1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why do/don't you believe in God?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Multiverse, Jun 21, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. derVaminoi

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2016
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Because I can never forgive him/her/it if he/she/it exists. He/she/it then created a cruel, despicable game in which the only way to win is to make the other players suffer.

    Also the notion just doesn't make sense to me without any real evidence. I do sometimes wonder if there is more to the universe than meets the eye, and I'm open to that, but I just can't believe there is a conscious, all-powerful god at work.
     
  2. Multiverse

    Multiverse Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Universe
    Gender:
    Male
    Almost everyone answered "There is no evidence for God / I just feel that there is a God."

    To make a discussion a little bit more interesting, here is one question for each group.

    Theists:

    How can you feel that there is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good being while there is so much suffering of innocent people in the world.

    Atheists/agnostics:

    If you don't believe in God, what is your explanation for the fine-tunings? If you believe in a Multiverse, isn't the Multiverse idea (maybe) even more ridiculous idea than the idea of God, given the fact that in principle we will never be able to test this hypothesis directly, and given the fact that you need 'almost' infinite number of other universes.
    In a case you don't believe in a Multiverse, then I'm very, very curious about your explanation for the fine-tuning.
     
    #22 Multiverse, Jun 22, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
  3. Plattyrex

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Flint
    Gender:
    Male
    No. I used to, but lots of really bad stuff happened and mean people hurt me, and if god was real they wouldn't let that happen to me.
     
  4. mirkku

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2016
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Finland
    Gender:
    Female
    Does believing in Diana Prince / WW makes me a theist? If so, light my path, WW. You do you, and I'll look up to it.

    If no, then nah. I mean, does it matter? Why losing time over something that potentially doesn't exist, but maybe does, and ultimately never manifests in any way? Limited time on Earth, better to spend it on valuable thing and actually helping people out / helping yourself out instead of praying for someone/something to do it for you.
     
  5. ThatBorussenGuy

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2015
    Messages:
    2,054
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Between the posts
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    A few people
    No proof that he/she/it exists.

    And no, the bible doesn't count as proof. You can't back it up with substantial, verifiable evidence.
     
    #25 ThatBorussenGuy, Jun 22, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
  6. Formality

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    1,020
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sweden
    We simply don't know where the universe comes from other than that there was the big bang, we don't know what preceded it. There are a lot of interesting hypotheses on the subject. I think the idea of saying "god did it" is infantile when in reality, nobody knows.

    I honestly have no clue where the universe came from other than that there was the big bang. I spend some time pondering the question every now and then because it intrigues me. Especially since the answer to "where does the universe come from?" leads to the question "what does that which preceded our universe come from?". It gives way for an endless cycle of 'this' preceded 'that'. But why would existence even need a beginning? Our concept of reality and time, the way it requires a rigid one way timeline almost has to be wrong, for the universe to make sense. Time is a very interesting thing. Believing that something had to precede the universe assumes that there is a timeline that goes from point A to point B and that it started before the universe came into existence. That everything has to come from something and that existence has to have a beginning. Why do we believe this? Because in our universe that is how everything works. Everything is preceded by something. But how can we say that that is the case with how our universe came into existence?

    I believe our concept of existence and reality overall is scewed because we cannot quite fathom any other way of existence than one with a history, a present and a future. But it probably is more complex than that. Otherwise it would be very strange that the universe would be this stable. How would the energy of the universe remain constant (if we should believe in the Law of Conservation of Energy) unless something exists that is unaffected by time? Otherwise wouldn't energy dissipate?

    Just some thoughts.
     
    #26 Formality, Jun 22, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
  7. Fighter694

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2015
    Messages:
    217
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Bangalore
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    There are probably so many dimensions, so many more things that the human mind can not percieve with the given 5 senses. This is so out of our capabilities that we can not even imagine it. So i speculate that there are so many things beyond our understanding. So I cant make any claims on the existence and lack of existence of god. But i do believe that god isnt anthropocentric or anthropomorphic! Hence I'm agnostic. I dont reject the possibility of an impersonal god. But i cant say with certainity whether there is such a god after all.
    I also understand why a lot of religions around the world gave anthropomorphic forms to god. But i reject their rule books n the type of relationship that they believe we have to have with god. Specially that "oh god is testing us" n stuff like that!
     
    #27 Fighter694, Jun 22, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
  8. Invidia

    Invidia Guest

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2015
    Messages:
    2,802
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Far above the clouds, gazing deep below the Earth
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    I have never had any faith in a deity. Why? Because that's the culture I was born into. Pure. Material. Conditions. I'm also not interested in the discussion about the existence or non-existence of any deity - that is a question of non-interest of mine. However, I do find religion interesting at times from a socio-cultural/academic, or artistic perspective.

    I also don't mind, and can empathize with, views like Eveline^ expressed above of that sense of connectedness. I think God is just one of many metaphors that can be used to describe that connectedness, but it's an idea that keeps surfacing throughout history and across different cultures, and one that I find myself well aligned with. I tend to view it, in my pragmatic sense at least, as something like our expression of our sense of belonging found in a shared story.
     
    #28 Invidia, Jun 22, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
  9. SillyGoose

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2016
    Messages:
    501
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manchester, UK
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    All but family
    No proper plausible evedence..
    I don't believe in unicorns either...
     
  10. paris

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    813
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Bohemia, CZ
    Gender:
    Androgyne
    Gender Pronoun:
    Other
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I see God everywhere, don't you?
     
  11. Austin

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Messages:
    3,172
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    No evidence a god exists, and no evidence a god doesn't exist. I don't believe in any of the gods of the human religions, but I feel in this big universe, and this mysteriousness we call life, there is a lot we don't really know, and a lot our human minds cannot comprehend. So, it's completely possible there is some higher power we don't know about. Cue the existential crisis.

    ---------- Post added 23rd Jun 2016 at 04:03 AM ----------

    Fine tuning? (I don't know enough about the multiverse hypothesis (?) to comment on that.)
     
  12. Kasey

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2013
    Messages:
    6,385
    Likes Received:
    162
    Location:
    The Commonwealth of Massachusetts
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I believe in something. You might as well call it God. Something caused it all to start. What was around before the big bang? Whatever it was can be something that is god. I do however doubt the whole method that organized religion presents it as.

    I can't believe in a god that is representative of vengeance and condemnation. I can't be part of a religion that decries basically anyone who doesn't fit their model. I believe that Jesus was a real person and was a great man, but I also think he would be appalled at the state of the world and the intolerance and outright hatred shown towards many.
     
  13. heyguyswhatsup

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2014
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sydney-ish
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    I'm agnostic.

    With the grounds that religion stands on, it is too easy to be proven. Religion is said to exist more spiritually: just pray enough, and thanks to the placebo effect, you may hear God or feel "the Holy Spirit". But how do we know that it isn't actually God?

    It's little questions like these that I'm not sure on. Also, the fact that scripture is so easily bent out of shape to suit any agenda makes me lose hope for any true knowledge of God. Trust me: I recently read an article that analysed passages "against" homosexuality as concluding that they actually aren't talking about homosexuality. I just don't know.
    I can answer this question from both sides, even though I'm only an agnostic. Theists answer this first question by saying that "God gave us the gift of free will", implying that denying us free will would mean God taking away our freedom.
    You could also say that God wants to test us, in a world of good and evil, that we will come to him and trust in him. If we knew only good, how can we show that we love him without even having a choice? I don't agree with this reasoning, but it's not about opinions.

    As an agnostic, my explanation for the fine-tunings of this universe are either known or unknown. Like my open-minded belief in religion, my open-minded belief in Science is that either a God/higher power fine-tuned our universe or they came about through currently-unknown scientific means that I'll give science time to discover. Science surprises us everyday: why deny any possibilities?

    The multiverse theory doesn't sound as ridiculous as a belief in a higher power: they both sound as theoretical as one another.
    (If we wanted to argue ridiculous, let's ask civilians from 1,000 years ago on their thoughts towards us evolving from a common ancestor to monkeys. Despite our surety now, it hadn't even become accredited then: ridiculousness is invalid.)
    I'm as open-minded to the idea of the multiverse, as I am to the existence of a God or Gods. The multiverse theory sounds pretty exciting, though.
     
    #33 heyguyswhatsup, Jun 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2016
  14. Libertino

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2016
    Messages:
    1,195
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    This Side of the Enlightenment
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    "Fine-tuning" refers to the fact that the conditions of the universe (i.e. the state of gravity and stars and other constants) are in a "perfect" state to allow for the existence of the Earth and humans. If the conditions were only slightly different by a miniscule percentage, there might have been no Earth or life on Earth. Creationists assert that only an intelligent designer could've allowed for these stable life-providing conditions. The Multiverse theory is an alternate explanation that asserts that there are multiple parallel universes with imperfect conditions, and only this one has the conditions that allow for human life. There's about as much evidence for the Multiverse as there is for God. So the question of "how/why are we here?" continues to remain unanswered :eusa_doh:
     
    #34 Libertino, Jun 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2016
  15. BelleLey

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2014
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    france
    Gender:
    Female
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Personnaly i'm really down to earth, i believe in what i see, in science. It just seems impossible for me to believe in such things.
     
  16. Tyler hereforu

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    NL
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    As a Buddhist, for me, the question is not about believing or not believing in god/gods, but if god/gods are almighty and if we have to follow them. The Buddhist answer is clearly no. Man is responsible for his own fate. Karma :slight_smile:
     
  17. Daydreamer1

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    5,680
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Pretty much what everyone else said; I don't see enough physical evidence to show that there is a higher power--and the Watch Maker's argument doesn't count.
     
  18. Multiverse

    Multiverse Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Universe
    Gender:
    Male
    Can I get a link of that article? One thing which you always need to have in mind is that when you desperately want something to be true, if you desperately want that God exists, or that God does not exists, or that religions (for example: Christianity/Bible) are not against homosexuality, you should be very very sceptical when you examine the arguments, because otherwise you will be deceived by wishful thinking.

    I don't know any person who doubts the fact that the Abrahamic religions are against homosexuality, who is not LGBT or who does not have a sibling or a good friend who is LGBT(I'm sure there are people who do not meet this criteria, but I just don't know anyone).
    I know that some people are saying to others that the Bible and Quran are not against homosexuality, but personally they don't believe that, and the reason why they are deceiving other people is because they believe that if they admit that the Bible or Quran condemn the homosexual lifestyle in every opportunity, that religious people will be against "equal rights".

    In fact, "Gay theology" has many similarities with Creationism. People on both sides are desperate to believe that their wishful position is true. Reasonable evidence for both is equally non-existent, and not only that, but all evidences which we have points to another direction. People from both sides are deceived from internet websites and books written by Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, Matthew Vines & others, in fact, the only difference is that one side get's their 'knowledge' from Answers in Genesis website, and the other one gets their knowledge from Human Rights Campaign website. People on both sides use either pseudo-science or pseudo-history, which have no room in any serious discussion. People on both sides are somewhat afraid that if we admit to ourself that "their pseudo-view is wrong" that people will become 'immoral' ("Elite people" from Gay Theology are afraid that if they admit that Bible and Quran are against homosexuality, that religious people will be against "gay rights" and "Elite people" from Creastionst side are afraid that if we admit that Universe and Earth are not 6 000 years old, that people will become immoral). Both sides use 'scary' tactics to scare people and emotional arguments... And both sides ridiculed by sophisticated people in their fields. I could name more similarities, but I will stop here.

    And by the way, a few more things which are somewhat popular in the culture, but do not have room in any serious discussion. The earth is 6 000 years old. Intelligent design is true. Earth is flat. Jesus never existed. The moon does not exist. (all these views are more or less equally false.)

    * I usually wouldn't go into discussion about Gay Theology, nor that was my intention when I joined the forum here, but the reason why I decided to write about "Gay Theology" now is because many people are very very sensitive and against free speech.

    Since I spent a 'few' sentences on "Bible/religion and homosexuality, " I will write a few sentences on the fine-tunings, because I see that some people are not familiar with that (I will try to be short)

    Our universe is defined by the set of numbers which are very very special. If the universe would be defined by different numbers, the life of any kind would not be possible, because there would be no planets, no atoms/no chemistry, no galaxies etc. The law of nature which is most popular is gravity. If the strength of gravity would be just a little bit different and by little bit I mean different in 1 in 10 to the power of 40, none of us would exist. Other things have also been fine-tuned. If the dark energy would be different in 1 part of 10 to the power of 120, either the universe would expand too fast and there would be no possibility for galaxies, stars and planets form, or the universe would expand too slowly. If you are amazed by those numbers, you have a correct emotional reaction. BUT, there is something what is even more fine-tuned, it's so fine-tuned that it is insane. The Fine-tuning of the early universe is tuned to the 1 part in 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 120 For us to exists, those things have to be fine-tuned:

    Gravity: 10^40
    Dark Energy: 10^120
    (1:100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000)
    Fine-tuning of early universe: 10^10^120 (This is number with 1200 zeros after is 1)

    Also 'many' other things have to be also fine-tuned (for example: weak & strong nuclear force), but the examples which I give are the most popular examples.

    I have seen that some people have said that they don't believe in something what they cannot see, I'm sorry to say, but you will have to start to believe things which you cannot see. Because, as B. Carr pointed out: "If you don't want God, you better have a multiverse" (Although there are 5 logical explanations for the fine-tunings, only God and the Multiverse really explain fine-tuning of our universe)

    Among other problems of the Multiverse hypothesis, one problem is that in principle, we will never be able to see other universes, in principle we will never be able to test other universes directly. Therefore, you will never be able to see them.

    The second thing is that you need a very, very large number of universes, 'almost' infinite number of other universes. If there is 'almost' infinite or truly infinite number of other universes, the strength of gravity would be different in each one of them, and only in those universes in which the strength of gravity is exactly what we see, would galaxies be formed and planets would form.

    Under this view, the reason why our universe is so finely-tuned for us is not because God decided to create a universe because he want to send people in the hell or heaven, but rather, if our universe would not be so finely-tuned for life, we wouldn't be here asking the question (Antrophic principle does not work without Multiverse hypothesis).

    If there is an infinite number of other universes, that means that there are universes in which everyone is straight, and universes in which everyone is gay. There are universes in which Nazi Germany won the second world war, and there are universes in which your net worth is $100 billion. There are universes in which you are happy every day, and there are universes in which you are abused on a daily basis.

    And finally I will say my thoughts on atheism and theism.

    Yes, if atheism (naturalism) is true: there is no life after death, there is no meaning of the universe, there is no good and no evil, there is no meaning in life, there is probably no such thing as love, everything what we do is completely meaningless and there is no human free will (if you believe in naturalism, you cannot hope to have any free will). The universe is cruel, meaningless and the future of us and the future of the universe is miserable. And that might seem depressive, but I think that under theism things are even worse. Because if naturalism/atheism is true, at least we are not subject to some divine being in the sky, who created universe only because of us, who watches us what we do every second, and who will send people who do not obey his rules in the hell not for 1 year or 2 years, but (probably) for whole eternity.

    After I told you good news, have a nice day, hehe :kiss: (*hug*)
     
    #38 Multiverse, Jun 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2016
  19. LostLion

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2014
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    United States of 'Murica.
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I believe in G-d, because I believe there is a omnipresent force that watches over people. But, I use G-d more as a personal guiding light, I guess you can say.

    Of course, bad things still happen and will always happen because G-d gave us free will, but that doesn't disprove or prove anything. Spirituality and religious conviction isn't supposed to read like a fairytale and it's not supposed to be some sort of pure escape valve from reality.

    There are many religious or somewhat religious people who lead intelligent and normal lives. Just as there are many non-religious, secular people who lead intelligent and normal lives.

    I think this discussion is important to have for every individual person. I think even most religious people have had some internal questioning of religion and G-d.
     
  20. Formality

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    1,020
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sweden
    I don't fully agree with you on your view on the multiverse theory. We still don't understand quantum mechanics good enough to the point where we can with certainty claim that if other universes exist, we can't observe them. If we understand the very basic mechanisms that govern existence, we could perhaps harness them in a way that makes it possible to observe other universes. Maybe it's a bit farfetched, but who knows? I sure don't know, and I don't quite think we (humans) are qualified to rule out the possibility for observing other universes just yet.

    I also don't think that way of looking at the multiverse theory as it a possibility for any kind of universe to exist is right, such as a universe where there's only gay people on planet earth. I believe the universe/universes are deterministic in the way that from the moment the system is set in motion the outcome is already determined by the numbers that govern it's existence. What this means for the multiverse theory and for the possibility for any weird stupid kind of universe to exist is that, any weird stupid universe can't exist. The parameters, values like: the weight of an electron. Or what you refer to as the "fine tuning", is what determines how the universe will look. I don't believe there are factors that can lead to any possible outcome. There is an infinite number of ways for the universe to come into existence with an infinite number of special starting values. But this doesn't mean that any universe will turn out to have one planet with weird creatures that are made of paper and walk around like live origami. I mean, come on.

    With this said, I believe, that even if our universe was reset and the big bang happened again, we would have the exact same outcome. With me sitting here typing this just like I am now. (unless there is outside influence from other universes)

    However I might be wrong about the universe being deterministic. Obviously I don't, nor does anyone else know enough about quantum mechanics and the fundamentals of the universe to say so. To me it just makes sense that the universe would be deterministic, not necessarily in the sense that the universe is completely governed by it's own fundamental parameters, since there might be outside influence from other universes.

    Just how I like it. No meaning, no free will. I mean there is no objective way of measuring love or good and evil. I would probably still argue that they exist. Or I don't know, these subjects confuse me. Even if I don't believe we have free will, I still feel like I have free will because our brains are so crazy complex. The human brain is the most complex (known) structure in the universe. It is both weird and amazing and beautiful.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.