What is "Toxic Masculinity"

Every example I provided directly above this that included women fits this category. Student example and sexual assault example is saying men aren’t capable of controlling themselves around women and they are responsible for the actions of males in that regard. Over the top behavior: that a man can and should be able to sexualize any female at any time he choose unless she actively blocks it in how she dress/acts/behaves. The work place example reinforces the idea that males egos are super fragile and they shouldn’t be working under females both are super toxic. Women being shamed for being sexual through it being weaponized, while males are celebrated for similar or even more aggressive sexual behaviors.

Toxic masculinity effects everyone no matter gender identity, every can show traits of it and be harmed by it. It definitely encompasses all the things mentioned about dumbing down masculinity and what it is to be a man, but in my opinion it’s reach goes so much further than just that.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Those behaviors that are off bounds can and should be identified by exactly what the behavior is and not by an umbrella term that makes it seem masculinity is bad. And, certainly, those behaviors listed above are wrong. I have been in workplace situations where some men pushed themselves on some women a little too strongly and didn't take no for an answer all that easily. In most situations, they were fired, got disciplined, or got the hint. In one situation, it was the owner of a company but the company collapsed for other reasons. Overall, it has been rare in places I've worked. Just about as rare as women overreaching the bounds with men they were interested in. Keep in mind that that happens, too.

However, toxic masculinity has extended into calling out men for just being too masculine, too. Years ago, there was a thread talking about what people found objectionable and one of them was public urination. In a city, it's objectionable, unsanitary, and even illegal. In the woods, I expressed that it found it okay. Others did not. It did not change how I act when I'm in the wilderness, not that I'm there all that much. But, now, when I urinate in the forest with no one around, I think of that thread. There are different degrees of and contexts for masculinity. I'm going to decide for myself how masculine I want to be ... or not be.

 

Toxic masculinity is not the same thing as masculinity is toxic. I’m not sure any other way to say this. I wish I could agree to disagree but I just can’t. Mainly because I find masculinity sexy lol there’s nothing wrong with being masculine at all. There’s nothing wrong with being feminine. There’s nothing wrong with being a balance of the two or really not exempting either... these ideas don’t line up with toxic masculinity which says masculinity is superior period.

Unrelated... public urination??? Well like you said “public” as in city or an area where there are people it’s not cool and very disrespectful. I live in the country and just engaged in this objectionably act 30 minutes ago hahahaha I mean it’s kinda a way of life for country people at times lol. If the bathrooms are occupied you use the one nature provided hahahaha that sounds awful but it’s so true!

 

For me I think it's about policing other people's masculinity but also about the notion that women need to be protected. I think it's great to be considerate and helpful. I think it's very different to think that women somehow need that in a way that men don't. I think it easily bleeds into women need to be told what to think and eventually into women need to have their decisions made for them. I think in a very real way chivalry is the other side of the coin of rape culture.

 

I don't think you understand what toxic masculinity is!

Like @I'mStillStanding said, Toxic masculinity is not the same thing as masculinity is toxic, I am also not sure why you associate urinating in the woods as something ''masculine'' or determining your ''masculinity'', I have definitely urinated in the woods and other places before when no other solution were available and it never felt like a gendered thing to do. As for sexual harassment, it's toxic behaviours but it's nothing to do with toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity is giving a definition to the word ''masculine'', when there shouldn't be. Because every male is masculine by definition.

 

Ah, such an interesting statement and oh do I agree.

Most of the time '' chivalry'' stems from underestimating women and their abilities and taking the option from them before they even get a shot at it, because ''why would a 'lady' do such a thing when there are men around to do it for her.''

it's a mystery how a woman would be able to survive more than 24 hours without a man around to help her and protect her.

(probably the reason why lesbians are a rare specy )

 

I went to a NoMore presentation about five years ago. Some of what I was understanding is toxic includes possessive attitudes, rather than accountability/protection/compassion. Control (which can manifest as bullying, domestic violence, abusive behaviors) too.

Using brute force to lash out, when vulnerability is scaring you. Instead of crying or admitting you are scared.

And yes, limiting what is acceptable for a guy, like me being teased (gently, but still teasing) by my friends for wanting to use a sewing machine and make stuff. Toxic masculinity was ignoring the Home Econ teacher’s instructions and deciding to put the Jello box and water in the blender set to “liquify.” (Ignore female authority, and get away with “boys will be boys”).

I remember reading a counter-cultural story about an American man in a Japanese train, deciding how to “teach a lesson” to a loud drunk guy who just got on. He was about to start punching. But the old Japanese man sitting in the same train took a different tack, and acted like the best friend in the world, eventually the loud drunk guy laying down and being comforted by the elder. A different way to disarm a potential threat, one that solved things more win-win, which toxic masculinity tends to run roughshod over instead.

 

All of this... there’s studies about the influence of toxic masculinity and its affect on college age binge drinking and sexual assaults connected into them. I mean I can provide judge statements basically supporting the boys will boys for a sexual assault, school dress codes putting responsibility on girls to control teen boys thoughts, I mean the last three years the news has been flooded with stories about how this issue is much bigger than just man up. The pressure to conform is horrible and huge part, but it’s not the only part.

 

My comment regarding chivalry often stemming from men underestimating women comes from the fact that most of the men who are ''chivalrous'' wouldn't do the same for men, and if so why? I believe if someone genuinely believe women are at the same level as men then there is no reason why there should be a difference of treatment between the two, nor this idea that one needs more protection than the other.

 

@Nickw I think every relationship is different. It’s not a bad thing to open car doors, hold doors open, etc. I mean at least I don’t think so. I’d be totally fine with a guy doing this for me if he asked me out... I mean I would do it for a guy I asked out. But some things are just crazy like my sister... she gets so pissed when a server gives my brother in law the check. Most people wouldn’t notice this thing but this bothers her soooooo much. I’ve heard her say to a server before, “you so realize women are capable of paying the bill right?” Granted he did ask what the lady was having and looked at us, made several comments that were a bit off (I’m sure he thought they were just cute), and the check was just the cherry on top for her. Sometimes I feel bad for my poor brother in law hahahaha I mean the entire time they dated if he called her baby her response was always... baby’s got a name!

I’ve rambled.... my point is just that being the “male servant” lol as you put isn’t bad... but I have no idea what rigging gear even means lol however I feel strong and I like to use that strength to help others in my way, and it feels right to me and I’m not masculine I’m definitely in between and lean more feminine...

By the way thank you for this post. It really has had this on my mind today and I’ve been talking about it on social media. A post is going around about McDonalds and the boy or girl toy question... this question sucked for me cause I wanted the girl toy more than half the time. But I didn’t get it always. Mom would most of the time, my grandma and grandpa normally always... but my dad and pretty much everyone else never... not related but just appreciate the conversation

 

Yes. Both men and women can be toxic, though. Looked at another way, what is in evidence when family systems are considered toxic? It would be an abuse of power and the trespassing of boundaries. Toxic individuals, and toxicity as it relates to gender, would be much the same.

I see what you're saying. However, more so today then when I was growing up, there is some pushback on behavior that would be considered too masculine for men and too feminine for women. Some people want people to be more off the endpoints when, for those people, that could be their baseline.

 

Well I’m not 100% sure what you mean here. I know you’ve talked about feeling pressure for not being gay enough and such... I find that so interesting because were I am at I’m kinda too gay... I don’t get to go out like I’d like, I don’t get to dress like I’d like, I don’t get to wear makeup like I’d like... and yet I’m still almost too gay. Masc for Masc is everywhere on dating apps and that’s the ones who choose to be nice about it. It seems the ones who aren’t masc for masc are looking for guys who are into cross dressing. Two guys in the last couple weeks have asked me if I’d do that and it’s a no for me. No judgement... just I wanna feel sexy when I’m with a man and while I feel sexy in some more feminine clothes it’s not what they have in their minds for a crossing dressing experience.

Similar to what @Tightrope said... there seems to be an issue with the idea that some of us are basic gays lol I mean that the best way possible. I fit nearly every stereotype there is (the exception would be the fitness one and I’m trying my damnedest to get there) that people list about gay males... I don’t fit into them because I have conformed since coming out or whatever. It’s just my baseline. I honestly think the more people see people who are on opposite ends be friends there wouldn’t be as much pushback for any of us. But the more we keep our friendship groups looking exactly like ourself, the more people are going to think negatively about the things that makes us different. If everyone around you looks like you, loves like you, prays like you, etc. it’s time to branch out and diversify your friendship portfolio.

 

This isn’t a masculine trait though. It’s a human one. How many moms have done the exact same thing for there children? And it’s not just moms obviously, just an example. The instinct to protect those around you is hard wired into people no matter the gender...

This is so important. You attach your self worth, value and pride to these things... so how do you measure my worth, value, and how much pride I should have in myself? I know you don’t look negatively on me obviously... I mean you’re one of the first people I talked to on here. But knowing these are the standards you judge yourself by does make me feel insecure a bit on how you’d judge me irl... I’m just saying. I won’t ever forget I was working in a college class as a peer leader and I made a joke about me being fat (a bad habit I still have), and after class one female student asked could she speak with me. I could tell she was upset. She asked, “do you think I’m fat? I mean do you think I’m a whale like you called yourself?” I about died... of course not I thought she was beautiful and sweet and loved her style. I told her absolutely not... she told me I need to be aware of how harsh I judge myself because people around will think I use the same standards to judge them. I mean why would I be kinder to someone else than I am myself.

It’s way too simple of an answer, but toxic masculinity. I’m not being a smart ass... but there’s several things it’s caused. The lie that femininity all looks the same like masculinity which puts women in very narrow spaces that some don’t want to be in, that makes you less than those who veer more masculine, but woman who aren’t feminine are looked down on too because they are viewed as aggressive and such and this also causes some people to respond violently when called feminine because they take pride in their strength and not being the delicate wall flower some associate with femininity (my sister would fit this one lol).

*I know these weren’t directed to me so sorry for jumping in and again these are just my opinions.

 

Flamboyant.... It’s been a long day and I stared at the word feminine and was like that’s not the word I’m wanting to use hahahahaha it was flamboyant... Being in the south the only thing flashy for men are the trucks lol so I understand fully.

Now I’ve not been lucky enough to go to any events like that, however I’ve heard that a lot from friends here too. I think I’d love it and be in gay heaven. But I have gay friends who I wouldn’t want to go with. It’s not their scene and I’d be uncomfortable because I know they wouldn’t be enjoying themselves... I’d rather skip it and do something we could both enjoy.

I know I’ve seen guys come out and go through a period of exploration where they do a lot of things they never did. They tend to find a happy median from where they were and the most extreme version of the exploration. I mean for some guys they never got to explore that as a kid and so they are doing it when ever they accept themselves... it may seem odd but when you think about it it’s totally understandable.

I think you’re as comfortable in your personality and interests as I am in mine. I have said it a thousand times but I’ve always been flamboyant. I’ve always been into hair and makeup, just didn’t get to do it on myself much lol. I’ve always been who I am now. When I get out of this area I’ll get to explore some things that I’ve dabbled in here like clothes and make up (I hate a wallet you put in your pocket so I actually have used a wristlet for the last 2 years before that I had a wallet key chain since I was 16 that I carried). But all in all I don’t see there being too much of a change from who I was when I was 6 and demanding the cheerleaders give me the same panther paw as the girls with the glitter for pep rallies.

It’s weird that the thing that made you second guess your sexuality never played into my thoughts on mine... it was just me... I hated being bullied for it but I didn’t know any other way to be and refused to change even when I was married I acted the same way.

I’ve always felt you had a ton of respect for me... even when I felt like I gave you reasons to tell me to bugger off. I too hold my self to near impossible standards... actually something I’m working on in therapy.

 

I came across an article from the Atlantic related to this topic:
www.theatlantic.com/video/index/573877/male-socialization/
The video is an interesting viewpoint from the perspective of a guy who went through F2M transition. He talks about what he lost of his humanity.