Why Stay in the Closet in a Tolerant Society?

I just recently came out only to a couple people. However, I know that I will be judged in my society and the circles I am in. Maybe you're just afraid that you'll still be judged even though you're in a seemingly tolerant society

 

I agree with this part. I am in California right now. A pretty tolerant area. If I came out to everyone right now, chances are I wouldn't be physically harmed. However, that doesn't mean that there would be no negative consequences. I very well could be out of a job and my job does have an anti discrimination policy. If someone really wants to fire you, they'll find a reason eventually.

Coming out in a tolerant area doesn't necessarily mean that there are no negative consequences. It depends on the individual and the people in their life. Do they have a supportive family? Will they face harassment at work? The questions go on and on. While the negative consequences of me coming out in California probably won't be as bad as someone coming out in Texas or Louisiana, I would still have negative consequences that I don't want to deal with at this moment in time

 

Yesss, so much this.

I rarely deny if the topic comes up these days, but I'm only human. I don't have the emotional fortitude to make sure the whole world knows and stand against the deluge of reactions. What gets passed around about bisexuals is particularly hurtful to me because it's so against who I am as a person, and since I spend a lot of time around other women now I don't want to hear suspicions that I'm into them personally - and get the vibe that it would be gross or weird.

Some of it is remnants from my teenage years, maybe. Wondering if I'm "allowed" to like women or what a woman who likes women should be like. Hearing about how hot and horny bisexuals are supposed to be, or how it's just a phase or a game. Some of it isn't.

I live in a state which is considered fairly tolerant, but that doesn't mean that everyone is tolerant. That doesn't mean there are no slurs, no whispered remarks, no stereotypes, no odd looks, and no anonymous comments or bigots. I work a social job that involves interacting with people from various cultures and countries which requires me to socialize smoothly and be trusted in order to succeed. I can only imagine what I'd get now or in the future if my orientation was common knowledge.

Sure, discrimination and hate crimes are illegal here. But will mothers be comfortable with an openly bisexual woman working with their children and teens as a mentor, counselor, tutor, or teacher? What's more important: being recognized for what I am or doing what's important to me?

 

People gossip in California and New York, too, and are capable of making snide comments and determining they do not want a homosexual or bisexual person to hit certain job mileposts. You can't control that. And with a lot of "employment at will," there are indeed ways to get around the discrimination and harassment.

People shouldn't be gratuitous in their coming out to invite trouble. That's why many here are selectively out. If you're a gay doctor in the gay part of town in a liberal city with a predominately gay patient base, then you probably won't have much a problem. People need to evaluate their contexts when making these decisions. There's no point in being a martyr for the heck of it.

 

I live in a very tolerant area in a liberal state, and still am very much in the closet. Granted, I questioned for two years, fell strongly into denial for 6-7 months, and have known for sure that I'm not straight, and still don't even know if I'm completely homosexual and am still in denial about not liking guys at all or if I'm bisexual or if I'm asexual and bi/homoromantic or what. And the thing is that I've always been accepting but I always thought of it as someone else's problem, not mine, and that I was going to grow up and get married and have kids (despite the fact that I didn't like kids lol, I still thought I would have them) and it would be all stereotypical and great, and now that's changed, and I don't know what to think anymore, and I felt so alone and that they wouldn't understand. Or they would reject me even though I know everyone is completely accepting minus maybe two or three friends. So why didn't I come out? I don't know. Once I was sure I wasn't straight I told myself I wouldn't hide, that if someone asked or if it came up in conversation I would be like "yeah, I'm bi" but when times came I got so scared and I didn't. And even when I did come out I got so scared and I panicked and I had no idea what I was saying and once I said "I'm bisexual" I actually ran away.

So, in answer to your question, I don't know. ;D

 

Well California is such a big and diverse state that it would especially be a mistake to say "oh California is a liberal and tolerant state so it's perfectly fine to come out to anyone there". Remember Proposition H8 passed in California, and even LA County voted for it (by a very narrow margin, 50.04% in favor, 49.96% against, which suggests the city of LA itself voted against it but the surrounding areas all voted for it). There are still a lot of super-conservative parts of California, just as there are in pretty much any state.

(The big (or rather, small) exceptions I can think of are some of the small New England states, which are pretty universally liberal to varying degrees. In Massachusetts you can go from the gay resort town of Provincetown on the tip of Cape Cod, to the well-educated sophisticated urbanites in Boston and Cambridge, to the ultra-left-wing rural areas out in Berkshire County in the far west of the state. Perhaps unsurprisingly, Massachusetts was the first state in the USA to legalize marriage equality, back in 2004)

Here in New York City, the general atmosphere is of course one of 'tolerance' and acceptance of different kinds of people and lifestyles. When you got over 8.3 million people squeezed into such a small geographic area as this, you're going to have to learn to accept diversity and being around all different kinds of people. In parts of Manhattan, it is not uncommon to see two guys walking around holding hands.

In more conservative parts of NYC's Outer Boroughs though (like Staten Island, parts of Brooklyn and Queens that are home to lots of Russians or Orthodox Jews), it's going to be a different story, you would get stares or worse if you walked around holding hands as a proud gay couple. Of course in the most 'gay' areas of Manhattan (like Chelsea and the Village), gays put their guard down, while gay-bashers, with nothing else to do in their lives, know to travel to these areas to look for fags to bash (like the recent anti-gay hate crime murder in the Village).

There is also still a lot of rampant homophobia in black and Hispanic parts of Brooklyn, Manhattan, and the Bronx, which is why LGBTQ people of color make up a disproportionate share of homeless LGBTQ youth kicked out of their homes in NYC. Opposition to gay rights among black and Hispanic voters was a crucial component enabling the passage of Prop H8 in California (there's a reason why we lost the Prop H8 battle 52-48, getting crushed in SoCal so badly that we even lost even LA County, while Barack Obama was winning California 61-37 and taking almost 70% of the vote in LA County).


(Fortunately attitudes are changing in these communities, especially among the youth. But you still have old bigots like state Sen. Ruben Diaz, a 70-year-old Hispanic Democrat, being the leading anti-gay loudmouth in NYC, organizing churches and communities for big rallies against marriage equality back when it was being debated in 2011- fortunately, we won that debate, and marriage equality is reality across New York State ).

 

People think of California as being very liberal. It's very liberal, in pockets, such as the Castro, WeHo, and Hillcrest, and of course, even more areas such as artist communities and resort towns. However, it should not be forgotten that there is a very large traditional Hispanic Catholic population, as well as people who live in rural areas who have to have their guns. The latter groups are red, not blue.

 

My sentence "a pretty tolerant area" was referring to the area I live in not the entire state. Sorry, I should have clarified. That is what I get for typing too fast :lol:. I've traveled extensively up and down California so I know about a lot of the different areas. I should have put "Currently, I'm in a pretty tolerant area of California". In my previous post, my sentence structure was incorrect.

I don't want to derail the thread so I'll only mention this briefly. I've always been hesitant to say that Hispanics and African Americans was a crucial component to Prop 8 passing. At first, just the African Americans were blamed. Then, some people realized that African Americans can't do anything voting wise in a statewide election all by themselves in California. After that, all of a sudden it was the African Americans and the Hispanics/Latinos. It looked a bit like the old "put the racial minorities and gays against each other" tactic that groups like NOM are infamous for. It did kind of work.

According to Let California Ring:

The full study that they're referencing can be found here (pdf warning).

I see we're in agreement. I think you made the point a lot better (and quicker) than I did though. If I go to a LGBT event and the word spreads, it could potentially cause some trouble. I plan on going to a few events once I switch career paths and get settled. However, I'm being cautious for now.

I hope all of this answers the OP's question. Being in a tolerant area may help but it won't solve all problems.

 

A tolerant area doesn't mean your immediate or extended family is automatically tolerant. Same for your employer, business partner, boss, etc...

 

Where I live in the US, you can still be fired for being gay, no other reason required. You can also be denighed promotion, jobs or houseing for it. If you hold your lovers hand in public, you can be accosted, sure you can press charges, but that is not going to help if you ahve been raped and beated with your face smashed in. So, staying in the closet for safety reasons makes sense at least here.

 

Not being trained in law, I don't understand how this can hold up at the state level when, on a federal level, many forms of discrimination appear to be against the law. That this can even exist in 2014 is quite shocking. I really think what happens is that a dismissal is surreptitiously assigned to "another" reason so an employer in a conservative area doesn't run into problems. I guess it's because I don't understand the intersection of state and federal laws. I'm sure some lawyers don't either. LOL.

 

Well, I wouldn't say being gay is tolerant until you can tell someone without batting an eye. That would be about square. And in the professional sense, depending on whether you're in a "masculine" profession, such as sports.. some value the camaraderie too much to potentially sacrifice those bonds. There are tons of other circumstances. I think when we put less emphasis on the moment, others will as well.

 

There is no federal anti-discrimination law protecting LGBTQ folks. ENDA (Employment Non-Discrimination Act) has been on the docket for a while, it probably would have passed a long time ago had it stuck solely to sexual orientation, but throw in gender identity and all the bathroom fearmongering, and the bill is dead on arrival.

Meanwhile Obama is too much of a coward to issue an executive order, saying to wait for Congress to act even though they never will.

But in many parts of the USA, it's perfectly legal to fire someone for being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. Some states, cities, and counties have anti-discrimination laws (mostly liberal states, cities, and counties), but a lot of Americans are out of luck if they live in, say, a conservative Southern state.




Purple: Law prohibits all employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity
Dark Blue: Law prohibits all employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation
Pink:Law prohibits public employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity
Light Blue:Law prohibits public employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation
Grey: "You're gay? You're fired."

So for example, here in New York State, we have a statewide law prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation. A law prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity (GENDA), which I attended a rally for in the state capital of Albany last April, has been stalled forever, for the same reasons why a federal ENDA has not made it through Congress. New York City fortunately has full coverage of anti-discrimination laws for both sexual orientation and gender identity via local ordinances.

You can see liberal counties in conservative states often have local ordinances (like Salt Lake City in Utah, Austin/Dallas in Texas, Missoula/Helena in Montana, Lawrence in Kansas, Atlanta in Georgia, Gainesville/Tallahassee/Daytona/Tampa/St. Petersburg/Miami/Ft.Lauderdale/Palm Beach/Key West in Florida) but for the most part conservative states say it's A-OK for a business to fire you for being gay or trans.

 

I live in a fairly tolerant area and I was afraid because when you come out it's a huge part of who you are. There is a fear of rejection and that people will be overly accepting. Meaning some people treat gays (mainly male) as accessories. Also I personally was bullied by some girls who thought I was a lesbian before coming out.

 

This map tells me that Westboro Baptist is more liberal than Ken Cuccinelli.

Great map, really. And it's sort of predictable in a way.

Greater Houston isn't purple. Neither are Atlanta's various counties. I'm sure a person could sit here all day and look for contradictions.

 

i cannot ever see myself coming out to my parents. and its scary. even thou i think they might suspect it. and i dont think theyd care. but I have anxiety issues.

 

It's a really good question, and not one that I've ever actually consciously tried to answer before.

I'm as certain as it's possible to be that everyone I care about will be absolutely fine with it when I eventually manage to come out to them. Yes, even in a liberal part of the UK and with a liberal family and friendship group, my life will be more difficult as a gay man than it would be as a straight man. But I have to admit that I'm in one of the safest and more accepting places in the world to come out. And the few difficulties and risks that it does present aren't the reason I still find myself unable to come out to most people.

I guess that for me the difficulty of coming out is not about fear of the consequences, it's about the difficulty of breaking the habit of a lifetime. Anyone who is in the closet for any amount of time at all (so basically all queer people) learns how to lie at a pretty early age - to themselves, to their friends and family, to the world. Even if your sexuality is the only thing you keep from people, you are essentially lying to them all the time. And that's a hard habit to break.

I'm finding it particularly difficult because as far as I can tell no-one has ever suspected that I'm gay. I've had girlfriends and slept with girls in the past, I don't come off as gay at all (it makes me furious that there's even such a thing as 'seeming gay', but that's how it is unfortunately.) It's a difficult thing to reveal to people that you're a completely different person than they thought you were, even if they'd be absolutely fine with that person. It's like someone stripping naked in the middle of a crowd - just because you're ok with your body, doesn't mean it's easy to suddenly not wear clothes any more.

 

Even living in a mildly tolerant state and area I still face the issues of being out and I try to conceal my relationships frequently. People still are not that open the the idea of homosexuality and do discriminate against people who are homosexual.

I've lost a job due to my sexual orientation, I have people who still treat me poorly, won't give me a a chance in anything, there are people who would still track me down and beat me if not kill me even in areas 'up north'. I've had friends who've been beaten up by people with anti-LGBT and related views. There are shootings, stabbings, etc.

Not to mention the lack of social and related support by people in communities and areas. If I was straight and went to a church or support area in a time of crisis I would receive help, being LGBT there are no areas that would support me in my region. You can't deny that that has a significant effect on people weather they kneed any help or not, knowing that you will be denied for something that you can't choose or change is just as devastating.

Regardless of how progressive an area is and how hard we try to protect ourselves and despite the success of others being LGBT and related is hardly an easy or safe thing, even now.

That is why I still stay in the Closet most of the time even in the northeast. I'm just not safe, it doesn't take long to learn that.

 

Coming from the Netherlands myself, I can tell you that even though the general laws might be more in favor of gay people (gay marriage is legalized ect), a lot of people are still homophobic and sometimes aggressive towards them, making coming out a big deal still.