LGBTQ "Privilege"

I'm seriously too lazy to reply(quote) to all of that.

From your posts, you seem to be behaving quite cisphobic and its kind of irritating >.> "White, pretty gay boy" - "All the cis people talk, oh my god"? Its hard to argue from a stance of equality when you say things like that.

You yelling (well, Caps locking) and telling me to fuck off isn't helping either. You can have a healthy discussion/debate/argument without resulting to insults.

I know that these "privileges (still better words) shouldn't be ignored" I specifically said that we shouldn't ignore them, because if we did, nothing would get done. Bringing them up and throwing pity parties, and having your problems addressed are two different things. Theres one thing to be said for "I think we should focus on trans peoples rights related to school bathroom and public bathroom facilities" and theres another thing to be said for "I'm tired of all the cis people that can just know which bathroom to go into and not be discriminated for it" Is your claim valid? Yes. Does bringing it up all the time help? No.

Yeah, your right about cis people, its 3 am. I didn't mean to imply Cis people's problems were because they were cisgendered, but because they are simply people. All people have problems, on different levels and perspectives, but thats what I was getting at.


On the topic of recognization.. Again, i said I do understand that Cis people have SOMETIMES easier lives than Trans people. Its not fair to generalize, even if it is usually true. We have easier lives in different ways, just as WE have harder lives in different ways. (by we, I mean the LGB cis community.. which I hate to divide into, but am doing it for the sake of this discussion >.<) Some of the differnces are more apparent, some less, so pointing out every single one just for the sake of it DOESN'T help.

Again.. you completely ignored my paragraph that said we shouldn't ignore these "privileges".
For the record, the way you are talking about privileges is more akin to just talking about them for the sake of it rather than for the sake of educating other people from what I can read.

This is a really jumbled post, im sorry xD

Last point, NO. i don't think Trans* people should just have to sit at the back of the line and WAIT for things to be done simply because history and numbers have put gay people at the front of the line. If anything, we should all be crossing the finish line together, but the cruel reality is that PROBABLY won't happen at this rate. Coming onto forums, talking with your friends about other people's privileges doesn't help. Your still at the back of the line if thats your only intention. There are things we can ALL do to help Trans people get to the front of the line, but again, realistically there are still a lot of Transphobic people who happen to not be straight. Honestly, when I first came out and educated myself on Homosexuality, that's what i focused on. Its whats in the media the most, its what you hear about the most. Is it fair? No, but it is reality; a sad one admittedly. I didn't know ANYTHING about Trans* people, and in fact I considered that I might be trans for a quite long time, but came to grips with my sexuality in my own personal struggle that I won't go into detail on after I did my research on gender identities and what not. Its cruel and unfair, but you don't have to deal with it. I try to spread the word everytime I can to help Trans peoples acceptance and rights, because I realize I was doing nothing before. Even if it doesn't personally affect me. I think this kind of thing is really apparent with straight supporters of gay marriage for example. It doesn't affect them personally always, but they are standing up for what they believe in. This kind of thinking process is what we need more in our community if we wan't to get things done! It's not fair that Trans people are behind, but Idk what to say else other than do what you can to help bring them up instead of talking about "privileges". We acknowledge these so called "privileges", but we don't intentionally condone them or celebrate them, and they shouldn't be used to make your pleas seem more worthy, nor to make ours seem less necessary.

I hate that I used such exclusionary terms in this long post, but I had to be specific *bows for forgiveness* Also, sorry if this seemed to be targetting of you. Sometimes i meant "you" as in You, and other times I meant everyone other than whoever I was talking about... If you understand what I mean? *gosh I'm confusing*

 

Perfect post, the whole thing. I too am too lazy to quote the whole thing for I have yet to sleep. :lol: Everything you said is exactly what my response was in my head, especially the highlighted part.

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2013 at 03:48 AM ----------

Whoa, take it easy. This post really feels like an example of the division/oppression olympics mentality that this very thread is about. It's not helpful and you don't need to cap-shout.

 

You're missing the point because you're too caught up in being personally offended.

Despite the choice of words, if you read between the lines a little bit nobody is actually saying that trans* people don't have problems (or no more problems than cis people). I think people would be out of their right mind to honestly think that cis people somehow have it as hard as trans* people, given all the stories we hear on here and in the news and etc.

No, trans* people are not the same as gay people or bi people or whateversexual people. Gender identity is not the same as sexual orientation. I'm pretty sure everyone here gets that. However, when you look at this from the perspective of "here is this group of people different from the norm (LGBTQ*) fighting for their collective rights" it does none of us any good to get caught up in our differences. We're all working towards the same goal (at least I assume so, unless someone doesn't want equal rights for some reason). It splits our efforts, lowers our morale, and does very little to present ourselves well to those people we're "fighting" against for rights.

Now that this whole thread is said, we've established it does us little good to emphasize which group is "better" than the other groups within the overarching LGBTQ* group. That said, it also does just as little good to focus on how which group has it so much "worse" than the other groups. Two sides of the same coin.

 

I actually agree with this. The thing is, I think we need to not be competing with each other. It's important to acknowledge that some groups - i.e., trans* folks - are in a very different place than gay, lesbian, or bi persons. But competition - i.e., "my group is different from yours and therefore you shouldn't try to understand" - is NOT going to help us. I think it's important to recognize that some groups get a lot more flack than others in many contexts, but not to resent other individuals and identities for having something in another context that we don't or can't have. Because guess what? Differences exist, but we're all people, and I want to work together. As queers. As people. As friends.

This isn't to compare LGBTQ-ism to having any kind of disease, but let me point something out just as an example: I have type 1 diabetes. Food is not something that's "normal" to me. If I want ice cream, guess what? It's not just ice cream; it's a math problem. There's no such thing as spontaneity. And sometimes I look at people just taking for granted that they can eat and enjoy anything and everything they want, and I think, "God, you all suck for having that privilege, and do you have any idea how damn lucky you are?" But that's not fair. They're people, and I'm a person, and diabetes isn't my fault: it's a part of me. All I can do is educate and hope others don't look at me differently (because they do).

And when it comes to things like being bi, or gay, or trans*, or whatever you might be, jealousy may happen. I mean, gosh, of course! It's normal. I don't blame you. I want to be straight, for sure! But I can't do that. I'm sure if I were gay or trans* or pan or whatever, I would still want to be straight. And I get jealous. A LOT. But it doesn't help: I DO NOT WANT TO SEE PEOPLE AS WHAT I CANNOT BE.

 

The question has been posed multiple times in this thread: what's the point of talking about privilege, it's just divisive. And I think that question can only really come from a privileged perspective.

I'm much more familiar with discussions on white privilege so I may frame many of my arguments about privilege from that perspective rather than discussing cis-privilege. The point of my privilege isn't that I've ever had anything in life handed to me, or that my life has been easy, or easier (I am in fact quite certain that there are plenty of non-white people who have had easier lives than myself!). The point is that there are societal privileges that I can ignore because they don't actually effect me. As a white male I don't ever have to worry that somebody will look at me and think I'm a scoundrel of sorts based on my race. I can consume just about any type of popular media and see people that look like me. I can go to most schools in the country and be surrounded by people of my race. As a man, I have to worry significantly less about being objectified by random people on the street, and I don't have to worry about being passed over for most jobs simply because my gender might make me seem less qualified.

I think it's important for those of who are cisgendered to think about that privilege as well. I've never really had to think too much about the way I express my gender to others. I've never had to worry for my personal safety simply because I've expressed my gender. I've never had to worry about someone accusing me of not belonging in a changing room that is my designated to my gender. The list goes on.

Privilege is a difficult thing to discuss because it's invisible. As I go on with my day-to-day life I don't realize all the privilege that I have from being a white, able-bodied, cisgendered man. Saying that I am privileged doesn't mean that my life is easy, or that I never worked for anything. It just means that there are obstacles that I haven't had to face that are very real for other people. Only by thinking about privilege can we, as a society and a community, work against it. That's why it's important to think about it.

 

So do I get to talk then?

I'd really like you to ignore all the identifying crap I have on the left side. Even Sydney Bloom from VR.5. I don't even have good taste in old T.V. shows, completely anon. And then read this.

I came here because I was having a really hard time after coming out with something I'd kept secret. That secret made me feel really ashamed of myself, and it really shouldn't have. It had done a lot of harm in every part of my life, especially my relationships. There were times when I felt really low, to the point where I went to a therapist to save my life. Even now, as I struggle to show the world more and more of who I am whether the world likes it or not, I've got lots of questions and read a lot of great answers here. It's good to have some place where I can be me online and everyone else is cool with it, because it's really scary in real life. I get scared of how even people that I like and even love and am close to, as far as how they will react to me and treat me. And the stuff I read in the news about people being violent toward people like me is even scarier. There are probably some family members that will never talk to me again as soon as I tell them my secret. But being me, all the time, no hiding or lying, and loving who I am, is worth it all.

There. That could have been any one of us, right? Which I think is what the OP was saying. We all have a ton of shared experiences.

When I head the word "privilege" I think "Bruce Wayne". To me it means "has the ability to make a difference". It means the same thing as "power" to me. Like right now, in this conversation, I feel like I have a privilege. The problem isn't having privilege, it's what some people do with it. And I prefer the word "douche" when someone misuses it.

So it makes sense to use the word in my view is when someone's misusing that power. I mean the turn of phrase "check your privilege", it works. People understand what it means. It means "you're being a jerk". Which is what I usually say But it's better in some ways than what I say because it lets the person know how exactly they are being a jerk. It says look at yourself and your situation before talking about other people.

I still don't use it because it's only going to work with some people. "You're being a jerk" is more universal. But that's just preference.

So there are people though that misuse that power. There's jerks all over the internet. And the thing about being a jerk is that if you find people that agree with you, you feel like less of a jerk. So they travel in packs. And it does sometimes happen that people are jerks to us trans people, which really sucks if it's happening somewhere you went to to get away from all that. It's even worth mentioning "us trans people" because there aren't a lot of us by numbers.

But that doesn't make it right when anyone is being a douche. Just period. If you're being a douche I don't care how much of a douche you are. I don't want to rank you against other jerks.

And I really feel like we're capable of being jerks too. Like when I read this,

See I have come across this before. I mean a lot of my friends would probably tell people to knock it off if someone was giving Gen's friend crap. You be who you are. But there are some messageboards I've gone to where people that cross dress feel like there's a totem pole and they're on the bottom of it. And it's stupid, because it's the exact same thing that makes them feel terrible about themselves that we have. They need more freedom to express who they are than society will give them. And they're just as terrified at the prospect of standing up against the world.

I think a lot of it is leftover from the days when the medical community made us prove we were opposite gender before giving us any help at all. It's exactly what gay people have to go through when we want to be parents. There's this BS burden of proof on you and double standard that straight parents just plain don't have to go up against. And some of the standards are completely ridiculous. Like with us transitioners, once upon a time they didn't help gay women at all. If you didn't like boys, you weren't woman enough to transition. There's a lot of other crap that, you look back on it in hindsight and it's pretty blatantly sexist. But that's just the way these things work.

So I mean you have this thing you really want - really what any girl in your position would want if she woke up and found out her face was covered with hair and people kept calling her "sir" and she couldn't have a normal relationship with anyone - and you have to prove you aren't this group of people over here in order to get it. I think that's going to cause a lot of people to look at that group of people in a bad way.

And really what I want is just permission from society to be me. So I get that meaning of the word "privilege" too. That's like my "driving privilege". It's still power but it's power over you. Some people it's okay for them to be men and women. Some people aren't allowed to. If I looked more like a normal girl then people wouldn't give me so much shit for being one. So really I feel like when people say "check your privilege" from here it means "don't step on me". There's a lot more desperation.

And again I don't think there is any point to ranking it. If you're stepped on you are stepped on whether the shoe is 10 times as big as you are or a hundred.

So I mean this is a support forum. And I don't think anyone should be scared of being stepped on here. Cis or not.

 

That's why I identify as a-gender.
I'm physically male, but beyond that I 'feel' neither male or female. I do exhibit behaviour which most people would consider feminine as well as masculine.
But I cannot honestly identify as male, nor female.

Also random curiosity question: Why do you altenate parts of your posts with green and black letter colours?

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2013 at 05:08 PM ----------

Finally, I fully agree with the OP. All this privilige and totem bandying only creates counterproductive and irrational conflict.

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2013 at 05:13 PM ----------

You think every cisgendered male is equally masculine?
You think every cisgendered female is equally feminine?
Have you ever heard of transvestites for example?
The point is that it isn't black and white, that there isn't one group who has it worse than others.

 

I agree with some of this. I agree we shouldn't be squabbling about who has it worse. And I believe we should all be working towards getting a better world for everyone, not just those who fall into our little category.

However, rejecting the idea of privilege is ridiculous. It is important to recognise ones own privilege, and recognise that others in this community are less privileged than you are. This is not to lessen the struggles of being gay. This is not to say that cisgender people cannot participate in discussions about gender. Its to make sure you don't abuse it. Privilege doesn't make you a bad person, it puts you in a position to help those who are less privileged.

One note I'd like to make, though, on the subject of cisgender privilege:

There are many aspects to gender, and while cisgender people can struggle with their own gender and gender expression, there are some struggles more or less unique to transgender people: legal, financial and social aspects of having transitioned or being in the process of transition. Struggling with one's gender is an internal thing, and not unique to transpeople. Anyone who goes through it has my sympathies. But that doesn't mean you've suddenly lost the entirety of cisgender privilege. Keep that in mind when saying cisgender privilege isn't shared by all cis-people.

 

It's not about rejecting, it's about assuming someone has privilige when you don't know that person.
It's about erasing other people's problems because they have a 'privilige' you don't have.
It's about playing the martyr game.
It's about attacking allies who haven't done anything to you.

I don't think anyone here denies that transpeople have unique issues to overcome.
All that's being argued against is the notion of certain transsexual people that cisgendered people don't have gender issues.

 

I think the discussion of privilege is a hard one if people don't come from the same definition of privilege.

In our culture if someone is privilege it means that they have it easy in live. From a social justice perspective, privilege just means that in certain areas and in certain scenarios you have a certain amount of power that others do not. It does not speak about your whole entire life.

Privilege can only be measured and comparable when we talk about people in the same situation. Any other comparison is useless.

Knowing your privilege in different scenarios is a very powerful thing because you are able to stop yourself from oppressing other people without meaning to. For example, it would be incredibly incentive of me to declare that a trans* person is lazy because I can get a job fast and they can't. In those situations is important for me to know exactly why I get a job faster and to know its not due to me just being a "better" worker.

But please, lets not discard the fact that certain groups do have systematic privileges in our community. This doesn't mean that their lives are easier, but it does mean that while they are in a situation where they are surrounded by LGBT people that they will have more power than others.

 

Why is everyone so afraid of generalizing. We are talking about groups of people. Some groups of people have "privilege" over others. It is so simple. Just because a rich white kid from the suburbs can potentially have a worse life full of more hardship than a poor black kid from the inner city does not negate the white kids privilege. Pointing out privilege makes those with privilege check their freaking privilege. Growing up in a mostly white community I never understood white privilege, but after listening to people tell me about it and describe it I now recognize that I have it and I sympathize with those who don't. The people who make acknowledging privilege divisive are the people who are defensive about the privilege that THEY HAVE.

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2013 at 01:11 PM ----------

Thank you. This post is insightful and more put together than my ranting.

 

Telling people to shut up is rude, unnecessary, and contrary to the entire message of this thread.

And quite frankly, with attitudes like that, why would you wonder why so many "cis" gay people decide to close themselves off to learning or caring about trans issues?

This is supposed to be a friendly support forum for all the members of the LGBT community. Telling people to shut up is totally uncalled for. If you think people are saying things that are wrong, there is a polite and respectful way of disagreeing with them and educating them as to why their opinions are erroneous. "Shut up, you're automatically stupid and wrong because you're cis" is NOT the way to do that.

Some people need to get it through their heads that being trans is not a license to treat other people like shit. This "cis people shut up" attitude is a common one on this forum, it's totally unnecessary and moreover it hurts your own cause by dividing and alienating members of your own community. Do you see the LGBT community as one community or not? If you don't see us all as one community, then why act surprised that many LGB people don't see us as one either?

Every single person on this forum is vulnerable in some way, that's why they came to a support forum like this. You have no clue what each individual poster's cross is to bear in life, what their experiences and background and identity are. You have no right to dismiss or judge anyone, to trivialize their experiences, to treat them as inferior, to act rudely toward them, to make them feel unwelcome, to tell them to shut up- based on your own ignorant assumptions about them, whether it be their gender identity, sexual orientation, race, ethnic background, anything. Learn to treat people with respect. And by people, I mean everyone, even those who are different and whom you might disagree with.

 

I've been keeping watch of this thread for awhile and the use of "privilege" in this context bugs the hell out of me.

To me; privilege is something that transcends gender, sexuality, race, religion, age, nationality etc.

If you're born into a wealthy family or one with powerful connections - You are privileged. You can fit any combination of the categories up above and still have monumental advantages over most of the population.

Are some people fortunate to be born into who they are? Yes.

Have various parts of humanity/cultures/societies abused this flawed system of creation? Yes they have and continue to do so.

But I wouldn't go as far to say that I have 'privilege' in anything. Perhaps happenstance, circumstance, desired, favored, Whatever but privileged? :eusa_eh:

I'll gladly maul those who mistreat others based on any prejudice... but don't place me in a corner over my birth/life which I had no control over, in a world I generally have no sway over.

We can all work together to ensure fairness in the treatment of all people but this totem shit has to stop -- There are people out there who happily desire to slaughter us all, and I would like to keep my focus on them and not have to watch my back in a community where we're all shoving each other around like hapless toddlers.

 

The problem with trying to discuss privilege is that it often gets turned into people think they're being blamed for something. When I talk about heterosexual privilege I'm not accusing my straight friends of putting me down or somehow "blaming" them. Rather, conversations about privilege should come from a perspective of pointing out privileges they have that I don't. (Like here: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack II, or the originial document about white privilege here: http://ted.coe.wayne.edu/ele3600/mcintosh.html). Privilege is a societal problem, it's not about you. We're not trying to find the most privileged people in order to harass them. Thinking about privilege is about empathy, it's about understanding invisible challenges that other people face that I've never had to face because of my race, my class or my gender identity.

 

The thing about privilege, is most people are completely unaware of theirs, and when you get accusatory, angry messages aimed at those individuals, for something they have no control over and in many cases are oblivious to, you have on your hands a recipe for disaster. I can tell you my first conversations with online feminists didn't exactly go over smoothly, but they did open my eyes to much larger problems in the long-run.

That said, there is a hierarchy in the LGBT community, and I'm not going to pretend gay, white cismen are *not* at the top. By itself, this isn't an issue for me, but it does become an issue when the problems of others are pushed aside while those with these privileges expect others to support them and their causes. It's give and take, really, and like I said in another post, most people are concerned with what affects them directly.

As much as I enjoyed QAF, relating to Justin's situation, the moment I started noticing TLW included racial minorities and actually attempted to include their lives and situations, I knew which had the upper hand when it came to diversity, and which I found characters easier to related to. It was one of those "victory!" moments.

 

Thank you for reminding me why I refuse to step foot on tumblr (as if the screenshots screaming "Cisscum can die" and other related things weren't enough).

Thank you for reminding me why I hate the term "cis-" unless it's being used in reference to chemistry, organic chemistry, specifically.

Thank you for reminding me why I hate the term "check your privilege".

Thank you for reminding me why I somewhat distance myself from the non-binary community since I don't want to be associated with everything you just spewed.

But most of all, thank you for reminding me on why I have such a low tolerance of people.

 

In the words of diddy- dirty money "Ain't no stopping us now, I love that song, whenever it comes on it makes me feel strong." There are many things you have said gen that have actually scared me from coming out. One thing is a coming out fear i have, that i will be crucified, whipped, and tortured. I told my mom and she wants fucking grandkids and she really doesn't believe that i'm gay, at all. If i ever told my dad, i'd be subjected to mental torture. So because of this fear, i can't afford to come out now, because i know if i came out to rhe rest of the family, i'd be a fucking joke, especially to my dad and step-dad, which their friends.

Oh i also told mom that'd she would have grandkids, and she said biological grandkids, like she really doesn't want me to be gay.

Hell, i wonder what'd it'd be like if i came out to the rest of the earth. Hell i'm 15 and mom says it's a phase, when i know i'm gay 94% of the time.

So yes, i agree with you gen, it isn't a choice, but not really a privelige, as we are dealt with the cards god gave us, or the universe has decided our sexual orientation, i will stand tall soon, against the world.

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2013 at 02:52 PM ----------

Oh and plus, i like to wear my underwear like a thong, and have urges to wear womens clothing, but it doesn't mean im trans, i'm just a different person.