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Understanding orientation “shift”

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by George Donis, Jul 23, 2021.

  1. George Donis

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    Hi Lemony,

    I hope the weather is not the polar opposite (pun intended) to that which we have here. I have a male friend who I have known for many years and has always identified as gay in this time. During a period of personal relationship based upheaval, I was using the traditional “alcohol based emotional therapy” system to help him get over things and he asked me a very pertinent question:

    “Why did I have to be gay?”

    As children, we all have the same burning question which we throw at everything we encounter in our young lives. Almost as soon as we developed a vocabulary this one word question becomes the eventual bane of our parents:

    Why?

    Virtually all parents will attest to the incessant and seemingly never ending automatic gunfire of whysThe ultimate parental defence comes from the eventual intellectually and emotionally exhausted defence, “because it just is”. I was unlucky in a way, that my Father never used the “just because” defence and understood the importance of answering every “why?” So, my natural answer to my friends possibly rhetorical question is:

    I don’t know, but I will try and find out why.

    Science has been trying to find the physical smoking gun that fired the rainbow bullet for quite some time, and seemingly thus far to no avail. Are they actually asking the right question? They are asking how? When they should take a leaf from the crayoned book of the three year old and actually ask, Why?

    Nothing can exist and persist in evolutionary biology unless it is to benefit of a species as a whole. So, in human evolutionary terms, what possible advantages can there be in having members of our society predisposed to homosexuality? Unfortunately in the field of evolutionary psychology there is no smoking gun of empirical evidence that can satisfy the scientific need for hard evidence. Therefore, we may actually be better off looking for an almost philosophical answer within our own understanding of the very real and very special human condition. Friedrich Nietzche said:

    “He who has a why to live can bear almost any how”

    Maybe we should look more to the why, than to the how.

    If someone finds meaning in my writing, then great. But, ultimately I would be happy if it just provoked thought. And maybe the odd why
     
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  2. Ingvermama

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    The rainbow bullet! I love that, I’ve definitely been hit by that one :blush:
     
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  3. Tuesdayok

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    Welcome to EC George. I must say your post covered so many different topics from evolutionary processes to concealed ovulation. It was not only engaging to read albeit extremely verbose in some places. Not in a negative way though. Only in a way for the reader to absorb the detailed description of your topic at that time. Me. Your use of the English language succinctly demonstrates your high level of intelligence. There are so many questions & things you discussed & brought up that my mind boggles where to start. I guess my question is what brought you onto EC as a forum to discuss these things? I anticipate that you have studied some form of medical & or psychology related courses/degrees given your analysis of both the human body, mind, evolution & societal pressures on sexuality & human procreation. I had never heard of the term “concealed ovulation “, & wonder how that would be even possible given the short timeframe whereby ovulation occurs. On average rougly 12-24 hrs re fertilisation potentially so that is an interesting concept , I had never even heard of.
    I’m a single mom of a teenage girl who identifies as Bisexual. You mentioned “During a period of personal relationship based upheaval, I was using the traditional “alcohol based emotionaltherapy” system to help him get over things and he asked me a very pertinent question”. In reading that was he self medicating with alcohol or was it yourself, wasn’t sure who you were referring to. No judgement just not sure. There are so many opinions, data, medical evidence, thesis written on what & why people are gay? It is a very sensitive question & highly evocative given the level of homophobia that exists in society. The LGBTQIA+ community is one which includes so many different & constantly evolving identities that my daughter continues to educate me on the terminology I need to use, & I myself am very mindful of the impact & importance of using the correct pronouns for example. I am also guilty of being verbose in my writing so hence I recognised it in you.:slight_smile: Completely off topic a bit & no doubt something that may raise discussion on. My past career was an international flight attendant. Many of my fellow crew members were gay. I learnt alot about their struggles as young people given our long sectors we got to know each other well as we had over 14hours to talk about life & the universe after being ever so polite to 400 passengers. I gained a huge insight into their lives & the pressure society places on them from such an early age. My uncle is a Neurologist in NYC & has been for over 50 years plus, including lecturing at Universities. His medical opinion is based on his studies, expertise & treatment of the neurological health of gay patients spanning many years. In his medical opinion gay people are born that way. It is not meant to offend anyone on here. I am merely stating what a Medical Expert’s opinion is, who has treated patients from a Neurological perspective. I don’t have any knowledge nor opinion on that, as I am not qualified nor is it appropriate for me to. I was brought up to respect everyone & treat everyone how I would like to be treated in return. To me it is not up to me nor anyone else to pass judgement on anyone’s sexuality, gender identity or anything like that. As long as you are a kind person & not harming anyone, than it is your choice who you want to be with/and identify as. My 16 year old daughter came out to me as Bisexual about 2 years ago at a guess. My response was thank you for being so courageous in sharing something so deeply personal with me. And we hugged & I told her how much I love her, & how proud of her I am & always will be. Nothing changed. The only thing was she knew I fully supported her, & to never ever feel like you cannot ask me anything or share anything. To reassure her that to me she is the same beautiful daughter & to always be your true self no matter what. Since her coming out we have found this EC forum to be an incredible place for us. To be engaging, accepted, & also as a wonderful resource for both those in the LGBTQIA+ their allies. Thank you for reading this far. Next time you may wanna bring snacks:slight_smile:
     
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  4. Ingvermama

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    It’s great to read about your daughter and you. Thank you from a bi girl who doesn’t have a very good relationship with her mother at all. My daughter is gay, and she came out to me a while ago. I just came out to her, she was so pleased. I hope she won’t mind if I go to Pride with her one day :blush:
     
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  5. George Donis

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    Yeah, basically took him out for a drink so that he could unburden himself in one intensive session. I hope that we will continue to see the levels of parental understanding that you have displayed replicated throughout the globe as enlightenment and acceptance grow with each generation.
    Human females are receptive to mating irrespective of where they are in the estrus cycle. There is no obvious signal to indicate when the period of maximum fertility actually occurs. The time when fertilisation is most likely. One very possible explanation for this is that it has evolved as a trait to allow for paternal confusion in males. There is no guarantee that any one male is the biological Father of the offspring if matings occurred with various other males around the key fertility stage, as this stage was hidden to them. Other males would still be bonded to the female and in all likelihood still provision and care for the female and the infant. Around one in twenty human “Fathers” are said to be genetically unrelated to their children and are unaware of this fact. A great deal of men are in favour of mandatory paternity testing in an attempt to prove to that they are indeed the Fathers of their child. The ultimate expression of monogamy is seen in marriage where we “forsake all others” to guarantee paternity of any offspring. Marriage does not, and cannot exist in evolutionary terms. We have the mechanics of romantic love built into us to produce the necessary pair bonding required for reproduction and child rearing. The Female chooses who, where and when. The man just turns up and says “yes dear”

    I would categorise being a flight attendant as a caring profession.
     
  6. I'm gay

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    You assume that homosexuality is not still stigmatized and that heteronormative culture is a thing of the past. It's not. It's still alive here in the present, and this site attests to the fact we have a long way to go. While progress certainly has been made, it's clear that in every part of the world LGBTQ people are still stigmatized, harassed, beaten, discriminated against, and still hiding in the closet.

    Please spare me your patronizing advice. It's not helpful in any way, and it demonstrates that you clearly don't know me or the others who are in similar circumstances as me. This is a safe space for me, allowing me to give voice to thoughts and feelings that I can't share anywhere else in my life. That's what this place is for us. Of course I love my children, and I am a wonderful and grateful father to them. But how does it help me to avoid speaking my truth in this forum? I NEVER WANTED TO MARRY A WOMAN AND HAVE CHILDREN! I DID IT BECAUSE I FELT I HAD TO IN ORDER TO LIVE A "NORMAL" LIFE. There. I said it. It makes me feel better to acknowledge these feelings, even if it makes you uncomfortable to read them. I don't need it suggested to me that I shouldn't let my kids know I have these feelings.

    Yeah, that's what I thought.

    I would suggest that while these are interesting theories, and it's interesting to discuss them as they apply to the LGBTQ+ community, you shouldn't attempt to apply these theories to the lived experiences of people on this site. These theories apply to humans on an evolutionary scale, not an individual one. You should stop attempting to apply these theories to individuals.

    One last point: I'm not sure why you're here on this site. You say you are straight in your profile, and your postings all seem "academic" in nature. Are you here in some attempt to "study" LGBTQ people? I don't like the thought of my sexuality being in your petri dish.
     
  7. Tuesdayok

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    Thank you. It is a very tough job with extreme highs & lows plus permanent jet lag. But definitely an incredibly beautiful place in my heart re memories of cities, countries visited & learning about different cultures. Can I ask what your chosen career is please?
     
  8. Ceejee

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    No. I didn't even know what a lesbian was when I was young. I didn't realize what my feelings were until I was 21, and then I fought against them. It's been 20 years, and I'm just now beginning to accept who I am.
     
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  9. Ingvermama

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    Hi Ceejee, I always wanted children and was willing to commit to my husband in order to have them, I think my biological clock was ticking as I previously hadn’t liked many men and didn’t have any long term partners due to my confusion. I now think as my children are older, I would spread my wings and find a beautiful woman to be with if it did t hurt my husband. I love him and I chose him so will be sticking around. But in another time and place I would love to have a female partner.
     
  10. Peterpangirl

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    For me personally, the BI came into play strongly. I knew I wanted children and once this imperative was fulfilled I went through a period of sexual "deadness" before finally becoming aware at midlife that I was not asexual but homosexual.
     
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  11. Peterpangirl

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    However, the BI was not the only reason I repressed my true sexuality. I grew up in the shadows of HIV and the infamous Section 28, which led me to repress for self-protective reasons. I have paid a high price within my family of origin for stepping outside of the paradigm and becoming myself and I think my younger self would not have not been strong enough to withstand this.
     
    #31 Peterpangirl, Jul 29, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
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  12. BiGemini87

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    Your theories are interesting, but I'm inclined to agree with what others have said: while it may be true in one case or another, it cannot be applied to the whole. Some people have the biological urge to procreate, others do not; some don't have children, and some do due to pressure. This is true for anyone of any orientation--even straight people and bisexuals in opposite sex relationships.

    As to the why? I'm inclined to think this is nature's way of trying to keep balance. As someone else said, oftentimes straight (or bisexuals in opposite sex relationships) can/will have more children than is necessary. In some cases, they cannot keep these children--said children can in turn be adopted by a same-sex couple, or any couple incapable of having children really. But I think for the most part, it comes back to balance; other species experience population control through the circle of life. Humans basically have a built-in handicap, since evolution has put us in a position where as far as natural order goes, we've essentially "cheated" the system.

    Just my two cents. I'd also like to echo @I'm gay's sentiment; whatever your reason for being here, this forum is intended to be a safe space for LGBT+ folks. Please remember that while engaging with us. There are very real people behind these usernames, and being spoken over on issues we experience is...uncomfortable, at best.