1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

LGBT News Trump stops Trans persons serving in the military

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Ryu, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. Eveline

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    home
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    A few people
    One question that crossed my mind when reading your explanation is the question of what makes a good soldier, most soldiers are in their 20s, a period in which they are searching for an identity they are inherently unstable and often lost. Many soldiers join the army to escape from difficult situations at home and the order of miltiary life gives them a sense of safety and stability. With this in mind, it's not surprising that many trans people see the army as an option and choose to enlist and serve their country.

    In many ways trans soldiers have certain qualities that make for good soldiers. They tend to be extremely brave as you need to be brave to cope with coming out as trans and transitioning, they also are much more likely to see their army unit as tyeir home if accepted because many join the army after being rejected by their families, it makes them much more willing to sacrifice their lives for otbers in their unit and be passionate about their job. A soldier who comes from a good home and had little conflict and challenges in their lives would be ill prepared to cope with the challenges that they will face in the military.

    I suspect that overall trans people are more accepted in the military then they are outside of it mainly because once they join a unit they belong to a closed group and they stop being the outsider. They are also amongst young people who tend to be much more accepting of those that are different.
     
  2. MzMrAlexa

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    South Central North Carolina, USA
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Family only
    I agree that Trans, Gay, Lesbian or whomever are Capable of serving in the military, and many can do and have served in an exemplary capacity.. People are people both good and bad. In my 20 years in the service I met all kinds of people from all walks of life and most were capable. Now to say that Trans people are much more likely to be brave and to see their unit as their home? I have to say I don't agree. It depends on weather they are accepted by not only peers, but the leaders, and a person coming out doesn't necessarily mean it's traumatic, and I will tell you that there are a lot of folks in the military who've had very tough life for whatever reason... So while Trans people in general have had to deal with more as a whole that doesn't mean that they are better soldiers because of it. Another issue is that in Combat even the most solid people are shaken, and those that are emotionally on less firm footing often break down and don't handle it so well so from that perspective people who are transitioning who already have a lot on their emotional plate are going to be even in a tougher position when the chips are down. That's not to say that a person can't handle it... because how someone reacts to that kind of stress can never be known until they are in it - no matter who or what you are on a case by case basis.

    The bottom line is that most people aren't arguing if a Trans person can be a good Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine and do the Job. The argument is that as long as a significant portion of the population does not accept Transgendered people, having Transgendered people in the military deployed where it literally is a 24 hour a day 7 day a week thing overall negatively impacts the military's ability to do the mission, and that will be the case until Trans people are accepted by the majority across the board in this country (not just in certain enclaves). When I was in and deployed on board a ship at sea, literally the people I worked with like them or not I had to spend 12 to 16 hours a day sometimes longer if the situation called for it with.. then we went to the same berthing and may have had to sleep with the same individual's bed literally 2' above you, and use the same Shower's Toilets etc. and that was just life at sea, not in the rigors or stresses of a combat environment. Many people can't even get along with their significant other for extended periods like that let alone strangers or people whose values or views clash and that is the real issue because too many people still do not accept Trans people at all. The military is not the venue you use to change society or try to force something to work in.. It's not a social tool - It's the military where the mission has to come first and yet everyone is outraged by this when Society isn't even at the point where something as simple as what bathroom a Trans person can use has yet to be solved.
     
  3. MzMrAlexa

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    South Central North Carolina, USA
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Family only
    I can see your point.. as a late bloomer (not Trans, but Genderfluid or some other acronym not yet devised) I never embraced who I am until much later in life. Long story but there was no room for it in my military life and career. Had I come to realizations sooner I would have had to make a painful choice my internal needs or my career. And to be dead honest I still have to make that choice and Limit my expression because of the society where I live and my 2nd Career, which is of a Technical / Professional nature and not military related at all.... The fact is Yes I am capable of doing the Job (I'm doing it) and I am good at it and have been doing it for almost 15 years. But if I "Came Out" as being Bi, and having "Gender Issues" (Not an issue for me, I know who I am and I am comfortable with myself) or being anything other than a Man it would in the end result in my career being ended... Not directly because there are laws to help with that, but everyone knows that if you don't fit or you're not wanted you will be forced out by the culture or unspoken rule, and in the meantime I would be a disruptive force in the workplace just by virtue of my presence. Is that right? No... it's not. But things are gradually changing, and eventually it will change in the military too, just like it has with Homosexuals openly serving. 50 years ago Gay was a Disease... 25 years ago it was "Don't ask Don't Tell", but if you're Out then your Kicked Out. and at that time there were folks that everyone knew were Queer, but most didn't mind so long as people kept their personal life personal, and look at where we are at today. Is it perfect? No... But much better. And it will be the same with Trans, it will just take time. The difference being that for obvious reasons there can't be a "Don't Ask Don't Tell". So I'm sorry that an option you were looking at may not be a viable option. But it's not just the military, It's still unfortunately much of Society but take Heart as things are changing and will continue to change for the better so long as we approach all with compassion and understanding.
     
  4. gazwkd

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2016
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Lichfield
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone

    I can quite confidently tell you that you are talking out of your ass. Considering I serve in the British Armed Forces - we fortunately do not see any issues and our top brass have come out in full support because of your orange buffoon. THe military said the same thing about gays affecting cohesion and all that rubbish - which were complete lies and fear mongering.
     
  5. PatrickUK

    Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2014
    Messages:
    6,943
    Likes Received:
    2,359
    Location:
    England
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    It's all smoke and mirrors. He has a shit storm brewing over all things Russian and his 'team' are briefing against each other and leaking to the media almost every day, so anything (literally anything) that will divert attention from said shit storm will do at this stage. Anybody could be a pawn in the game at this stage.
     
  6. KyleD

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2013
    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    Spain
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Family only
    The only disruptive force for the military right now is Trump and not trans people. The very fact he made this announcement over twitter is absolutely reprehensible. Secondly, his tweet changes nothing because no policy changes have ben put forward so trans people can still serve in the military.

    You donĀ“t get any more unprofessional than that folks.
     
  7. MzMrAlexa

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    South Central North Carolina, USA
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Family only
    If I'm "Talking out my Ass" you Obviously have your nose so far up it you couldn't see what I posted well enough to read it. You are NOT in the US Armed forces and all of the reasons discussed are part of the Culture of this Country NOT Yours... Your confidence is arrogance and shows your ignorance of what the social norms are in much of the US and believe it or not many in this country about as much of the leadership of your country as you happen to think of ours. And so because you serve in another Nations military you know the US Military?... You're too busy being offended by what I have said to read and understand it. And the fact you are in the BAF is irrelevant to knowing the social situations and norms in the US armed forces.. But apparently you didn't get the fact that I've had just a little exposure to the subject and might have some valid points having served 20 years the US military.
     
  8. Kira

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,623
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Georgia
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Canada's response gives me hope that there are still functional brains here on Earth.

    It's something I needed.
     
  9. Eveline

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    home
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I do understand where you are coming from and I never meant to imply that non trans soldiers haven't been through a lot during their lives.

    One thing that does bother me about your argument is that it doesn't take into consideration the fact that trans people are often only recognizable as trans during a very limited period of time during their lives. This is especially true for trans people who transition younger in life. Furthermore, there is often nothing about their behavior that points to them being trans which means that they very rarely have any sort of negative effect on others around them.

    You live in an area that is sadly infamous for being transphobic and I can understand how hard it can be to not be affected by the negative talk. The question is, do these views represent the feelings of the majority of the young soldiers that are serving today in the military. You see trans soldiers in the news protesting Trump's tweets. If other soldiers are as unaccepting and transphobic as you make them out to be, why would these soldiers want to stay in the military in the first place and why would they feel so hurt by the tweet thwt they would feel the need to protest publically the decision? As I see it, the military is a major part of their lives and who they are and they fear losing their jobs and homes.

    I think one of the sadder things about Trump's desire to ban trans soldiers is that it ignores the fact that very few trans people are actually visible or disruptive in any way and no matter what, most of the people who will be hurt by the decision have done absolutely nothing wrong. The cost to the military is neglectible because the expensive and most disruptive part of medical transitioning doesn't really take that long and is often done after trans people quit their jobs in the military. As you said, transitioning puts you in an emotionally unstable state and you need to be at a certain point in your life to feel ready to go through the journey.

    However, once you do go through it, you are often indistinguishable from the gender you transitioned towards because as trans people we are innately given the tools to navigate the world as people of the gender we identify as. The army giving support for transitioning soldiers just means that they help them cope with the process of transitioning in the same way that soldiers are given support while they go through any serious medical procedure. I suspect that during the period of transitioning they are not placed in situations where they are put or put others at risk. Most doctors that have experience with trans patients understand what transitioning entolls and the whole process of transitioning is heavily monitored and treated according to strict protocols. This is something that can't really be done as part of a combat unit, so is not really applicable to soldiers serving in the navy unless they are given leave to go through the process.

    The bathroom laws are stupid, in my eyes, just because of the reality that I described above of what it means to be trans. Trans women who transitioned are simply women and when they enter men's bathrooms it is weird and uncomfortable as it is for all women. The same is true tor trans men and in that case they can be considered as potential threats by the women who are using the facilities. On the other hand, if they use the bathroom of the gender they identify with, they are, at large, pretty much invisible and definitely undisruptive. The stupid thing is that the main people who are suffering from this bathroom debacle are non conforming women and men who aren't trans which are much more common than trans people who are during the months when they are transitioning. I've read quite a few stories of women that have been accosted by guards because they don't dress and behave in a feminine way.

    Anyway, this is just how I understand and see things, I hope it helped you see things through a slightly different light but I can understand it if you don't connect with my words and accept the validity of my point of view. We all have our own unique experiences and our views are often a large part of who we are and our identities. It's not up to me to change that part of anyone else.

    (hug)

    Eveline
     
    #49 Eveline, Jul 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  10. MzMrAlexa

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    South Central North Carolina, USA
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Family only
    If there was a "Like" button on this Thread I would have clicked it on your post! I understand and agree with you on all points and feel and believe that in time we will get to the place where it won't be an issue at all, just like it was with Lesbians / Gays in the military. When I was in and Clinton got in office I can honestly say that had he kept his promise it would have been a disaster not because the folks in question were any different than they are today but because across the board folks weren't quite ready for that and I think that today if I was to think of it on a timeline basis we are not quite as far along in society accepting Trans as we were when Clinton first took office with being openly Gay / Lesbian in the military.

    And when I thought about it I realized that for a Transexual there is a limited time when most are transitioning, but that limit is in years which (again currently) isn't workable, and unless things have changed most enlisted join right out of or not long after high school, which today is prime transition time as people come out at an earlier age. I'm not saying it's not do-able just not practical yet. And the bathroom stuff is just Bullshit all the way around and I've blasted folks in other forums for drinking the Koolaid on such issues... And good point on non-gender conforming people too!

    I guess that I look at things differently a lot in part from being (or having been) career military. There are a lot of folks who have enlisted and spent a few years in the service but far fewer went the distance to call it a career, and I will tell you that the perspective and understanding you have as a career person is much different, to the point that even after "Retiring" I am and will always be military. Part of that outlook (and not all had it, even a fair amount of the career folks) is that you put the organization and the mission above yourself. That doesn't mean you aren't compassionate or just turn off your feelings, but when you look at views and what is acceptable you look at it from a mission first perspective because you have to. So when Clinton backed out of his campaign promise to the LBGT community I was glad... Not because I thought any less of them, but because from knowing my troops I knew this would be an issue that would hurt the ability to meet the mission at that point in time, and I am glad that the times and people's attitudes in general have changed enough to where it's no longer an issue.

    And thanks for sharing.. we all do have very different experiences and just because people see things differently it doesn't mean that any one point is invalid. I normally stay away from highly emotionally charged topics like this one in forums, but wanted to share on this one since I do see mostly folks a lot younger than myself with many who don't have military experience in here and being both retired military and genderfluid I can offer a different perspective that might help people to understand without the outrage many express. And our POTUS doesn't help with his babbling on Twitter and citing reason's that don't make sense (and he has never served either).
     
    #50 MzMrAlexa, Jul 29, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  11. lemons123

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll be seriously very happy if someone decides to shoot the idiot. Who is going to miss him anyway? An old billionaire, sociopath...it's not like we have reason to be compassionate or whatever...
     
  12. Zoe Izumi

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    28
    Location:
    Michigan
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    My dad constantly says assassination would just martyr whoever gets assassinated
     
  13. lemons123

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    0
    ^ Hard to say really...I think bigger problem is the vice president who seems as worse option...I'm not even an American but we don't need someone can do worse than what Trump did on the Paris climate deal.