnight. It took years. I have a non-scientific stage based approach that I went through:

    Stage 1 - Realisation. This is when I suspected that I was gay. Realisation and accepting are not the same thing.
    Stage 2 - Denial. Even though I knew I was gay, I still denied it both publicly and internally. This stage is broken down in to a number of sub stages which cycle. They key for me was to break the cycle.
    Stage 2a - Rationalisation. Rationalise my desires as a mere curiosity and I'll grow out of it or get bored soon enough.
    Stage 2b - Suppression. I would suppress any waking homosexual desires I had. Flat out refused to give in to them but if I did, I would go back to Stage 2a.
    Stage 2c - Acting. Fake it till I make it. Worked on everyone bar myself because I knew it was just an act.
    Stage 3 - Discovery and Reflection. I went through a number of years of self discovery, exploration and reflection after experiencing an overwhelming desire to kiss a male friend, but I know I wanted more than that.
    Stage 4 - Partial acceptance. At first I accepted I was bisexual. I didn't want to let go of some form of heterosexuality but as the years went by, my heterosexual side dwindled because it was never really there in the first place.
    Stage 5 - Full acceptance. Finally accepting that I am gay and always have been. It was a massive relief. Accepting I was gay didn't mean I had to tell the world. The acceptance was about stopping all the internal conflict that it was causing and allow me to actually be me.
    Stage 6 - Regret. Regret that it took so long to happen.

    How did I break my cycle? I had a catalyst. The desire to be with a male friend was simply too strong to ignore. It does sound like you're stuck in my stage two. I had all those intense feelings for years but I would tell myself that I was straight. Did I ever believe it? Some days yes, some days no. I just hope you find a way to break your cycle. Something will click which will allow you to move forward. It's not easy to undo all that internal conflict and homophobia (gay is something other people are, not I etc.) so I definitely sympathise with your plight.

    My stage three included a lot of reflection through writing. I asked myself a lot of hard/difficult questions, which I answered truthfully at the point of time. I updated these answers should they change (and they did). There was no point lying because I knew I was. I also looked back over my life and recorded all the signs that I was gay. There were many, more than I ever realised. Individually they were innocuous but put together, damning. Without this internal reflection I doubt I could've moved to the acceptance stages.

    I also kept a dairy (still do) of my thoughts and desires over my journey and I also did all the sexuality tests. All gave me similar homosexual results. Finally, looking in the mirror and saying "I am gay" a few times out loud actually worked wonders. No one else has to hear you say it. I found that watching and hearing myself say it meant I couldn't take it back. It was now out in the open rather than just in my head. I hope any of this helps you.
     
  4. BiGemini87

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    I can't tell you with absolute certainty, but it does sound to me like you are gay, and this is (as Chip said) part of the bargaining stage--likely denial, as well. The stages of grief are something we seldom go through in a linear fashion, and most often are circular in nature: you can find yourself revisiting certain stages again and again, while completely bypassing others.

    Is there a chance you're bi, and currently undergoing the period in which the backlog of repressed attraction/feelings to the same sex has eclipsed those for the opposite? Sure; it happens to a lot of bisexuals who come out later in life. But straight? That seems unlikely. Whether you want to be gay or not is irrelevant to the equation: what category you fit into relies entirely on your attraction(s). It's okay if you don't know which label fits, or would rather avoid one altogether. It's okay if you need to take time to work through these conflicting feelings--work through them at your own pace, and with as much compassion for yourself as you can.

    It might take some time, but acceptance will come, so long as you work towards it. So it might be worth considering why you sometimes believe you aren't gay. Does this stem from fear, shame, disgust, etc? Or is it because you're still trying to determine if women still factor into your dating pool? Reflect on what might be holding you back/getting in the way of you accepting that you're not straight; try to determine where it started, if it's something others have expressed around you, or the messages you've received from the various forms of media we use. If you can trace it back to a certain event (or series of events), it should help you overcome these feelings.
     
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  5. Searching2022

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    Yet, part of me doesn't think it's true!

    I do get a warm beautiful feeling when I read this and thought about applying it to me.

    It sounds weird but this scares me because I know that i will go through an incredible transformation.

    One 'fantasy' I have is meeting a guy I love so much that I just completely drop this facade, but I can't never believe I am gay long enough to take that step.
     
  6. Searching2022

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    Yes. But I don't believe I am when I am am, when I am in what I would now call 'denial' I would say this 'gay' 'me' is just fantasizing.
    I just don't have any strong catalyst like that for change.
    I often feel that way or say it when I am sexually fantasizing but after it 'goes away'
     
  7. Searching2022

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    I don't know what you would call it, but in the 'real world' I look at women and I find them attractive, and express some desire to touch them sexually (though I don't get aroused in public) at home fantasizing, my fantasies are always about men. But I don't really experience that in IRL.
     
  8. zgaynz

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    Rationalisation. I lived that for many years. I used every excuse from boredom to curiosity to just a fantasy to tell myself I wasn't gay when my homosexual desires got the better of me. I would always say that this is the last time but it never was and I knew it wouldn't be when I said/thought that. Do you have homosexual dreams at all?

    For me, this was a good indication as while I could somewhat control my conscious thoughts, there was no way I could control my subconscious. I have experienced both heterosexual and homosexual dreams throughout my life but the majority (by a very considerable margin) have been homosexual and my body reacted in approval. In fact, since I have come to accept my sexuality, I've not had a single heterosexual dream.

    I too felt, or thought I felt attraction to women but the desire to be with them was never truly there and I now believe that any effort on my part was just to be seen as "normal" and throw doubters off the scent. I grew up in a time where homosexuality was very frowned upon. I not only feared being gay, I was very much ashamed for even having thoughts that I could be gay and it took me many years to undo all the damage society, family and friends had unwittingly inflicted on my conscious so that I could accept myself. I couldn't move forward until I did.

    I would think that you as keep coming back to homosexuality and the fact that you recognise that you're stuck in a pattern, means there is something there but only you can ultimately decide your sexuality. I've had people tell me that I was gay when I was going through what you are now going through and it just made me dig my heels in further and deny it, even though I knew they were right. It's a conclusion you need to come to on your own.

    Being gay is every bit as beautiful as being straight or any other sexuality for that matter and accepting your sexuality doesn't mean you have to tell anyone. It's about inner peace. It's about not letting others dictate who you should or should not be. We cannot help who we are attracted too.

    Your desires in your original post do indicate some change as you've indicated that they have become stronger, more intense and your desire to be with women is dwindling. My catalyst sped up my acceptance process (that's what they're designed for) but it would've happened regardless. A catalyst speeds up the reaction, it doesn't start it. Time may be your catalyst.

    For me, and I can only speak from my experience. The feeling did go away, it was replaced with shame and guilt for enjoying who I am but it always returned, often stronger than before. Is this the same for you? Who we fantasize about, waking or not, generally is a strong indicator.
     
  9. Searching2022

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    No, I don't have sexual dreams at all really.

    I can't really tell if it is real. I see beautiful women or a woman with a nice body I get excited but that's in public, at home I fantasize

    I wish my other 'me' would recognize that, but it doesn't.

    I don't fantasize about women at all - maybe once every six months or something and it's never intense as my gay fantasies.
     
  10. Searching2022

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    I don't know if this is what 'holds me back' but I very much have feelings of fear, shame and disgust. But the main thing holding me back I think is that it never seems real outside fantasy and my feelings/attraction to women feels real enough outside.
     
  11. zgaynz

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    It'll never feel real until you accept yourself for who you are, whether that's gay, straight or somewhere in between. Have you thought the attraction and feelings towards women outside of fantasies might be a coping mechanism? You previously indicated that you have no sexual arousal towards women during your non-fantasy times, what about men?

    For me, the fear will never go away. Only a couple of people know I'm gay so I live in the fear that they will spill the beans before I do and once it's out in the open, then it's fear of how people will react consciously and subconsciously towards a middle aged gay man. Society has come a long way in accepting levels of homosexuality (in my experience, they seem to accept women far more than men) but it's still go a long way to go.

    As for the shame and disgust, I think many of us go through when we've been conditioned that anything other than straight is a sin/wrong. I can tell you from my experience that does go away in time with acceptance. Acceptance is the key, well, was for me anyway. I didn't choose to be gay, the only choice I had in the matter was whether or not to accept it. Live a lie and be unhappy or accept myself as I am. I chose the later and it turned out to be one of the best decisions I made. The shame and disgust for being myself is gone, in fact, I'm proud and love being gay. Many gay people may never get to that stage and it's a shame. It does sound like the fear, shame and disgust might be holding you back. That's not something easily overcome.
     
  12. Filip

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    I don't want to detract from what others said here. I agree with pretty much all of it. But it always helped me to get multiple perspectives, so for what it's worth: here's my own.

    First off: I do believe that the "cycle of acceptance" approach is fundamentally a good description of what most of us go through. And listening to people who reached the acceptance phase can be motivational. It shows you that if it happened for those people, it could very well be in your future as well. An encouraging thought!

    On the other hand, it is called a "process" for a reason. It takes time. You have to work through each of these phases. You can't just decide that you'll deny for one more week and then be angry for one more week and then consider some bargaining. Sometimes a phase takes a few months, and sometimes you skip one, only to discover you fell back into a "previous" phase.

    And then, finally, acceptance is not just a point you reach and then just spend eternity inhabiting. It is an attitude, a skill, something you get better and better at manifesting each day (and even then, on some days even ten years into it, you wake up and realise that it still is weird to think of yourself as "gay", when you're really just the same guy you always were, except that he is OK with liking boys now).

    It took me the better part of three years to accept it even part of the time. That is, from realising that dating women was just not going to happen, to telling some of my very closest friends that I was "probably not going to be dating girls", to telling a guy I would like to go out on a date one time and see if there was any chemistry there.

    And even though you may call that "acceptance", we literally drove separately for hours to make sure that no one we knew would ever see us having very chaste dinner in a restaurant far far away. And then got a motel where we slept in one bed, but with a pillow fort in between the two so there was no accidental touching in the middle of the night. It was honestly more a chaste straight teen sleepover in retrospect (even though we were just shy of 30).
    Took us another year to be OK with a second date. And another year after that before we even mentioned each other's existence to our closest friends. Even then, I never out and out used the g-word to most of my friends and family. It was more just "Well, I met this guy and we like clicked and you're going to see us together a lot from now on".

    Why am I telling you this? Not to make you despair and go "FIVE WHOLE YEARS? I DON'T HAVE THAT TIME!". In fact, I was particularly slow and literally all gay people I know went faster. But I'm telling you mostly to put you at ease and assure you that whatever you do, you can do it at your own pace. And go back a bit. And experiment. And retain the parts you like and drop the parts you don't like.

    I was particularly stricken by the following quote:

    Yes, there will be change. But also, don't think of it as "currently I am me, and in the future I'll be gay".
    It's not something that'll overwrite your personality and what you like to do and how you live your life.
    You don't have to suddenly take up different hobbies and make new friends and listen to different music and hang out in different places. You could do none of those, or any of those, or all of those. But it's up to you to see what you want to change and to maybe try it. And you're absolutely free to go back to the previous situation if you don't like it.

    Going to gay clubs? Was fun, but not something I have made a habit of. Changing my dresscode? I'm still as boring and out-of-fashion as I ever was. Making gay friends? I have made one really good one and a couple of acquaintances, but I still have my old rather stereotypically straight friend group. That guy who I went on a date with? He was a keeper and I'm convinced we'll spend the rest of our given time on this earth together.
    So did I become "gay"? It's definitely a useful shorthand. But I like to think of it as becoming "more me".

    I'm not sure this gets you to acceptance right away. But maybe it can serve as some inspiration nonetheless.
     
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  13. Searching2022

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    That is what I fear.
    I read this on another thread and found even just asking these questions helpful:

    There has to be a reason I have these feelings and confronting them and re-defining them might help
     
  14. Searching2022

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    I was justing thinking how crazy any further denial or going back in the closet is:

    When I am in my 'acceptance' part of my 'cycle':
    • I feel alive, happy, I think about the future, I get excited about the idea of going on a date with a guy.
    • I have vivid sexual energy and fantasies.
    • I accept that my primary sexual desires are to receive anal intercourse and give blow jobs, with giving anal still desirable. but having sex with women? work.
    • I realize I want to be gay and actually love being gay.

    When I am in my 'denial' part of the cycle:
    • I feel glum and depressed. Everything seems gray.
    • I try to 'work' to like women.
    • I have no motivation to actually carry through with asking an women out.

    How could I believe I am anything but gay and how do I think continuing denial is going to work out?
     
  15. Incoming

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    If it's any consolation, what you're going through is a part of human nature, or at least certain human dilemmas that go beyond the closet.

    For example, I had relatively little difficulty accepting that I was 100% gay. But I struggled for much of my life trying to decide what kind of person I wanted to be - so I oscillated for decades between wanting to be a bohemian artist, versus a Wall Street guy. Whichever path I chose, I ended up swinging back to the other extreme and becoming depressed about it.

    It's a very human quality to struggle with incompatible goals - especially when pressure from your family to be "successful", or pressure from society to be "normal", enter the picture.

    Don't be so hard on yourself ?
     
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  16. Enzo46

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    I think that what you are going through is entirely normal and you will find that over time the “acceptance” phase begins to last much longer than the “denial” phase until it takes over completely and you realise how good and right that feels. Meanwhile you should go at your own pace in exploring your sexuality.
     
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  17. Searching2022

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    You're right! The 'denial' cycles are getting shorter, and acceptance does feel so good!
     
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  18. Searching2022

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    I was reading over this again...


    I definitely seem to be here right now!

    I rationalize them as sexual fetishes, or some sort of 'cause' or escapist fantasy. But when I really think about, I am just not aroused sexually other than imagining having sex with a man. There are rare occasions (1-3% of the time? I fantasize about a woman)
    YEs
    Yes.

    I have been here a little, but usually back to stage two but whenI am here, I do realize I want more than sexual fantasy that my desires and fantasizing become romantic too. My fantasies also take on greater role, where I see having sex with another man as completing me.


    I hold on to the fact I look at women but I realize it is almost exclusively their butts....


    Sometimes I am here, and it does feel like a relief but something always kicks me back to 2.

    Sometimes I reach this stage too

    I guess this is what I am searching for now.

    Maybe doing some 'work' might help me.
     
    #18 Searching2022, Jan 7, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
  19. Searching2022

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    I just want to add some notes so I remember if I fall into denial again:
    1.right now I just admitted to myself I don't like women's vaginas or having sex with women it has always been a chore. When I admitted this to myself I felt an incredible sense of relief!.
    2.Right now I feel incredibly happy about accepting that I am gay, relieved about not having to think about women, and I really wish this feeling would just stay with me.
     
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  20. Contented

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    Here’s hoping your now gay for life. lol, congrats on your ability to accept your homosexuality.