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two spirited

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by TrevinMichael, Sep 12, 2018.

  1. TrevinMichael

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    I liked wearing dresses at times, but it is not something I do often.
    Traditionally two spirited people would be men who wore and took on lives of women in tribes in North America.

    For me it means I have feminine and masculine energy. I bring an understanding of both worlds.

    I am extremely accepting and nurturing. Some might say I am bisexual. Some might even say I am gay.
    I liked being with my wife too much from 20 to 30 something to be considered gay.

    I do remember liking dresses. I do like men. I do like women. I consider myself two spirited.

    I also like kilts.

    Gender wise I am Male if you base it on sexual organs, but I also have a strong feminine side.
     
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  2. AlexJames

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    i think two-spirited is just a native american thing...i've gotten the impression that its considered offensive to use the label if you aren't a native american yourself. there are other labels though...bigender and genderfluid come to mind.
     
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  3. fadedstar

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    I don't think it has much usefulness or relevancy outside of native American culture. It seems unnecessary to me to (mis?)appropriate the culture of such a battle-weary and exploited people. But that's just my opinion.
     
    #3 fadedstar, Sep 12, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  4. Spot

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    I’m not sure that you can just claim you are a Two-Spirit. It was traditionally a ceremonial and spiritual title you are given by the Elders of your tribe. They were also highly respected members of their tribe as they were said to have a close relationship with the Creator, due to the belief that they were given both a male and female spirit.

    Also, your information is incorrect. Historically, there are actually records of biologically male and biologically female Two-Spirits. They did not always crossdress either. It depends on the tribe, as not all had rigid gender roles but in general, it referred to an individual who undertook both male and female duties.

    Kilts were also traditionally worn by the men of Scotland whereas the women wore what is called an earasaid.

    However, I think a male who sometimes wears dresses is called gender non-conforming...
     
    #4 Spot, Sep 13, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
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  5. TrevinMichael

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    I am not the only one who does that is not native.

    And I can. I have felt this was for over 45 years.

    I have been raised around native Americans my adopted sister is half. She died when I was in high school.

    I am not asking for anyone's approval here I am telling you I am two spirited and that is how I always saw myself. I have poured sweat lodges since I was younger, and was asked to by a native american.

    I am not asking anything. This is who I am. I never said women were not. Historically it has been seen in men more in some tribes.

    I am not the only two spirited I know and others who are native not only agree with me but see me this way.
     
    #5 TrevinMichael, Sep 13, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  6. TrevinMichael

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    I said traditionally aka many times it has been men, I never said females were not.
     
  7. TrevinMichael

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    This thread was not done for you to approve or judge. It is who I am. I was adopted into the Ottawa tribe a very long time ago as a young man. You do not know who I am at all. I am at Pine Ridge often. I have several friends like me, one other was also adopted into the tribe. Seems a lot of people can just jump on others with out knowing anything about them.
     
  8. TrevinMichael

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    The world is full of many people. And many of them have notions. Life is not black and white it is full of every color of the rainbow. I am who I am. I am not going to change.

    Your ideas are just that ideas. How we treat others says a great deal about who we are. I choose to treat people with kindness and love.
     
    #8 TrevinMichael, Sep 17, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
  9. Guest10

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    Jesus people, let's get judgmental, shall we?

    Hey Trevin,

    I can't say that I agree with any of the above. First off I thought we accepted and respected everybody -- I thought that was most of what this was about. I do know more about the Native Americans than most people, but I've heard the term Two-Spirit from way back, and not just from Native Americans.
    I agree.
    And, I agree.
    WTF, are people here just outright bigots? Yeah, I know this is harsh, but what most of you just did was to disrespect someone because of his gender. Oh, is it because there is no "2" in LGBT?

    Trevin, I have to apologize, on behalf of my people. This has been embarrassing. Actually I have some relief from White Guilt. I was made a member of the United Tribes of the Illinois and Iroquois nations, by a council of the 8 last remaining full blooded (male) members. This came after two and a half days if instruction in all the traditions, art, history, culture, stories and legends, dance, spirituality, symbolism -- everything. So I can disown the folks who made the above posts. Jesus people. I've been criticized for being harsh, but this deserves harsh. Dissing a person because of their gender. This is an LGBT site, isn't it?

    So Trevin,
    Hugs
     
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  10. TrevinMichael

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    thanks for that

    I am who I am

    Two Spirited has always fit, and even if I did not have the friends and family that welcomed me in that are native american, it still would fit.

    I did not put the tread up for others to tell me who I am. I put it up because it is who I am.

    Then on another thread someone who posted on this one went on to attack me there as well.

    I was always the outcast, but I was welcomed into the homes of my friends. No matter what backgrounds my friends come from they are friends. The color of ones skin is not important what is in someone's heart is.
     
  11. TrevinMichael

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    I was just being free and stating who I am and how I see myself.

    Since no one on here knows who I am, there is not really a way for you to have an opinion on me and who I am. My use of the words Two Spirited are based on my journey with those I travel with, that would be the Ottawa tribe where I grew up and the Lakota and Dakota tribe where I live and these are the people that know me along with many other friends.

    Not sure you can have an opinion about me or who I am with out knowing me personally, especially since you have never met me.

    Respect is something I have for others no matter where they come from or what they stand for.
    If those who have adopted me into their tribes are okay with who I am that is enough for me.

    Have a nice day everyone.
     
  12. TrevinMichael

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    I sing in Lakota I walk along side many great men and women who are Ottawa and Lakota. With out knowing me how would you know I was not part native american???? You would not. Thank you for your comments.
     
  13. Linning

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    Oh come on!

    It is very clear that the other posters were commenting on Cultural appropriation and not on the fact that the OP potentially identify as bigender and bisexual. Cultural appropriation is a massive problem often misunderstood by the people who appropriate other people's culture without regards to how it affects the people of said culture.

    I am glad it was brought up, it means more people are aware of the phenomena. We can all argue whether or not someone who grew up close to a certain culture actually belongs to said culture and it doesn't matter but personally I am glad to see people being aware that cultural appropriation is a thing and seeing it mentionned and it's far from being bigotted.
     
  14. Biguy45

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    It must be exhausting to be outraged over everything every day. Not everything is a crisis. It all makes living in this modern world tedious and barely tolerable
     
  15. Mihael

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    But does cultural appropriation really happen? Maybe it's a thing in America, because I haven't witnessed it at all. Nobody has interest in folklore that I know of.
     
  16. Mihael

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    But does cultural appropriation really happen? Maybe it's a thing in America, because I haven't witnessed it at all. Nobody has interest in folklore that I know of. Why fight so fiercely a problem that doesn't exist or is relatively small? Not to mention that even if this was a problem, assuming that the OP has bad intentions is out of place. Additionally, their activity on the forum gives off a vastly different impression. A kind reminder to not misuse the term two spirit would be far more appropriate than the full on attack that happened.
     
  17. Linning

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    Of course it happens and not just in America! The fact that you haven't seen it happen (though I am pretty sure you have but probably didn't notice it for what it was for example tribal tattoos or people dressing up as Native American for fun etc...) or that it doesn't impact you, doesn't mean it doesn't exist and shouldn't be fought for. Cultural appropriation affects mostly minorities who have already seen their culture and life largely affected by colonialism and else. Native Americans for example have been largely exterminated and the very least we can do is fight for the protection of the little culture they have left and managed to preserve. I believe that's not a "small thing" to fight for and actually quite important.

    Nobody was assuming that he had bad attentions nor was he actually "attacked" (couldn't see any insult or anything that could actually be seen as an attack to the OP in the others posts at all) but he mentioned himself he wasn't Native American and still planed on using words used by Native Americans and referencing Native American culture and was told that it might be insensitive to do so. Can't see it as an attack.

    Most people who culturally appropriate other cultures don't do it to hurt but it doesn't mean they shouldn't be told. I am not talking about the OP here but in general terms.
     
    #17 Linning, Sep 26, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
  18. Sonita

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    I have same situation but I'm a girl with all details for a specific girl but i feel man inside myself!!
    Spcial when be with my boyf
     
  19. Mihael

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    Of course, this is just how this looks from my point of view and this very well is a possible point of view that some people may share with me. Also, someone who misuses symbols simply makes themselves look stupid if anything. It's like those kids who wear tshirts with a band's logo and don't even listen to this band (an example I relate to the most).

    I didn't want to engage in this, but this went overboard in my opinion in the very first posts in this thread. Enough is enough. The same point doesn't have to be repeated over and over before the person we talk to responds. Egoism (being thoughtless and inconsiderate) is also bad intention... at least in how I meant it.

    Obviously, it's not only a custom that we are talking about. It's gender things too, and it's important to note, in my opinion, that our culture lacks an exact equivalent of two-spirit, a socially sanctioned gender that differs from biological sex. Of course, it's not all there is to the two-spirit tradition and there are elements to it that we (people who don't stem from those societies or have not studied them closely) are not aware of and this is why it's important to distinuish the tradition itself from what we find appealing about it.
     
  20. Secrets5

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    I read on an article that the main concern (at least for the poster) was whether or not non first nations would be able to fully be integrated in the role of a two spirit person in their culture.

    Furthermore, where words are rooted in culture often other cultures have similar words. For example, one culture has four gender distinctions that translate to transwoman, woman, transman, man. In our culture they're condensed to just man and woman with no such distinction.

    Perhaps it is not, OP, for you to post here or at least not for guidence. I am not first nations nor have I heard of the tribes you talk of. So if you are able to talk to the decision makers in your area first nation then perhaps they can guide you on this.