Long backstory, but I've been posting a lot on here recently so many of you will be familiar with my situation. It takes me a while to feel physical attraction. I prefer to get to know someone before I sleep with them, however due to trying to please other people and not being good at setting boundaries assertively, I have always forced myself to sleep with guys I've seen in the past as soon as they want (usually 2 or 3 dates). This leads to me being very upset. I want to point out that this doesn't have a medical basis- I am fit and healthy, eat well and my testosterone levels are fine. I watch and enjoy porn a moderate amount. No issues with ED on my own. There is some potential childhood sexual trauma, as well as parental messages about sex, but it's anyone's guess how much/little these affect the issue. I recently went to a therapist who I've seen before (worked through childhood trauma) and asked her what was wrong with me. Her response floored me a bit and I'm not sure what to think. She said something along the lines of 'There's nothing wrong with you. That model of relationship doesn't work for everyone. I think you just need to get to the stage where you accept that that's you and that there are other people out there like that too. Why don't you try putting on your [online dating] profile that that's what you're looking for?' On one hand it's nice to think that there's at least one other person out there who thinks it's OK to take it slow and that I'm not a freak. It's also a mark of trust that she didn't say 'Oh yes you definitely need 20 more sessions to get over this, that'll be £1000 please!'. Could it just be that I don't value myself very highly that I would have preferred to be told I had a problem? I'd appreciate any advice anyone has on how to communicate on dating apps (yes, not the best platform for anyone wanting to take it slow, but I'm willing to give it a go) that I don't want to sleep with anyone straight away?
I think your therapist is right. I don't wish to generalise too much, but many of the people who are using dating apps are not really seeking dates or relationships. For them, sex is the priority and dating may or may not follow on from that. I make no judgement about their choice to hook up with other guys through apps, providing they are not reckless, but they should be honest about their real intentions and you need to be honest and very direct about yours. I don't even think it's a matter of being assertive to say you are not interested in hook ups or easy sex. Be clear that you are only interested in building an honest, long term relationship where sex comes later rather than sooner (use these exact words, if you like). Believe it or not, there are gay men out there who feel very much the same as you; men who want kindness, companionship, hugs and affection before they dive into bed together. It doesn't mean sex is off the agenda, but it will only come when a measure of trust exists between them and that really doesn't happen in the first few weeks. It might be an idea to look beyond the apps where people swipe through profiles with barely a passing thought. What about a dating website where you can set more filters and create a better and more detailed profile that might result in more careful matches? You mentioned something about parental messages and I wonder if they remain a stumbling block for you. What can you say about those messages? Maybe we can help you with that.
There are *plenty* of people who want to take things slow and may not approach sex for quite a while after the relationship starts. Sometimes many weeks or even months. Now... most of those are folks with trauma histories, but that's still a significant portion of the population. I could be completely misreading the message that your therapist gave you, but if she is saying that there's nothing wrong with not being good at setting boundaries, I would vehemently disagree with that, and I would disagree even more at the idea that you should "just get used to the idea" that you are like that. A lack of boundaries is a byproduct of childhood trauma, often around sexual abuse, but also if you grew up with a parent with shitty boundaries. And it is absolutely fixable. I do think it makes sense to put that on your dating profile, but I will warn you in advance that nobody reads them, and if they do, they often ignore them. So this is something you will need to learn to give voice to when you first speak with people, preferably before you meet them in person for the first time. I will also warn you that this will cause a lot of people to lose interest. But those are not the people you'd want anyway because they are, to put it bluntly, self-centered assholes. As far as how to communicate it, I would advocate being absolutely unambiguous, perhaps something like "I am not interested in hookups, and sex is low on my priority list. Sex isn't going to happen for probably a month or two at the very earliest. If that's a turn-off, then this won't be a match." I would repeat this in my first conversation. But then you must also learn, having asked for your needs, to remind people what they agreed to, because it likely *will* come up before you are ready to say yes. And you also need to learn to be able to just leave if they go back on their word and start pushing you. That's going to take time, but it is absolutely achievable, and once you do, it will feel strange and wrong at first, but will eventually feel not only natural, but empowering. And I'll also tell you this: You don't value yourself highly. The reason you are having difficulty setting clear boundaries is that, in your unconscious, you don't believe you deserve to set them. You are either afraid no one will want to be with you, or that you're only worthy of being someone's sex object, or in order to have friends, this is what you have to do, or something of that nature. That's the nature of why people have poor boundaries. And this is not something you should just put up with. (It's also not something you're going to solve in 6 or 12 sessions, because it is first a journey of self-discovery, and once you have the discovery, it is then a journey of unlearning the deeply held, distorted beliefs in your unconscious and replacing them with more effective and accurate beliefs. It is a process. But it is absolutely a journey worth going on, and the outcome will be significant, if you have a competent therapist to help you. The treatment of male sexual trauma is a specialty. Many therapists claim to be competent at it, but most are not. If you are not getting messages similar to what I'm saying above, then you are probably not getting the best therapy you could. Not because I'm saying anything amazing or earth shattering, but because the above concepts are incredibly basic to a therapist trained in working with male abuse survivors. Finally, you may have worked through the trauma, but it does not sound like you worked on the underlying beliefs that the trauma creates, and in my book, at least, doing one without the other is completely pointless, because without that, you're left with understanding the trauma, but not how it affected you and how you can change that. I hope that helps.
It might be best for @lottaotter to confirm but my reading was that the therapist said it was OK to want or need to take time to get to know someone before having sex, not that having weak boundaries and allowing someone to override that desire or need is OK.
Yes, I saw that as an interpretation as well and think it's likely. But sometimes I see the most batshit crazy advice from therapists so it always makes sense to double check.
@BiShark and @Chip Just to clarify that, yes, this was a part of a discussion about boundaries- we discussed putting a 'proviso' in my dating bio as a 'buffer'/boundary, as well as making it clear in the first conversations I have with people. She warned me it would no dount mean I do get ghosted, nasty messages etc. etc. but that this is a good test for if someone is good for me, and that it is bound to happen when I start to set boundaries for pretty much the first time. It was also part of a larger discussion we had about being self-compassionate i.e. to accept that I am this way and to stop forcing myself into the mould of 'I have to have lots of sex and I have to have it now'. I'll try and reply individually later (I was going to apologise to everyone here for my late reply, but I made the conscious decision not to as part of this process of learning about boundaries; I'm not online much and people will have to deal with that!) but just wanted to make this clear- thanks for checking though- I have seen several therapists in the past who were definitely sub-standard.
I won't write too much here as I think my other post above probably covers it, but thanks for your reply. I am on the fence a bit because on one hand I feel like having the courage to set boundaries and show up as that person who wants to take it a bit slower would be great practice (and very challenging, of course) for standing up to myself, being vulnerable etc. but on the other hand, as you say, maybe I'm just the product of trauma and it's not normal to be like that (my words, not yours). I intend to try dating again - probably on a different platform, as Patrick suggests above - and go back to this therapist when I feel I need to.
Thanks for your reply. As I mentioned to Chip I'm in two minds- it's very affirming to hear from you and the therapist that maybe I'm not as 'broken' as I thought, but I am also hesistant to accept that yet as I know I'm not fully 'healed' and have to do more work. I think looking for a different dating platform would be a good idea (even if it's one you have to pay for; the paywall will probably put enough people off who are looking for hookups too- no judgement from me either by the way). It would actually be helpful to help me screen out the 'type' I always seem to attract- guys obsessed with their careers and climbing the corporate ladder with no hobbies apart from Netflix- again, no judgement but that's just not me. Personal rant over. The best way I can describe it is that I was very prudish as a child- I always felt embarrassed when my Dad was naked, or even partially naked (even though he's always been in great shape, although maybe that's what I was embarrassed about?). I cringe mentioning this but I also remember the first time I was lying awake at night and heard my parents having sex. I know every child/teenager hates this, but I always wonder if my reaction was 'normal'- for about a year afterwards I couldn't go to sleep without earphones on, playing music or a podcast 'just in case' to drown out any sound (if you're familiar with British 1960's semi-detatched houses, you'll know there is ZERO privacy). For a week after I just felt 'betrayed' by my Mom and Dad. I don't know if this is normal, especially as it happened in my late teens- I assume most people in that situation would just feel cringe/disgust for a bit. There's also the fact that me and my friends never discussed sex or relationships (still don't actually). I'd be happy to now, but I don't think that was normal either. We were all late bloomers (that term brings up a lot of shame for me) so maybe that's why. But it's also contributed to me never really knowing what was normal. Also, sex was never discussed in my house- it wasn't explicitly stated as something bad, but it was conspicuous by its absence. We aren't a religious family but I know my Dad wasn't allowed to go to his sex education classes when he was in school- my Grandma didn't want him to learn about it. Generational shame Those are some examples I can think of anyway. I wonder how much it's nature vs. nurture. I don't want to repeat myself too much but I am in a stage where I am very on the fence- Am I normal? Is it OK if I'm not? What would be the healthy choice for me, long-term? Thanks again for your reply. I feel like I've been very needy, since you and @Chip always give detailed replies, and I ask such a lot of questions, but don't really contribute to other people's posts, or really seem to make as much progress as I ough to.
Much of what you described in your reply sounds 'awfully British' actually. In Britain - perhaps more than any other country - there has been a prevelance of prudishness surrounding sex and sexual attitudes, dating back to the reign of Queen Victoria. During the 19th century we adopted some incredibly puritanical ideas in this country about sex, which became rather ingrained as one generation passed their stiff and starchy attitudes onto the next. It may seem like a long time ago and barely relevant to our lives today, but we're actually talking about our grandparents or great grandparents. I know from my own family how influential that generation was on my own parents and I can see where all of the personality clashes arise from. The fact that sex was never discussed at home probably goes back to your Grandma and her attitudes to sex. In refusing to allow your Dad to go to sex ed classes she set up an emotional tightness around the whole subject which seems to have gone down the generational line. It's entirely possible that it goes back further than your Grandma. I think much of your reserve about sex and the strong feelings about your own parents having sex is wrapped up family history. You wasn't born this way, so it's learned behaviour (nurture) and very likely to be associated with generational shame. Given all of that, it's actually rather surprising that your Dad has been naked around you. So often in life, type attracts type, so it's not entirely surprising that your friendship group didn't discuss sex. I think the term "late bloomer" is over used to describe more complex emotional and developmental issues that are embedded into family and relationship dynamics. I wouldn't get too hooked up on that term if I were you. Is all of this normal? I would suggest it's been accepted as normal in many British families and very few people have investigated it in the way you are doing now. When we take a step back though, we can see that there is no need to be so uptight about sex and nudity, but simply making that point will not undo the layers of stress and shame that have become embedded in your mind, over time. How did all of this play out when your were coming to terms with your sexuality and preparing to tell people (your family) that you are gay? If you have managed to confront the shame of the closet, there is hope that you can overcome this with a kind and patient boyfriend/partner, but clear boundaries will be important. I'm afraid the free dating apps tend to attract people with free attitudes (again, no judgement intended) but that's not really what you want or need. A higher level of trust is going to be necessary. Final point - stop apologising!
Thanks for your reply. I don't have anyone I can talk to who doesn't make me feel like a burden, so I do come accross pretty negative on EC. I am going through a particularly bad spell today after a beginner's rock climbing session yesterday that brought up a LOT of horrible thoughts and feelings. I am really not sure if I have managed to confront the shame of the closet. I feel a deep and painful amound of shame around masculinity i.e. my lack of it. I crave female approval. I want the women in my life to see me as a man, but I feel anything but. I do feel quite ashamed still. I always feel uncomfy when I'm with my parents and someone mentions sexuality. I recently dropped into the conversation that I was seeing someone [male] and I could feel the silence over the phone, especially from my Dad. I suppose they're ashamed of me too. To be honest I don't have much hope that I'll overcome this. I have no clue how to overcome this shame and all these feelings of 'Not X enough' that are playing in my head 24/7. It doesn't take much for me to start comparing myself to others. And when I compare I always come up short. All it takes is to see a conventionally-attractive man on the street and I am at rock bottom. I have watched videos on shame and it seems like it's just a matter of 'being yourself' and being honest/authentic/vulnerable but I do try to do this (see above about trying rock climbing, I'm learning a language, I started a new job and tried volunteering)... but it all seems to make me feel worse about myself. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Please, please be honest and tell me if you think it's too late for me to heal. I am lost as to how I can get better. I have to get better, because it can't go on like this. I am so frustrated and I can't take much more. I feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall, never improving. I've started self-harming again today. I'm having to put music on really loud right now to drown out the thoughts, since even after a year I'm still shit at mindfulness. I'm sorry if this all sounds like a guilt-trip. You don't have to respond.
You are not a burden. What you are describing is the true nature of your feelings and even though it may seem negative to you, there is actually something very positive about letting it out. So many people have doubts and insecurities like you (yes, they really do) but they shackle themselves in silence and put their mental well being at huge risk. It actually takes a lot of effort for us to be comfortable in our own skin. So many of us go through life comparing ourselves to others, wishing we had their looks, their confidence, their wit, their wisdom or a million and one of their other supposed qualities, but we never see what's going on behind their mask. We focus on our own insecurities, failing to realise that they have plenty of their own. To some extent, everyone is trying to fit in and make it in this world. What is a man? I see guys projecting the alpha male image to the world, but in so many cases it's veneer. They are attempting to fake it to make it and many women see right through it. Beneath the macho exterior is an insecure and emotionally fragile man whose masculinity is entirely wrapped up in the hours spent at the gym, on the sports field, combined with lots of loud trash talk about sex (often at the pub). There is nothing unique or mature about any of them. This is not the sort of man we should seek to emulate. I'd be interested to know what it means to you to be a man. I would suggest to you that a clear demonstration of your strength and masculinity comes from your decision to come out. You could have suppressed it or ran away from it, but you chose to confront it instead. It's very easy for people to say "be yourself", but in order to be ourselves we need to know ourselves. We need to understand what the best version of ourselves actually is. There is no point in having vague ideas about this or looking at it from a one dimensional point of view. What would it take for you to be comfortable in who you are? This is a question that needs some careful thought and you probably need to examine some of the things you have mentioned in this thread. Yes, you can overcome this. It's not too late. Have you considered the idea of some assertiveness coaching to gain a little confidence and self esteem? I don't actually see the issue with setting sexual boundaries as assertiveness, but an assertive person would be able to do that without feeling bad about it. What do you think? Using music (or anything) to surf the urge to self harm is a good idea. Mindfulness works to some extent, but when the tide is rushing in you may need something more powerful. Do what works for you and don't regard it as shit if mindfulness isn't working for you in these circumstances. It's not shit and you are not shit either.
Thank you. I am feeling a bit calmer now. The annoying thing is that I could see this 'episode' coming on since the middle of last week. i can recognise when it's going to happen, and often get out of that frame of mind a bit sooner than I used to, but not yet prevent it completely. Well, this is true. I live nextdoor to a group of wealthy, conventionally-attractive and self-confident students but they argue more than anyone I've ever met. Sometimes their lives seem pretty miserable, and I'd never want to be them. I'm sure the feeling's mutual, but I've got to try to remember it. I have struggled to asnwer this question in the past but now I think about it the one man in my life I always thought was nice was my Grandad- I remember boys at primary school all telling these ridiculous stories about how their grandads 'shot a million people in the war!', 'scored 100 goals for England', etc. etc. (you get the picture) and I remember being so proud that my grandad was just a sweet little old man who liked cats and gardening and wasn't trying too hard to make up for aging with shows of machismo. I think if he had still been alive he would have been the person I'd have come out to first. He died the night I finally realised I was gay, and for a long time I thought that God had killed him as my punishment. Logically I know that I admire men who are kind and gentle (even if it is a cliche) but I have trouble not being jealous- I think of the 'priviledges' that I see macho men enjoying. I live in a city with a strong lad culture and the ability to be loud and obnoxious in public and face zero consequences is amazing, even though I definitely don't want that myself. The thing about wanting approval for my masculinity from women is obvious (and I'm just using this post as a soundboard for my thoughts now)- all the times I've been told to 'man-up' etc. it's never once been said to eme by another man. I also live with two women who think that Jason Momoa's body is realistic and achieveable for most men. I was effing speechless when we first had that conversation. I will have a think about this and post about it in a few days. No obligation to read, but posting here rather than writing it out as I usually do seems to help more. I think this would be helpful because the advice I see everywhere for improving self-esteem is to throw yourself into new things/situations, which (to be honest) I actually think I'm not bad at, but these situations end up being a bigger trigger themselves. I should have been clearer- I agree mindfulness works- I meant to say that I'm the one who's bad at it, hence it isn't as effective as it would be for someone who could do it well. After months I am still just doing 5 to 10 minutes before bed of closing my eyes and trying to concentrate on my breath, then returning my attention to my breath when I notice it has wandered, but all the guides say 10 minutes is a minimum. Thanks again, it is a great help to read your posts.
I've had a think about this question. I haven't come up with very much so I'm not sure if I'm on the right track, but they are quote big topics. For me to be comfortable in who I am I would need to... Feel comfortable and confident about my masculinity; not insecure, not ashamed of not being stereotypically macho Feel comfortable and confident about my appearance; not caring that I was told I was ugly in the past. Knowing that it's ok for me to look the way I do and being proud to look like this (not making apologies for the way I look). Knowing that just because I'm not conventionally attractive, doesn't make me unattractive or unvaluable as a person. Feel comfortable and confident in my life choices, knowing they're right for me and at the right time for me. Politely heeding parental and other expectations but not giving into them. Forgiving myself for doing things later or in a different way to other people. Not being ashamed of how I like (and don't like) to spend my time. Knowing that my background doesn't make me inferior or less deserving of connection or acceptance than other people. Feel comfortable with my level of (lack of) sexual experience and my sexual history. Know that what I am looking for (a long-term, monogamous, honest relationship on equal terms with someone who values me) doesn't make me weird or any less valid as a gay man. One thing these points all have in common is that they're about feeling like I'm 'enough' in different areas. I think a huge part (if not all) of my problems boil down to this. I have very rarely felt enough, since my earliest memories. I have been having a rough time the last week or so, and writing this unexpectedly made me feel lighter and more free. That's the best way I can decribe it. As for how to get there, I'm not sure at all!
Maybe this is where some confidence/assertiveness coaching may be useful. On a conscious level you seem to understand that negative messages other people load onto us are not valid, but you still struggle to filter them out. The self awareness of who you want to be and where you want to go is self evident in what you wrote above, so it's really a case of bringing action to awareness. Masculinity is rather subjective, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, your life - your choices, your body - your terms (when it comes to sex and relationships). It's okay to stand out from the crowd and do things differently. In fact, it's rather fucking good when people are confident enough in their own skin to do so. You've spent time in therapy and it sounds like you are not fundamentally broken, so have a think about some coaching to get you to where you want to be.
Thanks again, your replies have been very helpful. I will look up assertiveness/confidence coaching as I agree the vasy majority of the issues I encounter in my life seem to come down to those two things.
I think your therapist is right, but you can trust your intuition. You can go to another therapist as an experiment
And what is abnormal about wanting to wait more than 3 dates? For many people, around 3 dates are fine, but for an awful lot of people (not a small minority), it takes more time. It seems like good advise to me.
