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LGBT News Trump mocks Pence for wanting to "hang gays"

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by wickedwitch, Oct 16, 2017.

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  1. wickedwitch

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  2. Jackie Ray

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    I dont get it, shouldnt these dudes be buddies? I was of the understanding that Republicans want to eradicate gay and brown people, but they dont have the balls to say it. I dont get Trump he is way off of the reservation, hes not a democrat or a republican and he is sure not a libertarian. His own party hates him. While I wasnt a fan of Bush or Obama at least they were consistent, this Trump is all over the place.
     
    #2 Jackie Ray, Oct 16, 2017
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  3. KyleD

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    Trump believes in religious freedom in other words that public and private entities should be able to legally discriminate against gay people. He is not as extreme as Pence but he is against the LGBTQ.
     
  4. Jackie Ray

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    This isnt related but I want to get your take on it. I sort of folllow politics and this is how I see it.

    Bush
    . Used soldiers to kill people
    . Wasnt clever, he was transparent by virtue of being dumb
    . Shameless like the U.S. version of Putin
    Obama
    .Used drones to kill people
    . Was clever but the people working for him were complete morons and were always getting him caught spying and other fucked up stuff
    . He at least tried to pretend to be good.
    Trump
    .I have no idea as to his end game
    .Tweets way too much.
    .Fake News

    The only thing I actually agree with Trump on is the fake news, the media is so wreckless with their stories I dont think they even bother to publish retractions. Fake news is real. And if the media would just get it right they could sink Trump, fake news put him in the white house. So effectively the media got him elected.
     
  5. Jackie Ray

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    Well Im a Libertarian and I believe that a private entity should be allowed to discriminate if they choose, and its up to normal people to punish that entity by not supporting them. I believe fully in voluntary participation and if someone hates me because Im gay, I support their right to do so 100%. I think as long as someone doesnt take any tax dollars they can be as big of an asshole as they'd like to be. Like the cake things, if somebody doesnt want to make a gay cake I think its criminal to force them to do so at gunpoint like what was effectively being done.
     
  6. Quantumreality

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  7. Jackie Ray

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    Who are these people that prefer Pence over Christie? Im not a republican, but IMO Christie seems way nicer.
     
  8. StarRunner

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    The impact of discrimination is more substantial and complex than that. First of all, you support a business's right to discriminate against you because they hate gays. Does this also apply if they hate Blacks and Muslims? Is it okay for them to deny services to a customer simply because thay are not subsidized through taxpayers?

    Secondly, If a private merchant was legally allowed to discriminate against LGBT people, it would increase homelessness and affect the economy. Private landlords would be allowed to discriminate against people they don't like, including people with moderate incomes, or welfare, who don't have the "choice" to simply shop somwhere else. They are dependent on the rental private market which frequently has low vacancy rates and turnover. It's one thing to deny a cake to someone you hate, but it's terrible to pit someone at risk of homelessness because you won't ren to them.

    I also lived in a time where there were no laws protecting gays and lesbians in the workplace and remained in the closet for decades for fear of being outed and fired. Would you really want to see us return to such a backwards time? Should any employer have the right to refuse to hire someone who is perfectly qualified just because the employer is a homophobe? Again considering the economy, it's not that simple for a prospective employee to just go somewhere else.

    Businesses have rights in our society. Churches have freedom of religion. But those rights must be tempered with the rights and freedoms of other groups, including the LGBT population in order to achieve equality. Conservatives often use that example of being denied a cake because it implies that discrimination is nothing more serious than being denied a product they can get elsewhere. It diminishes the real harm and hardship that discrimination causes to our society.
     
    #8 StarRunner, Oct 17, 2017
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  9. Jackie Ray

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    Private citizens should be allowed to believe what ever they like, in a free country. So yes it completely okay. To your second point, this would have no effect on the homeless issue, perhaps in Canada it does but here in the U.S. almost all of the low income housing is government subsidized not privatized.

    You need to ask yourself this. Am I willing to execute another person simply because they do not like me? Would I put a pistol against a persons head and pull the trigger because they have a different opinion. Because that is in effect what you are telling me right now. That you condone murder, imprisonment, and forced relocation of those who dont comply.

    If a person doesn't comply with a law, forcing private entities to include homosexuals, whats will happen?

    1.) A fine, if they refuse to pay?
    2.) Another fine, if they refuse to pay?
    3.) Arrest and imprisonment, if they resist?
    4.) A billy club, if they arent subdued?
    5.) The police will execute them, and possibly in the heat of the moment their children?

    Are you willing to murder or ask the police to murder somebody over something so trivial.

    In my community we have gay lawyers and grocery stores, gay owned and gay friendly business' of all types. If people dont want to serve us, oh well its their loss, we will take our money else where. But I have never, considered murder an acceptable option because, its wrong to murder people in a free country. Even if somebody is wrong, if they arent not physically hurting you, you have no right to kill them. People will never come around to learn to accept you if you kill them. It is wrong to murder people in a free country. I really expect to see better attitude among gay people, but I guess even gay people can be fascists. I want to believe that you are better than you are acting.
     
    #9 Jackie Ray, Oct 17, 2017
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  10. Jackie Ray

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    Gandhi didn't fine, imprison, or kill the British, he chose non-participation.
     
  11. StarRunner

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    This is just complete nonsense. As for governmemt providing subsidized housing to low income people, yes we do have it here. There's a waiting list and it is paid through taxpayer dollars. You're saying that we should pay more taxes so that bigots can continue to discriminate against anyone they hate. Human rights apply to all humans. They do not give anyone the right to discriminate against gays, lesbians, people of colour, or people on welfare. It's the sign of a civilized society.

    You call an ambulance because of a heart attack. They arrive and say they can't help because the person is transgender. Do they have to wait for the next ambulance to arrive, hopefully before you die? How far do you take it? What happens when teachers decide they don't want Black kids in their classroom?

    Yes discrimination can affect homelessness when landlords discriminate and there is not enough housing. It affects the economy if when employers leave people on Unemploymemt Insurance because they hate certain groups. Taxpayers should not have to pay more to encourage bigotry in any business. Being a landlord or an employer, or a service provider is all part of the business industry, and like every business, they come under laws and regulations to ensure uniformity.. Not discriminating is one of them.

    It's not hard to understand. It's simply a matter of weighing the needs of each individual in a civilized world and accomodating different groups with competing needs so that no one is expected to endure undue hardship.

    The LGBT population has experienced discrimination for decades. In the US, they had to fight back against police during the Stonewall Riots. That led to more court battle and fuller rights, including same-sex marriages. All of us should be entitled to the same equal rights.
     
    #11 StarRunner, Oct 17, 2017
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  12. Jackie Ray

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    No its not, and you didnt answer my question, if they dont want to comply, what are you going to do about it? Imprison them, beat them, murder them?

    You need to watch some TNG and remember the prime directive, non-interference.

    Are your emergency services privatized in Canada? Because in my country fire and ems work for local government. Maybe that is an issue, there but not where I live. If the school is private and does not accept government funds or vouchers, then Im okay with it being Jews only or white or black. I went to public school, so? If the teacher works for a public school then they must teach anyone, but if it is a private institution, que sera sera.

    Im sorry but you live in world where teardrops are pennies and heartaches are gold, laws are ugly and civilization means men with guns killing those who dont comply. Laws are enforced at gunpoint ultimately. Do you think its okay for cops to murder homophobes. Killing people doesnt change their minds,it just makes them dead. Its makes our society lower because of it.

    In closing, I believe you are wrong about this, but unlike you Im not willing to kill another human being just because they are wrong. You need to search your heart. What makes us right and them wrong? What if they are right and we all burn in hell for sodomy? I dont know, and because I dont know and Im not willing to kill them for it. The LGBT cause has become like a religion and extremists like you seems to be, kill in the name of religions everyday. I dont kill over a difference in beliefs, because Im not evil.

    Be free to have your beliefs, go with god, go with gaya, go with the FSM if you want.
     
  13. Quantumreality

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    Uh, Ghandi never had the choice of fining or imprisoning the British Colonial rule in India. To oppose them, his only choices were the traditional violent revolution or his enlightened non-violence method. Of course, a lot of Indians were killed and beaten up in the process of his movement towards independence from the Brits. Is he, in part responsible for that? Sure. Does the end justify the means? I guess that that is ultimately one question that only the people involved (the Indians) can answer.

    His methodology was unique and only really worked because of the development of global communications. The British people back in the UK ultimately became disgusted with the violent methods that their troops and Governors were using in India - i.e. a heavy-handed, overly deadly and oppressive method of enforcing British Rule. Had his method of uprising occurred in any European colony in the previous century, it probably would have been completely suppressed. (Which makes one wonder how many previous non-violent revolutions against oppressive colonial or imperial governments might have been suppressed in history simply because they were simply erased from history (through violence, of course).
     
    #13 Quantumreality, Oct 17, 2017
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  14. StarRunner

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    Okay, this is just gettimg more and more insane. Clearly, you are beyond capable of reasoning. No one on here is talking about enforcing laws at gun point or killing people for discrimination except you (Note that in Canada, we banned the death penalty and we have very effective gun control laws, as well!). Yes we have laws in Canada that punish private and public services for discriminating against groups with protected code status which can involve compensation to the vitim and/ or fines. It recognizes that the hardships against groups facing discrimination outweigh the hardship of the businesses. How is that 'extremism' in ypur mind?

    Let's face it, you have a distrust and hatred of government which is so entrenched in your mentality that you would condone and legitimize homophobia, racism and sexism and all the devestation it causes.
     
    #14 StarRunner, Oct 17, 2017
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  15. Quantumreality

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    Uh, you do realize that TNG is a TV show and that the "Federation's Prime Directive" doesn't actually exist in our world, right?

    That's quite an extreme thought process. But our cooperative society is based on mutual understanding. You sound like you may have a problem with irrational, Christian-based homophobic beliefs which directly conflict with your own, personal religious beliefs. However, if you're going to 'burn in hell' for sodomy (as you threw out the question), why would it be different or worse if you killed someone? Clearly, I would argue, if you read the Bible closely, the 'sin' of sodomy is based on rape, not on consensual sex. And ALL of the condemnations in the Bible of same-sex relations are in the Old Testament. Uhhh.. Christians means Christ-based, right? Christ was very accepting and said nothing against same-sex relationships. So WHY would Christians have to refer to older Biblical texts, that clearly are NOT of Christ, to try to condemn a type of love that they, personally, don't agree with?

    In terms of actually killing, well that's a personal choice, isn't it? For those of us who choose to join our country's military and defend it to the degree that we may very well be expected to kill or die for our leader's intent/cause in the name of our country. Uh, well, I guess you either get that or you don't. Fortunately, in the US and many other Western countries, the draft went away a long time ago, so only people who are making a conscious decision to defend their country with the possibilities of killing others or losing their own life sign up for that duty. AND, they only sign up for that for a limited amount of time - it's not a life-long commitment.

    Uh, that should be "Go with Gaia." Gaia is the mother earth. And what do you mean by FSM? Flying Spaghetti Monster?

    You seem like a passionate person who is willing to express his opinions (and more power to you on that front), but you also seem uninformed about a lot of history and the current reality. Keep at it, though, the better you come to understand things, the more effective you will be as a speaker.
     
  16. Quantumreality

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    That's really unfair @StarRunner .
     
  17. Jackie Ray

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    Im sorry @Quantumreality but all governments get their power not from the consent of the people but from the barrel of a gun. They use force to intimidate us. Would you pay taxes, if you wouldnt be penalized and or go to jail? And who arrests you? A cop, with a gun and that gun doesnt shoot confetti. Our government used the national guard to break up peaceful strikes all during the late 19th and early 20th century. People who just wanted to be treated decently, were murdered for what?
    And we as a country love our military, but they have killed a lot of Iraqi's and Afghani's for no reason, but they still demand our respect. The only time our military actually fought against bad guys was during WW2. Sorry if you are in the military but, what do they do anymore besides kill muslims and expect jobs when they get back? I refuse to blows these people, they actually hate gays its in the rules. If your were a soldier, what did you accomplish by killing those people, who were probably just afraid of you?

    And TNG is a good idea fictional or not. Jesus Christ is basically a fictional character and he had some good ideas.

    @StarRunner you're right I dont trust the government, our government invaded two countries for no reason. And Canada did kill people in Afghanistan, and the mounties have guns so, your government is at least willing to kill people.

    Im sorry I may be foolish or naive, but I never have and will never use threats, extortion or violence to get my way. Ive never even punched anybody and I hope I never need to. I dont agree with the Christian right wingers but I dont hate them and if I do to them, what they want to do to me, like throw them in jail, then Im just as bad. I understand that governments need to kill, but I think it should only be in the most extreme cases, ie somebody is about to nuke us, but even then we can shoot down their missiles.

    I know we have went far down this rabbit whole together and Im happy we have tried to talk but, I dont think we will see eye to eye. But at least we talked. @Quantumreality you seem really right wing, are you like a big Ben Shapiro guy? @StarRunner you seem ultra left wing. Im just here minding my beeswax, smoking a little weed, just trying to get by.

    I bet you guys both eat meat, and if so, clearly you arent opposed to killing, as long as it serves you. (That was just a joke btw :slight_smile: )
     
    #17 Jackie Ray, Oct 17, 2017
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  18. KyleD

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    Jackie Ray, you do realize that in the U.S. you cannot discriminate against someone because of their religion? Christians are a protected class of people.

    However you are ok with discriminating against someone because they are gay?

    Are you against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or just against gay people? Be careful with the stuff you post because what you are recommending is very dangerous as this would revert the U.S back to the days of Jim Crow Laws and such.

     
    #18 KyleD, Oct 17, 2017
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  19. KyleD

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    Why are Christians so afraid of gay people becoming a protected class? Why should gay people be treated as second class citizens? Before you feel sorry for someone who faces backlash for refusing to bake a cake for a same sex couple think how you would feel about someone refusing to bake a cake for the wedding of a black couple.
     
    #19 KyleD, Oct 17, 2017
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  20. Jackie Ray

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    Youre not listening to me, Im not pro Christian, Im pro gay. But if a gay person hates Christian or vice versa, it is their right to do so. As long as they are private entities, any and all government groups need to be inclusive by law. I dont have the right to tell anybody what they should think, or force them to accept me, if they dont like me its their loss. But if Im a guy who sells fish and I dont want to sell fish to Canadians I shouldnt be forced to. Should a Jew be forced to serve a person wearing a Nazi shirt? no.
     
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