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Why do/don't you believe in God?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Multiverse, Jun 21, 2016.

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  1. NoXsOrOs

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    I always felt God was in everyone, it was said in the bible that a day in Gods perspective was 10,000 years. So I assumed God was like napping, thus he left a piece of himself in everyone in the form of "love". I feel this positively impacts my life because it gives me a sense or relation to God. But again its completely subjective.
     
  2. Jellal

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    God might exist, but the idea of a cosmological hierarchy doesn't appeal to me. It sounds to me like humans taking our basic idea of "follow the leader" and applying it on a cosmic scale. Making there be someone in charge of the universe just feels limiting.
     
  3. SpaceOddity

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    Without boring anyone with some long drawn out explanation as to why, I don't put my trust or waste my time on anything that has no proof or foundation or simply that just doesn't make a lick of sense to me. And I most certainly to not gather my morality from any doctrines that are full of so much hate and bigotry and violence as, oh let's say, the Bible. But there are of course a bucket of other religions and belief systems to follow other than that. I just used that as an example.

    This question can carry on till the end of time. Why? Because if someone has faith in God, a God, whichever God they worship and have faith ... Someone like me who doesn't can't touch that. Faith is defined as the belief in spiritual understanding RATHER than proof. So it's case closed. Us Atheists cannot disprove someone's belief in God or spirit.
     
  4. Tritri

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    There may be an individual or group of individuals who have created our universe from another (say, in an experiment), but I find it quite crazy that there can exist a single individual who created EVERYTHING that exists other than him/herself.
    Ask the question, why does the universe exist? Because X. Why? Because Y. etc.
    The question of "Why?" becomes one of infinite regress. In fact, asking "Why?" implies that a statement you are making is a consequence of another statement. Not all statements are a consequence of another. They just are. Axioms. Otherwise, you get an infinite regress.
    In the case of God, the answer to "Why does the universe exist?" is that "God created it". If you ask, "Why does God exist?", you have to accept it as not a consequence of something else, or find another explanation.
    Now consider the fine-tuning argument. We don't know where the laws of physics came from, or if they are a consequence of something else. If we count "life must be able to emerge" as a law of physics, the probability of the laws of physics allowing life to evolve jumps from 10^-(10^120) (or whatever ridiculously small number you say) to 1.
    In mathematics, you can create whatever axiomatic system you want, so long as it is self-consistent. Different systems may describe the same thing (such as the various constructions of the real numbers), and perhaps you can use the fact that life must be able to emerge as one of the axioms to describe a mathematical system that fits our universe perfectly, and everything else must be made consistent with that.
    Though... you'd have to define "life" to make the system precise.
    We are far from a theory of everything, so I don't expect any real scientific progress to be made on this any time soon.
    If God exists, he is part of the system, though the rules have to change and take him into account. If the universe is so oddly fine-tuned, so is God. We have the exact same questions.
     
  5. Joelouis

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    1: "God created Man in the image of Himself"

    Perhaps it was Man who created God in the image of himself.

    2: Drinking from the Holy Grail will yield eternal life.

    I see science and Mans technological advances providing this (eventually).
     
  6. AriKari

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    There's no proof of God ever existing and if he did exist I certainly wouldn't follow a god who created so much negativity. They say you can't have love without hate, dark without light, etc (which is absolutely preposterous), but if an almighty being can create anything and everything he could ever want, then that's simply not true. The teachings of religion are outdated and contradictory. Here's an example; Children make things up all the time to explain things they don't understand. It's a coping mechanism and it helps them understand the world around them. It doesn't mean that what the child thought made any sense and that it's true.
     
  7. mirkku

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    Amen! Live and let live, uh. As long as religious people do no try to spoonfeed their beliefs to me, I actually had very nice conversation with most religious groups, who also respected my non-religious status.
     
  8. heyguyswhatsup

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    The Bible Does Not Condemn Homosexuality. Why Does Franklin Graham Not Get This?

    Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the Bible to know if this is a credible source, that is only preying on wishful thinking, but the arguments seemed to make sense for most of them. I asked a Christian friend and he confirmed that the corruption in Sodom and Gomorrah is in part homosexuality, and not entirely. He also said that they were angels, manifested as men, so it makes me question if the Bible is really commenting on homosexuality, and not on interbreeding instead. Perhaps somebody will be able to confirm the validity of this source's interpretation for all the easily-led-astray agnostics out there, such as me.

    I always wondered about this: similarly, when is that turning point a convert radically switches their positions from "for" to "against"? I remember a friend of mine saying that usually he wouldn't care about homosexuality, but because the Bible says that you must warn others of their sin or else "the blood is on your hands too", he has to. I have met a couple of converts to Christianity whom, initially seemed to be fine with homosexuality prior, are now totally against it. Of course, when they were new, the pastor and other long-time Christians would not have brought that up until a while later.

    Another thing that I disagree with about people with radical views - on any side - is how stubborn they become if they see evidence that won't support something they believe. You could tell them that dogs exist and call for your Labrador, Jack, to come in and they'll still find a way to doubt it instead of thinking "wait, maybe they are onto something here". There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning your beliefs: why do so many people believe there is?

    Very good point.
    Most of the people on Earth today believe that the Earth is round without seeing more than pictures, videos and models of it (in an age with state-of-the-art editing techniques to manipulate any picture and video). Although there are scientific explanations for it, a lot of people have no idea about this. A lot of us do believe in things that we cannot see.
     
  9. Multiverse

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    In short, if there is an infinity number, of other universes, everything what can happen will happen, not once, not twice, but an infinite number of times. Basically everything will happen (because many things are possible). There will be an infinite number of universes in which Jesus truly became alive after 3 days, and infinite number of universes in which you have become alive after you have died.

    It is correct that homosexuality was not the only reason why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

    I haven't read the whole article, because I have already seen those arguments (many times). Basically, this is what Matthew Vines says in his book "God and Gay Christian". The short answer is that those ideas are simply false. The reason why his work/book did not make any difference within the circle of serious experts in the field, is the same why the work of Richard Carrier did not make any difference/impact. Both Vines and Carrier hold pseudo-views. Their ideas are only popular/and make an impact in the public.

    The reason why people like Vines and Carrier make a difference in the public, but do not make any difference between experts, is because the majority of people are not familiar with the (for example) history. For example, the ideas of Carrier do not sound crazy, it is not crazy to suggest that Jesus never existed, but if you are familiar with the history, that idea is completely crazy.

    One of the arguments which is often used to show that the Bible is fine with homosexuality is next (many people find this argument convincing): Today the Bible is used to condemn homosexual lifestyle or homosexuals, but ≈150 years ago, the very same Bible was used to support race-based slavery. Over the years everyone come to realize that the Bible is not in favor of race-slavery, and the same thing should happen now. Every Christian (and non-Christian) have to realize that the Bible is not against homosexual behavior.

    This is an argument which many people find convincing, and it sounds reasonable. (among other problems) A major problem with this argument is that it uses pseudo-history. In short, the idea that the Bible is not against homosexuality is a new idea, this idea is few decades old and until a few decades, everyone accepted the fact that the Bible is against homosexuality. That fact was universally accepted. On the other hand, the idea that it was universally accepted that the Bible is in favor of slavery is just historically false. This idea was not universally accepted, this idea was not a mainstream idea, and this idea was not supported by the majority of people, but rather, by a minority of people. The view that the Bible is in favor of race-based slavery was held by a minority of people. I could say more things what is wrong with this argument, but I will stop here.

    *When I say that the Bible is against homosexuality, what I mean is by homosexuality in that content homosexual behavior and not homosexual attraction.
    ** If you are an LGBT person who is religious, My goal is not to make you feel sad. But, I think that it is really important, what is true. Because of that, I'm sorry, but yours Holy Book is against homosexuality.
    ***The reason why I have mentioned Carrier is because many atheists have started to believe that Jesus never existed, and my advice is, don't believe that, because the idea that Jesus never existed is silly.


    If someone believes that the Bible is the word of God, or that the Quran is the word of God (or whatever other book) and if that book says that homosexuality is wrong, I think that it is actually intellectually dishonest and even maybe hypocritical to be fine with the homosexuality, if you believe that God is against that

    If there would be a book which is against heterosexuality, and which condemns the heterosexual lifestyle, and if someone would believe that this book is from God, I might be offended if that person would tell me that I will go to hell if I will live a heterosexual lifestyle, but personally, I would be even more offended if that person would not tell me this, because in my opinion, this would be very intellectually dishonest from that person. What you believe, should affect on how you behave.

    Because often it is much more comfortable to live in happy delusion, than to face up the cruel truth. Imagine that you are Christian or Muslim, and that the book for which you believe is inspired by God says that if you will live a homosexual lifestyle that you will go to hell forever. Probably you wouldn't be too happy because of that.

    The reason why there are religious LGBT people is not because the Bible or Quran are fine with homosexuality, but rather it is because from one side those people don't want to give up their lifestyle, and from the other side they don't want to give up the belief in God, because belief in God gives them comfort, meaning in life, and afterlife.
     
  10. Aberrance

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    I've actually not really thought about it before. I've never had any belief in god. Not when I was young and my grandma would take me to the mandir and I'd learn prayers in Hindi, not when I was in primary school singing hymns about Jesus, not when I learnt about Christianity in secondary. I've just never believed that any kind of god was real. When I was about 13 I went from being agnostic to an atheist and I'm happy with my belief that god isn't real.

    I can completely understand where religious people come from. Having a superior being to put your hope into, believe they're looking over you, watching out for you. It's comforting and that belief honestly keeps some people alive which is amazing to see. I myself will never be a religious or spiritual person though. My mindset is: we live, we work, we die. That's all there is to it. We're not here for a purpose, it's completely random and down to the distance from the sun that life formed on earth and we jut have to make the most of it now we're here.
     
  11. PatrickUK

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    You seem to be making a number of statements and assumptions in this thread about Christian/Islamic scholarship, theological opinion and the nature of religious belief Multiverse and it's really not as black and white as you are making it sound. Very clearly, there are differing opinions and approaches between and within different religious denominations and communities, and we shouldn't suggest otherwise. Nor should we suggest that differences of opinion about scripture are mostly modern in origin. Even if they were, it doesn't make them any less valid because the human understanding of and relationship with God has always been evolving and always will. It's a view that may irritate or offend some people, but it's not difficult to demonstrate the truth in it.

    Nobody is in possession of facts in these matters and it's when we claim to have some grand knowledge of God or base our relationship with God on an entirely literal interpretation of scripture that we have the potential to cause harm, especially to minority groups like the LGBT community. It's more helpful to point out the different ideas and approaches, rather than strike them down as dishonest and delusional ideas.
     
  12. Multiverse

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    I will go step by step in answering the comment of @PatrickUK because I think that his view represents a view of significant number of LGBT people who are religious, and even of some who are not religious.

    If any of my statements or assumptions are wrong, then I would like to hear which my statement or assumption is wrong. I'm ready to change my view at any moment if you present my logical arguments which will show that I am wrong about something.

    Actually, I think it is, there isn't an emotional truth and then the rational/logical truth. There is only one truth. Either the Bible is against homosexual behavior, or the Bible is not against homosexual behavior. There are only 2 options, and the correct answer is true for every single person on the planet.


    There are different opinions on the existence of everything. Some people believe that the moon does not exist. Some people believe that the universe is 6 000 years old. Some people believe that even the sun does not exist. Some people believe that 2+2=5. Some people believe that is justifiable to torture little children. Only because some people have different opinions, that does not mean that we should respect their opinions and accept/or embrace them if they are not based on rational arguments.

    About homosexuality, they are.

    If you believe that God inspired the Bible, then you cannot claim that the Biblical God is in favor of something what is clearly condemned in the Bible. How does that makes any sense? If you believe that x xxx years ago God inspired the Bible or Quran and he said there that he is against homosexuality, why would he wait x xxx years until you are born to decide that, after all, he is not against homosexuality?
    And that would either mean that God lied x xxx years ago, or that he changed his mind

    What is more likely, that all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good being lied or changed his mind about something what you desperately want to be true, or that you are deceived by wishful thinking?


    I think we are in possession of facts on this particular matter. If you believe that the Bible is inspired by God, then we can say what God is thinking, because we can say what the Bible says. If you deny that we can say anything about the Bible, then why stop on homosexuality? Why not deny the fact that the Bible is againt murder, adultery, rape, child abuse, and many other things? Why say only homosexuality, which is also accidentally something what you like.

    Some people will be sad if they read things which I have written... But that does not mean what I'm saying is incorrect. Perhaps what this means is that people are too sensitive, and that people should be more open to accept the truth, even if the truth is cruel.

    I don't think I have ever said that every gay/lesbian who is religious is a dishonest person, quite the contrary, I think the vast majority of gays/lesbians who believe that the Bible is not against homosexual behavior, sincerely believe that their view is correct. I don't doubt their honesty.

    I agree that my way of speaking about this issue on this forum is not the best way. I can be more diplomatic, and if I would be more diplomatic and sensitive on this issue I would convince more people that my view is correct. It is (probable) correct that when you attack someone's belief with a 'full frontal attack', that this person will never change his mind, while on the other side, if you would be more sensitive that you would change this person's mind. The problem is, my goal is not to change anyone's mind on this issue.

    If my goal would be to change people's opinion on this issue, then why I would do it on forum on which majority of people are gay/Bi males, and not on the lesbian forum? If religious gay person changes his mind on the Bible and homosexuality, he can do 3 things, either he can become an atheist (or non-religious), live a life in a celibacy, or 'try to become straight'. First and second is neutral, but what if he decides to do 3.? The more gay males are in the city, the more choice for us who are straight there is. Because of that, if my goal would be to change people's mind on this issue, I would do it on a forum where 80% of people are lesbians, rather than on a forum where 80% people are gay/bi males.

    That was a joke, but in every joke there is some truth. My goal is not to change people's opinion on this particular issue, but rather, my hope is that people will start to think more critically about every information, and my hope is that people will be ready to change their view/but also a behavior if the arguments demand it. This goes for all people: straight, theists, atheists, gays, lesbians, agnostics, people who believe in evolution, people who believe in creationism/intelligent design, people who are in favor of lgbt-rights, and people are against lgbt-rights. I want that everyone is ready to change his/her opinion/behavior on every issue if the evidence/argument demands that.

    For the end, I will ask you my favorite question.

    Is there anything what would convince you that there is no God and is there anything what would convince you that Bible and homosexuality are incompatible?
     
    #52 Multiverse, Jun 24, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
  13. Ram90

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    I believe in a higher power, not necessarily God in singular or plural. I pick and choose what I like to follow about Hinduism and I do so, happily.
     
  14. Reciprocal

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    God doesn't exist to me because I don't want there to be a god or gods. I like to believe that everything is simple enough to be explained by science, after all, we're all just chemicals reacting in different ways. I hope that there is no power above me and I am a product of just evolution.

    God is one of our many delusions: humans by nature are paranoid creatures, that's how we survive, but it causes us to see or experience things that aren't really there.
     
  15. Gaysibling

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    Why would I believe? I have never seen any reason to believe in a god :slight_smile:
     
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