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Understanding orientation “shift”

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by George Donis, Jul 23, 2021.

  1. George Donis

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    I have read a lot of the threads on this site in regard to the experiences and sometimes problems many BI women have with what they regard as sudden shifts in orientation. Other women are confused by an odd attraction to men that seems to run counter to a Lesbian identity to the point where they question whether or not they are in fact BI. This counter attraction is probably more noticeable during the monthly hormonal changes during the ovulation cycle.
    BI in this instance stands for Biological Imperative. You still have a biological need to be impregnated and this unfortunately involves a man somewhere along the line. I am afraid that evolutionary psychology trumps orientation up to a certain age. Our own psychology has yet to catch up with the advances in medical science in regard to artificial insemination.People are just a particularly advanced and evolved Hominid animal and this means they are driven primarily by a genetic need for procreation. Many of the “late life lesbians” have described a shift in their orientation particularly after child birth when the biological imperative has been satisfied. There then seems to be a general lack of interest in men, or sometimes a disgust. Once the man has served his purpose the next shift is into the discard phase. This happens either consciously or unconsciously depending on the emotional intelligence and maturity of the individual to fully understand what is happening. Many women accept this innate biological need for a man with a self acknowledged latent homosexuality as a bi-sexual identity. The shift is sometimes dramatic and the consequences for the straight partner are far reaching and profoundly damaging. This process can also be observed in homosexual men, but to a far lesser degree as the ability to father children at some point is not time bounded as it is in women. The next significant change can occur in middle age when the biological imperative is lost due to the inability to become pregnant and therefore the need to be in a relationship with a man is unnecessary. Again, the same process is in play with homosexual men when it comes to the loss of mating capability in their female partner. The attention here for both gay men and gay women then shifts to an emotional bonding sex which can be better satisfied in a relationship more particular to the pre-existing orientation. Homosexuality is after all an evolutionary necessity that in part led to the success of our particular brand of hominid over other animals. |f this was fully understood and accepted by the world at large then the rights and social acceptance of homosexual individuals would not even be an issue.
     
  2. Ingvermama

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    This is very interesting to read and would explain my very burning need to come out as bisexual at the age of 47! I have always known but managed to muddle along without paying too much attention to it. I have had some mental health problems the last year or so and right now, the urge to come out is a very loud voice in my head.
     
  3. I'm gay

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    This doesn't account for the homosexual feelings I developed in puberty and have stayed with me throughout my marriage and fatherhood. I believe the only reason I succumbed to a biological imperative is because of shame and fear leading me to a "normal" heterosexual life. If I had been able to accept myself earlier in life, I would not have fathered children. What of the biological imperative then?

    Is the information provided here someone's opinion, or is there data to support these conclusions?
     
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  4. George Donis

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    Hi Ingvermama,

    I am sorry to hear of your mental health issues. Do you think that they were linked to repressed desires in your past? The loud voice in your head is your unconscious self urging you to become your true self. You should not feel any unease in being your true self and should allow yourself to simply “feel your feelings” and relax and enjoy them. Whether you decide to act on them is entirely up to you, there is no pressure to go and do anything you don’t feel is right. At your age there will be a desire to form bonds with others who feel the same as you. Women are naturally more choosey when it comes to mate selection, this comes from safeguarding the biological cost of reproduction they face over men. So, go and be free and allow your legendary intuition to guide you. You are the only person who’s judgement matters as far as your orientation and expression are concerned. If others choose to judge, it’s their problem not yours. If there is a significant other in your life, be open and honest with them about how you feel. Tell them you have always been this way and how the desire now burns you. There is one thing that women should know about men, we actually have a desire to see the women in our lives happy and content and sometimes we will sacrifice a lot for that.
     
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  5. Ingvermama

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    Hi George, thank you for your message. I am going to tell him because I do believe being honest will make our relationship stronger. He has seen me through lots and I hope this will be one more thing he takes in his stride. I would like the freedom to show myself as me, and I’m not sure how that will be exactly, but right now I feel like I have a very exciting secret I want to share. I always felt shame as a young adult about this, I didn’t know anyone from the LGBTQ community but the times were different, now i feel ready.
     
  6. George Donis

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    Er, your biological imperative led you to father children in a normal heterosexual relationship. This was the overriding factor that allowed you to accept yourself for who you are and fulfil your reproductive need. Your shame and fear is a construct of your consciousness that drove the biological need. I presume that the use of the plural “children” would indicate that this wasn’t a one off thing. What do you mean by “accept yourself”? You are who you are and nothing will change that. The important thing to realise here is whether you are an authentic self as a good person and good father. That is truly the only thing that really matters to your children. The only shame and guilt you should worry about is that which drives you to being a good father. Some people are able to repress same sex attraction in order to reproduce. Q.E.D.
     
  7. George Donis

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    Good, honesty and truth will allow you both to move forward. I hope you lose the shame and turn it to pride.
     
  8. Ingvermama

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    I hope I lost the shame long ago, I really feel strongly about doing this. I will come back when I have come out to him :smirk:
     
  9. I'm gay

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    No, I don't think a biological imperative was responsible for me fathering children at all. Shame led me to hide my homosexuality, to pretend I was straight, and pressure from family, friends, and society led me to date and marry a woman. I didn't want any of it, wasn't looking forward to it, and felt no imperative or desire to procreate. Yet I did it because I felt trapped with no way out, so I did what I had to do. To say that I did all that because of some biological force acting upon me with an innate desire to procreate is simply nonsense in my opinion.

    You also didn't answer my question on whether this was all someone's opinion or if there was data to support this idea.
     
  10. George Donis

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    I would guess that this pressure came from a time and place where homosexuality was stigmatised to the point where heteronormative behaviour was the only acceptable route in life. I am truly sorry for you if this was the case. Let us be thankful that the later generations are growing up in a time where they do not feel shame for who they are. But, with your expression of regret in “I didn’t want any of it” please spare a thought for your children. It is the last thing they should ever hear from their father. In terms of data supporting theories in evolutionary biology there is little available hard evidence to be found. Many researchers have published papers and theories in regard to mating strategies in humans and the true nature behind certain behaviour. The biological imperative sits very much with the females of our species who have the highest investment in parental gestation and care. It would be interesting to see if there are people particularly women reading this thread who can corroborate the theory.
     
  11. SunnyNarwal

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    This is a very interesting theory, and very well may be true in some cases. However, it does not account for bisexuals who did not experience any noticeable "shift", who developed interest in Men as well as women throughout childhood at a rate comparable to a heterosexual child developing their sexuality. It certainly doesn't account for someone like myself, who never experienced opposite-sex attraction and who's sexuality developed into homosexuality as one gradual transition. (despite the fact that I "bloomed" late, I was never interested in boys\men.) How do you account for the many people who have only ever been homosexual, since the beginning of when sexual urges would make themselves noticeable?
    My theory is that, since we see this in other species, the fact that heterosexuals produce more children than they can care for, homosexuals being unable to reproduce biologically means that they can raise these "extra" children.
     
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  12. dirtyshirt84

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    Hi George. I was curious what brought you to this site and what your background is?

    It is an interesting theory. I identify as Bi and did start to question my sexuality seriously again not long after my son was born. Having said that, I had previously had a relationship with a woman so it wasn’t new to me. I do also think society has changed a lot in the last 20 years and as I am Gay said shame and heteronormal expectations definitely played a part.

    I also think for the younger generation now who identify as LGBT, having a child together is becoming more common and accepted so I doubt they will feel the same need to be with the opposite sex.
     
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  13. George Donis

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    In the case of fully realised Bi-sexual individuals no shift is required in order to fulfil any social or personal requirement. Another theory around Bi-sexual identities has to do with the balance between male and female characteristics in the unconscious psychology of the self. In a spiritual context, the ultimate divine could be viewed as the perfect balance in the Ying and Yang between male and female. Neither one can exist wholly without the other and balance will always be sought either through an external or internal union. Your theory on the roles in society for those blessed with understanding and accepting their own homosexuality almost from birth is valid. This is the theory of familial nurture where non breeding members of a society are free to invest time in the care and nurturing of their own younger siblings and also the siblings of those with whom they have formed a close bond. With the reduction in environmental pathogens and availability of food and shelter during the post agrarian era it would seem that LGBTA+ folk still seem to be drawn to the overall public good. Virtually all of my rainbow friends are engaged in non-profit charitable works or active in the fields of social care and activism in general. This is all for the benefit of others and for the overall social good of all. I would place these friends in the category of being honest and trustworthy and they seem to operate as an oil in the machinery of the social construct. During the occidental explorations of the new world, reports of indigenous tribes virtually universally contained descriptions of general acceptance and sometimes veneration of individuals who could only be described in modern terms as LGBTA+. Most of the reports include descriptions of these people being regarded as Mystics, Shaman, Teachers, Prophets and Law Keepers who carried the tribes history forward through spoken word. The time taken to learn and use these abilities was available due to the lack of direct parental investment. Other tribes around the world regarded these people as a completely normal and acceptable third sex. The fact that this occurred globally in evolutionary terms without communication and in isolation from other peoples suggests that it is part of the evolutionary strategy for social cohesion and strengthens the argument for homosexuality as a social evolutionary solution to further the overall progress of the human species. Over the last 8.5 million years of human evolution anything that did not prove to be of evolutionary value would not have persisted. There should not be any prejudice against any people in the world based on who and how they choose to love others. The tribes of people around the world who suffered the imposition of occidental values lost a great deal in the process. We too lost an opportunity to learn from them the true value and meaning of love and acceptance. Perhaps one day I may find a way to prove this as an irrefutable fact of life. Wouldn’t that be a truly gay day for everyone.
     
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  14. George Donis

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    Hi Dirtyshirt,

    There may be a book in the offing. One chapter is reserved for the key role that homosexuality played in the very social evolution of humanity as a whole. The hope is that even the bigoted will say “hang on, this makes sense” and thus the process of acceptance will have one more advocate. Maybe society could do with a little more of a shove in the right direction.

    Your own questioning following the birth of your son could be explained as a response to gaining bonded support from others in child rearing. Other people may experience shifts due to other major life events including the sad loss of a parent.
    Your child would have had a far better chance of survival in the far harsher environment we predominantly evolved in with two or more Mothers than with one. Marriage is an artificial construct that plays no role in the biological requirements for procreation. If the Father was to leave or be lost somehow, the cost would be enormous if you were left alone. There is no stronger emotional bonding agent than love. The seven year itch experienced in marriage also correlates perfectly with the time span of deep romantic love or Limmerence as it is known. This typically lasts for a maximum of seven years and covers the time required to conceive and raise a child to a point of self sufficiency in a Hunter gatherer setting.
     
  15. SilentM

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    If you want evolutionary approach see bonobo chimp social and sexual behavior as a example of how the human society could look like if female sexuality was not repressed and same-sex not frowned upon.

    Also see how far les social but more closely related to humans chimps do in comparison to us and bonobos.
     
    #15 SilentM, Jul 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  16. George Donis

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    Bonobos use sexual contact to further bonding and social cohesion within the group. They do not do this for personal gratification and it cannot be compared to the nature of the sexual act between two humans. If human females exhibited this level of sexual freedom there would not be a society to speak of as we know it. The females of our species are effectively in a permanent state of fertility, with the only constraint being the time it physically takes to complete each ovulatory cycle. The fact there is obviously an evolutionary divergence between existing closely related species such as humans and the other apes means that the strategies that have been allowed to evolve in the human species are far more successful overall. Human females select their mates based on genetic compatibility and mental capability. Women in general find fit muscular males far more attractive than those who appear to be less so. The major driving force behind the success of humanity is in the female preference to mate with men who exhibit traits such as intelligence, kindness, compassion and other social skills. This is why women almost universally find men with a good sense of humour attractive, as this is a key indicator for all of the personality traits that are genetically desirable. The key thing to understand about evolution is that it is not based on betterment of any individual but across a species as a whole. There can be individual mutations which will only be carried forward if they allow a species to utilise them to further the advance and development of the species as a whole. The key development in the human species in in brain development. It is the separation of the unconscious and conscious mind, where the conscious mind is able to rationalise, learn and develop strategies as the navigator for the base unconscious needs and desires of the core animal in all of us. This comes at a high cost for child birth as the size of the cranium in human babies in relation to the rest of the body brings additional risks to the female in child birth. The amount of time required for the human child to develop into a state of independence also has a great effect on mate selection by females. A woman would not want to be attached to man who was incapable of providing for her and her offspring and would naturally always be unconsciously on the look out for a better option.
    Human females use a the strategy of concealed ovulation to allow them to mate with whoever they choose while allowing for a degree of uncertainty in paternity. We are the only ape species and one of very, very few animals that have concealed ovulation. The solution to the issue of paternal ambiguity is in monogamous marriage and mate guarding by the male. This is where we see jealousy and controlling behaviour by males to protect their paternity and genetic legacy. No man wants to be in a situation where he is effectively cuckolded by another man when he is the one caring for and provisioning the female. Females on the other hand want to preserve the right to choose with whom and when they mate, and will view the potential jealousy, guarding and controlling behaviour of a long term mate as a negative. Women will see these behaviours as a “neediness” in a relationship and that it demonstrates a luck of trust. This lack of trust is well founded in the male mind as males are well aware of their own responses to sexual flirtation by females and their own willingness to cuckold another male. The cost of sexual activity is born almost entirely by the human female in the risk of pregnancy. In very recent times control of this risk is available to be freely used, but evolutionary psychology is still roaming the plains desperately searching for food while avoiding predators. This means that the strategies that have served us all so well are still very much in play even if the context has changed.
    Same sex relationships are fully understandable when you look at the lack of paternal cost in the transaction. It means that the sexual act is in fact entirely conducted purely for the mutual personal gratification of both parties. There is obviously still a bonding mechanic involved where the lack of potential paternal stress may make same sex interactions more attractive and enjoyable.
     
  17. Ceejee

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    I can tell you, as a woman, I never wanted children or to get married. I never had that desire, and even as a child, I didn't play house or with baby dolls. I don't think a BI forces people into hiding. I think that's more of a societal ideology.
     
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  18. George Donis

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    Hi Ceejee,

    Were you able to identify with a Lesbian identity from an early age?
     
  19. Lemony

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    Hi George,
    You seem very smart and driven. What brought you to join EC?
     
  20. Contented

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    I totally agree with this statement. This too was my story. I felt trapped by the heteronormative brainwashing I received. I really had no real desire for any of it. I lived the heterosexual lie because I wanted to fit in to what society expected. Shame was the motivating factor and not some biological imperative. I look back and wish I would have had the courage to embrace being gay back when.