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Was it rape?

Discussion in 'Physical & Sexual Health' started by Srawrs, Aug 6, 2018.

  1. Srawrs

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    So I know this is a LBGT forum, and this isn’t really a LGBT matter, but it’s the only place I know to go to. I am a female bisexual, this situation just happened to be with a man. I guess I just need to type out my thoughts and get some feedback.
    I had my first date on Saturday night with this guy I had been talking to online. We had been talking for a while and he was always very sweet and romantic and seemed like a great guy. I was so excited to finally meet him. But the date was really weird and I keep playing it back in my head and something about it just seems wrong. He came to pick me up, I let him in, and right away he grabbed me and started kissing me. We had talked dirty and sexted before, but this wasn’t romantic or expected. He then called me a dirty whore and grabbed my throat really hard, to the point where it still hurts and has bruises. He shoved me down, pulled my panties off, and started having sex with me. He also bit my chest pretty hard, I have teeth marks that seem kinda deep. I never at any point said no or protested in anyway even though I felt weird, because I felt like I owed him. It didn’t really feel good to me, but it didn’t necessarily hurt either. After he came in me he got up and said ‘okay let’s go to dinner’. We went to dinner and it was awkward. He wouldn’t look at me and we didn’t really talk at all. Then he got a text that he had to go and I never heard from him again. I started sobbing as soon as I got back and took a really long hot shower because I felt dirty and used. I felt like he never really liked me and only used me for sex, and that he was right and I am just a dirty whore. My mind was reeling for a while and I couldn’t really process what had happened, I just felt numb and like everything was spinning around me for the next couple days. Tonight as I was thinking about it, it suddenly hit me, was is rape? I mean, I did want to sleep with him, not at that moment, but at some point in the future I was planning on it. I never stopped him or told him I didn’t want to. I lead him on. I still went to dinner with him afterwards. So it’s perfectly conceivable that he had no idea there was anything wrong with the situation. But then why do I feel like this? Why do I feel so dirty and disgusting and used?
     
  2. Destin

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    Technically no it wasn't rape because you never said no to it or resisted, it was just an aggressive hookup with a rude stranger. You were definitely used unfortunately. You shouldn't feel like you owe anyone sex if you don't want it though. You probably feel bad about it because it wasn't what you wanted even though you didn't say it, and he was disrespectful by treating you that way. Sorry you went through that.
     
  3. DirectionNorth

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    I hope I don't sound too fake when I say I'm sorry that happened. And as tough as this is to say, it was what you think it was, he went ahead without your clear consent, he was brutal and awful, on so many levels, that was just not okay. And it doesn't matter you could see yourself consenting later on, etc, this was clearly nonconsensual. Married couples who have had 100% consensual for 10 years or more, if one person pushes or forces the other into something that there was not clear consent, that would be rape/assault as well. And, this is on society, just because you didn't say the word No does not make it consent, only a clear yes/consenting makes it consent. The expression needs to be changed from "no means no" to "only a clear yes means yes."

    Please look up or even contact the police about your options in your state, etc. I am in no way faulting you for not doing so sooner, alot of times it takes time to even process it, much less work through alot of things right now. But reach out to the police or, if that's overwhelming right now, I suggest anonymously call a hotline like RAINN and they'll definitely tell you options or where to take it from there.

    I hope I'm not coming off as condescending or harsh in any way, I just really urge you to at least anonymously call a hotline, again RAINN or others(say a different name than yours, and you might even be able to block your number if that makes you more comfortable) and take it from there.

    Are you seeing a therapist now? Either for this or other things? Although it might be a scary step(and I'm not usually one to push therapy), if or whenever you do feel ready, I suggest finding a therapist who specifically deals with trauma and assault.
     
  4. DirectionNorth

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    @Destin , it was clearly nonconsensual though, which definitely classifies as assault, if not rape, just because someone doesn't say no. Passed out girls don't say no either, but it's definite rape if someone takes advantage of that and has sex with them.

    I am sorry, I know I sound really heated, and I know you mean well, of course. Please take just the gist of what I said without the emotion.
     
    #4 DirectionNorth, Aug 6, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  5. Destin

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    The guy was never told that though so I'm not really sure if it can be considered non-consensual when there was no outward resistance to it, especially considering they had already been sexting etc. the guy probably thought it was totally fine and romantic or whatever and with no one telling him otherwise why would he think anything was non-consensual at the time? Him wanting to go to dinner after is a pretty good sign he thought it was ok too, nobody is going to rape someone then go to dinner with them, they'd want to get away from the crime as fast as possible.

    I know it's not the politically correct thing to say but honestly the whole clear and consenting yes before sex thing is a bit ridiculous to set the standard of what is and isn't rape. Sex just doesn't work like that, no one is going to stop in the middle of hooking up to ask permission, it would kill the moment immediately. Personally I don't think it can be considered anything more than aggressive sex if the person never said no to it (with exceptions for people who are passed out etc. of course).

    This situation sounds like a misunderstanding where one person thought they were being spontaneous or romantic while the other didn't see it that way but never actually said it. Still a very unfortunate situation though.

    Edit:

    Just saw your edit - Yea I guess it can be considered assault, but again the lines are a bit blurry there between assault and just rough sex. No problem about it being heated, I get that it's a sensitive topic, all good.
     
    #5 Destin, Aug 6, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  6. signmypapyrus

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    I would recommend seeking out a therapist.

    Be sure to look into RAINN which is a wonderful online source for details about consent and rape. Just because we don’t say no doesn’t meant we consent.

    Lastly, you are NOT dirty and you did nothing wrong.
     
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  7. Loves books

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    . If you didn't give your consent before it happened then it is considered rape or sexual assault by the law. People are supposed to ask consent about kissing, touching and especially sex.If you didn't say yes then he broke the law. You didn't do anything wrong he did. Just because you didn't say no doesn't make what he did okay. I think you should consider seeing a therapist it might help you work through your feelings.
     
  8. tystnad

    tystnad Guest

    hey destin, i know you don’t necessarily mean bad but these are some really dangerous myths that you’re reproducing. these are actually the reason that so many people (not just women) do not get taking seriously when reporting a rape, and even get blamed for what happened when they really are the victims and are often severely traumatised after (especially if they do not get help immediately after).
    rape is all about power relations and when someone is being raped, it is terrifying to resist, your brain and body often shut down to protect you and as a result it becomes literally impossible to defend yourself. even if you don’t shut down, you’re essentially helpless, a rapist is in an incredibly powerful position (please do not underestimate the power and impact of sexual violence) and sometimes not resisting seems the only way to get it over with quickly - which is a horrible fate to have to accept. going to dinner after is something that can very much derive from those power relations and fear makes you do things that may seem crazy to those not involved. not resisting is NOT the same as consenting. consent isn’t always a literal, spoken yes, but it is always WANTING to participate in the act and making that CLEAR. not resisting =/= wilfully participating. generally, the difference between participating because you enjoy it and participating because you feel like you’re left absolutely no choice and resisting might just make things even worse, is one that someone who genuinely cares picks up on, but a rapist is willing to ignore during the rape because they are not concerned with the wellbeing of whoever they are raping at all. the fact that this person disappeared afterwards is, to me, a pretty good sign he knows something he did wasn’t right.

    OP, i agree with the others to contact an organisation about this. unfortunately it is sometimes difficult to get rapists prosecuted but please don’t see that as a reason not to report it to the police. this is not your fault - you did not lead him on, and just because you would have wanted sex with him some other time doesn’t mean he had the right to just do whatever he wanted without your consent right now. consent needs to happen every single time you have sex. but perhaps even more importantly, seek out a therapist if you can (organisations that focus on sexual assault can probably guide you towards ones that are specialising in this) because what happened, as well as the process that follows, can be incredibly traumatising and it’s better to get help now than later.
     
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  9. YeahpIdk

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    I wrote this whole thing but I actually totally agree with the person above me.
     
    #9 YeahpIdk, Aug 7, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
  10. Chip

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    Anyone who says it isn't rape because it wasn't communicated clearly doesn't understand consent. Consent is affirmative. A lack of refusal to participate does not create consent. In this case, the perpetrator did not seek consent, took action on his own without the affirmative consent of the OP, who did not want this to happen. Thus, it absolutely was an unwanted sexual encounter. Depending on the state, it would be rape. In any case, it would at least be assault.

    It's really, really important that we understand consent. Many men have been brought up to believe that if the girl (or guy) doesn't say no, that consent is implied. But that simply isn't true, and people have gone to jail for less. It's also just a really screwed up thing to do.

    Men of character and integrity will always seek consent.

    OP: I am so sorry this happened to you, and I want you to know that you did not do anything wrong, nor are you at fault because you didn't voice your objection. As I said above, consent is affirmative, and the person with you did not seek consent. It is unlikely you would get rape charges to stick, simply because the system is stacked against those who are assaulted, but there's no question that what you experienced was unwanted sexual aggression, and depending on the specific state, it would be classified as rape.

    Destin, you really, really, really need to learn and understand the dynamics of consent. I suspect because of the sexist environment you grew up in, you see things differently, but your viewpoint isn't legally defensible.
     
    #10 Chip, Aug 7, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
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  11. Nimmer

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    It was rape. Because you were planning to have sex with him at some point, doesn't mean that right there, when it happened, you wanted it.

    Consent is saying "yes". Remaining silent doesn't mean consenting.

    We have that video in France (it's only in French I think), from a TV series. Husband and wife, the wife has been raped, lawyer is in kitchen with both of them and basically saying "lady, you didn't fight or scream, one could almost believe you consented, that's not helping us". At that moment the husband grabs a knife, put it at the lawyer's throat, and demonstrates that in a situation when you feel threatened, even though rationally obviously the husband wouldn't kill the lawyer in his kitchen, the amygdala takes over, and you may not be able to fight—just to keep quiet and do everything to look as small as possible until the threat goes away, and hopefully doesn't kill you.

    (If anyone wants to check it, even in French: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/sante/s...battent-elles-pas-lors-d-un-viol_2843697.html )
     
  12. scouse

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    What an awful, awful man. I'm really sorry you've been put through this. Just because something may be difficult to prove within legal structures, or even get to a charge, doesn't mean it hasn't happened and hasn't caused harm. Further, rough sex doesn't equal one person doing whatever they want to the other without any consideration for boundaries and consent. This guys behaviour was totally unacceptable, he behaved like an animal and he had no right to do any of that to you. It was not your fault at all, please don't blame yourself. If you met him via a dating site I would really think about flagging him to admin.
     
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  13. Destin

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    Growing up that way does probably have something to do with it, but what I wrote is also based on my current experiences. I've had 3 encounters similar to the original post in the last few months. I meet people from apps sometimes (Niagara is alright with it) and some of those people are aggressive - all 3 times it was like the original post, showed up and within like a minute they were pushing themselves onto me with a throat grab or getting pushed down thing and insults included. Is it fun getting treated like that? No, not really, but I don't feel raped either. Disrespected and taken advantage of yes, but not raped because I didn't tell them not to even though I didn't give them permission or consent to it either. Like I mentioned to you awhile ago, I was legit raped when I was 13 and I very much said no to it and resisted it most of the times it happened back then, so it just doesn't seem the same to me now compared to that.
     
  14. signmypapyrus

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    But it’s important to realize there are people who are raped who are incapable of consenting (people with disabilities come to mind). Also how we process trauma forces the brain to consolidate and compartmentalize an experience so it can deal with it either in the moment or at some point (ie the subconscious). Just because Person A’s brain didn’t process it as assault doesn’t mean Person B’s brain won’t. A lot of factors (genetics, upbringing, etc) play into how the brain experiences and processes a situation, especially trauma. It’s why we can’t project our own experiences and expectations of our experiences onto someone else’s situation. And I’m not even getting into legal jargon and definition.
     
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  15. Nimmer

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    Destin -- Sorry to hear you had to go through this. :frowning2:

    That's precisely part of the whole issue: that when people don't (or can't) openly say "no", it's immediately assumed it means "yes". (Well, for some, even when you say "no", they still understand it as "yes" anyway...) Especially in such situations where there's an element of "threat", even a smaller one, people have many different ways of reacting, and whether one starts to fight or remains "passive" are just two facets of the same thing, a.k.a "let's do whatever I can to avoid getting hurt even more". This is processed very quickly in a brain, so quickly that the logical choice just gets squeezed out.

    All that stuff about "she led me on" or "he never said no" or "well they should've been more vocal about it", it's convenient excuses to me. (Not necessarily consciously made excuses, mind you. The rape culture is strong in many societies, alas, including in my own country. -_-)
     
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  16. DirectionNorth

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    One of the many reasons I'm doing everything to leave this crap country- "didn't say no, so I guess it's ok" "she's asking for it by wearing that" "i went through something so everyone is the same as me and i don't consider something bad, so neither should anyone else" "consent is bullshit, it ruins the mood", blah blah! I think touching someone where they're not okay/might be triggered ruins the mood a bit more than taking 3 seconds to ask if you can do something and the person saying go for it or not, geez!!!!!!!
     
  17. CuriousLad

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    I'm not familiar with the technicalities of your state's law so I can't comment on the legality of it but there was clearly a lack of explicit consent. Yes, you agreed to meet up with him, you sexted with him and even invited him to your home. But you never initiated sex and even if you did, you had the right to say no at absolutely any point during it. And your partner should stop at that very moment. That's how powerful consent should ideally be. Will you be able to get this man convicted? Given the abysmally low conviction rate for rape, that's pretty unlikely. Although I hate categorizing rape, what happened to you would be difficult to convince any judge since you didn't resist and say 'no'. But as others have already pointed out above, words and resistance aren't universal evidence for rape.

    PLEASE don't think that way. I can't imagine who horrible you must feel right now but thinking that way only empowers the rapist. I don't know why he did what he did or whether he even that his actions were wrong but by feeling lesser of a person, you only let him win. Whether it was his fetish or actual assault, he forced you because somewhere at the back of his mind, he knew that he was making you submit to his power, essentially dominating you. Power struggles are central factors in cases like these and you need to understand that by assaulting you, he didn't win anything and neither did you lose. We've used the word 'Rape' as a synonym for 'defile', 'conquer' and 'subjugate' for far too long. Men (and women) grow up associating rape with words like these and these notions surface from their unconscious during the crime. It also slows down the recovery process, like it's doing with yours, because you feel he's taken your dignity from you. You're not some commodity that loses its value after being abused.You're not dirty, you're not used and you're certainly not a whore (I don't know how the Americans use it but to the best of my knowledge, it's an old word used for prostitutes and you didn't sell sex. And even prostitutes are just doing their jobs but that's a different debate). He assaulted you because he's an over-entitled jerk who's probably a misogynist too and views women as lesser pieces of meat. Or he misunderstood your consent because he never bothered to respect you enough to wait for a clear signal. I think we can all agree that he's wrong and wrong people don't get to make nice people feel bad about themselves.

    I'm very sorry about what you had to go through. But this argument would technically legalize marital rape because marriage is a far stronger consensual contract than sexting. There's a reason why boyfriends and husbands get arrested for rape. Being in a physical relationship doesn't give anyone the license to your body.
    Just because no one won't doesn't mean they shouldn't. There can be countless reasons why a man or a woman would want to stop intercourse even after they've explicitly consented to it (unlike this case) and they have the right to do so. And a respectful and law-abiding partner should stop immediately. During no point in sex, does one have any exclusive right over their partner's body. Even consent becomes invalid once a person feels uncomfortable. This is not some transaction with a no-return policy. Laws aren't very clear on silent consent or a lack of it but this was certainly rape in theory. He wanted it and she didn't.
     
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  18. Biguyjosh

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    OP: I'm sorry you experienced what you did.
    Honestly I'm not sure you were raped because I would need to know what was in the sexting messages and what was the dirty talk about (I'm not asking you to share but just thinking out loud, especially if I'm in a jury box).
    Unless he is a rapist or has mental health issues, I'd hope he would have some logical reason for doing what he did. If the sexting involved what happened he might have taken it as consent. If you sexted for him to do ..... as soon as he walked in then legally(?) He may not have raped you.
    I'm not saying this is your fault or you asked for it but there may have been indication for him that it was ok.
    Since none of us are lawyers, that I know of, I suggest you talk to someone at a rape crisis center, a lawyer, or even the police and share what happened, share your sexting messages, and your dirty talk convo to find out if it is rape.
    I don't think you have to press charges but at least knowing a more definitive answer might help you.
     
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  19. tystnad

    tystnad Guest

    The problem with this is unfortunately that the legal system is not generally leaning in the favor of rape victims, and many, many rapes go unpunished due to a variety of factors, including a huge bias in favor of the rapist in many cases, and the difficulty of proving if something is rape (it's often one person's word against the other's). Legal definitions as well as the burden of evidence are also complicated because they differ per country (and even within countries, it differs per state in the US), for example in many places the law requires a clear no from the victim in order to prosecute someone for rape, while in other places (as is the case in Sweden, the UK, and some american states, amongst others) the law states that the absence of a yes is rape. That means that the legal definition differs depending on location, so which one is “true”? And that is only if you can bring this to a court of law, because it is not uncommon at all for police to discourage people from pressing charges (yes, even in democratic, progressive countries, there is NO place where these things do not happen) using arguments such as 'it can't be proven if it was really rape' or even blaming the victim in their rhetoric (‘but maybe you lead him on?’ ‘but surely you enjoyed it!’ ‘maybe if you hadn’t done X this wouldn’t have happened’). Many times, this process is so traumatising people can’t even bear to go through it. I strongly encourage people to report it regardless because even if the case can’t be brought to court, having it visible in the statistics still matters if we want to change the system, but we shouldn’t underestimate the huge impact having to repeat what happened to people who most of the time do not genuinely care or understand has on people. The legal system is not a truth machine and does not, at all, always bring justice. However, if someone is murdered, but the police can't find conclusive evidence the murderer actually did it and therefore can’t prosecute that person, that doesn't mean there was no murder. Similarly, if someone is raped, and the evidence doesn't provide enough legal clarity for prosecution, that doesn't mean there was no rape.

    Consensual sex shouldn’t leave either party feeling violated. Ever. Even more aggressive forms like BDSM (ESPECIALLY those) always happen with consent from both parties and both parties need to be in a situation where if at any point they feel uncomfortable with what is happening, they should be able to withdraw their consent, without consequences. If you feel like you “owed” him sex, that took away your choice. It literally doesn’t matter if this person “didn’t mean to” or whatever people will say to defend rapists who do not look like the stereotypical shady guy with a van who snatched girls off the street. This guy did not ask or even wait for any form of consent - and that makes it rape. period. The fact that he couldn’t look OP in the eye after, used a flimsy excuse to leave and then disappeared, is to me a pretty clear sign that he knew that maybe something about what he did wasn’t OK. rapists do not have a “logical reason” for what they do - they have a desire, they find themselves in a position where they can act on that, and they do not care about their victim enough to bother asking for consent. Trying to find a “logical reason” for his actions is a blame the victim mentality - but it’s never the victim’s fault their lack of consent was ignored. Literally none of the things listed (sexting, dirty talk, etc) is equal to consent for a sexual encounter at another time. Giving consent needs to happen every. single. time. And really, it isn’t hard to know the difference between someone who is genuinely into the sex and someone who is only having sex with you because they feel like they have no other choice - all it takes is for you to care even the slightest bit about the well-being of the person you’re having sex with in order to pick up on obvious discomfort or unease if there is any. So even if he did misinterpret something as consent (which is an awful argument, but anyway) he could’ve stopped at any time but didn’t.
    We need to stop asking what OP did wrong and start asking why this guy thought what he did WASN’T wrong.
     
    #19 tystnad, Aug 8, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2018
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  20. resu

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    A simple definition of rape from the US Department of Justice is this:

    “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

    https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/updated-definition-rape

    Consent is about agreement. As others have mentioned, your silence did not imply consent, and you should never feel you "owe sex" to anyone. Sex with other people is not a right. This man used physical and emotional force (the "dirty whore" lie) to intimidate you. His behavior of not looking or speaking much to you after suggests he knew this was not a normal sexual encounter.
     
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