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The Big Talk With My Wife...

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by HereWeGo, Feb 22, 2016.

  1. HereWeGo

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    Hey Forhim,

    That's interesting that you came out to your family before your wife. I hope they are supportive. I wish you the best of luck continuing this path by speaking to your wife. Therapy has been the anchor to keep my situation under control. If you decide to use couples therapy, maybe even get a couple recommendations ahead of time so you're ahead of the game. The fact that we we're seeing somebody just days after "the talk" made things easier. It's not cheap. Coming out is costing me hundreds of dollars a week, so be sure to negotiate with the therapist if necessary.

    Thanks for the kind words Hats

    I don't feel like I'm lying to my wife, just experiencing a little confusion and denial. The rabbit hole is a great analogy. And I'm realizing it's a long twisty tunnel. I really don't think I'm bi. I can see why you and a couple of others have mentioned that. I'm just so emotionally attached to my wife and my love for her is still very deep. For her love and sex are very intertwined, but for me love and sex are different things and I don't know if she'll ever be able to accept the way I see them.

    SiennaFire

    I've appreciated your wisdom as I've gone through this process. You're right, I won't be truly happy staying married without the sexual intimacy I need to make me happy. The problem is I want the best of both worlds. I'm NOT living this way because this is how I learned I should live. I live this way because I love my family and all that my wife and kids stand for. We're a great team and we are truly happy (except for that gay thing that gets in the way).

    I found a copy of Joe Kort's book available in a local library. I put it on reserve. Hopefully it will be available at my branch soon. I've seen it mentioned several times on EC. I look forward to reading it.

    I'm glad to hear you found the courage to talk to your mom and sister. (I can't wait 'til I tell my Mormon sister. That'll be a hoot!) Therapy has really helped me process things. Unfortunately I went to a place that was cheap and the therapy was run by interns as part of their degree requirements. Big mistake on my part. This is too big to work out with someone who is new. Get someone who has experience under his / her belt. I hope the therapy will give you some clarity. It's nice to be completely open to someone who is not judgmental, is on your side and has no skin in the game. Also, check out the Head Space app. My wife LOVES it and I finally found time to do my first mediation today. It's nice to clear your head of all the noise for a bit. Best of luck going forward. I will continue to chart my journey. I've found the journaling to be very helpful and therapeutic in its own way.

    I'm not going to write another long "day in the life" as this was mainly a "normal" day trying to get work done. But as I was typing this, my wife came over and said "Can I talk to you for 30 seconds?" She said "I think you're wonderful, funny, thoughtful and I love you. And I'm going to fight for this marriage." We used to ask each other during our entire relationship, "Will you love me no matter what?" and it's nice to know she does.
     
  2. Mr B

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    Chip,

    Maybe I expressed myself poorly, I should have said "SOME people who are born gay..."

    I did not say that you can change your sexual attraction or desire, but you can deceive yourself into thinking that you 'desire' something other than what you really desire. You also can 'function' in a heterossexual life, but you you never thrive.

    By no means I intended to sound biphobic, quite on the contrary. I just tend to view it as a transitional state during your self-discovery journey, once you start to deconstruct your society-imposed heteronormative patterns of thought and behaviour.

    I will use an analogy here. Some people are born left-handed and learn to use their right hands better than their left-hands, they might even 'forget' that they were born left handed. Few people are truly born ambidextrous. Once you start putting some effort on the hand you were naturally inclined to favour, you say wow, and don't look back.

    Finally, you hardly see people reporting that they were gay their whole life and finally found they true self as hetero. To me, this is evidence that once you start deconstructing your society-imposed pseudo hetero self, there is no way back.
     
    #22 Mr B, Feb 29, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2016
  3. SiennaFire

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    I'm glad that you were able to secure a copy of Joe Kort's book from your local library. I'd suggest starting with Chapter 8, which deals with mixed-orientation marriages. There's a model about stages of coming out as a couple that might resonate with you. The other chapters are excellent reading before you enter the world of gay dating.

    PS - Why did you select the user name "HereWeGo"? Every time I read your posts I hear that *NSYNC song in my head :slight_smile:
     
    #23 SiennaFire, Feb 29, 2016
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  4. HereWeGo

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    I didn't spend too much time pondering over a name, but I thought about inhaling, taking a deep breath, opening the door and starting this journey. To mix metaphors, it's like something you might say before you jump out of a plane hoping the parachute opens.

    But thanks for cheapening the moment.:lol::lol::lol:
     
  5. HereWeGo

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    DAY THIRTEEN:

    It feels like a million years since I started this process, and yet it’s been just under two weeks. There have been so many ups and downs and confusing feelings and blech…

    Besides the elephant in the room, this process has dredged up so much other shit from my life especially from my childhood. I suppose it’s a way of trying to figure out how I got to where I am today. Who am I as a person? What am I made up of? I won’t bore anybody with details of what these things are, except to say they’re mommy issues… so cliché… so Freudian! I told my wife I want to throw up all this stuff that’s being stirring around inside me. I imagine it being a black sticky bile, toxic to the touch, and horrible to smell… and so much of it… gallons and gallons of it, like something from a horror movie.

    The last few days have been relatively “normal.” Both of us have been under such stress with HUGE work deadlines, a sick kid, shuttling kids everywhere… Completely overwhelming. We kind of got back into a regular routine.
    Went to an Oscar party at a friend’s house. It was the first time we’d interacted with a bunch of other couples since the incident. We both felt a little removed from everyone else, watching the couples interact with each other, be affectionate with each other. I really wanted to see my friends, but once I was there, I kept to myself and remained pretty quiet. I’ve been booze and weed free since this all started in order to maintain a clear head and not numb myself, so naturally I wasn’t in the same state of mind as everyone else.

    Yesterday we had an appointment at The Center For Healthy Sex. My wife throught this would be a way to “figure out what’s going on” with me, since I’d really only revealed 3/4s of the truth thus far. Maybe there would be tools to help us become intimate again. I was excited when she made the appointment a few days earlier, but now that I was in the room, I wasn’t feeling it. The room was sterile. My wife and I sat in two big swivel chairs facing each other as opposed to being on a couch together. The therapist was nice and direct, but I completely shut down. I didn’t feel safe in that space. I assumed in the moment that this was infuriating my wife. Secretly, I knew I wanted to tell her the whole truth, but I wanted to do it within the safety we’d built with the other couples therapist we saw a few days earlier.

    I couldn’t get out of that room fast enough. I apologized many times afterward and she understood that I didn’t feel safe. Our talk outside the office afterward was more helpful, although I don’t remember much about it at this point because all these conversations get jostled in my head. We had a nice quiet lunch and talked some more. She opened up to me about her need to balance mind, body and spirit. She realizes things are out of whack and she needs to focus on the body more.

    From there, I went to the therapist I’d seen for the last 18 months. I downloaded her on a bunch of stuff and then spent the last 10 minutes telling her that I thought it was best that I see someone else. Our therapy was about me going round and round talking things through, and I needed someone who would dialogue with me and push me to get things out, not just “And how does that make you feel?”

    Which leads to today: It’s my daughter’s seventh birthday. We had fun opening up a couple of presents in the morning. And sent her on her way. Then the car broke down, so my wife dealt with that while I took care of something at the school. All this stuff and NOW we’re off to therapy where I’m going to drop a big bomb… that I’m gay.

    I got to it about 15 minutes into our session. I told my wife and therapist what I’d worked through over the weekend… confronting the truth. I said I can’t say the “G” word out loud, but if it walks like and duck and quacks like a duck… The therapist said we don’t need to apply labels to things. Words are just words…

    Instantly I saw my wife shut down. It was like we were back at day one all over again. She literally had a panic attack there in the room, practically dry heaving. I was having my own uncontrollable sobbing. I kept muttering “I didn’t ask for this. I didn’t ask for this…” Because I certainly didn’t. I’d be so fine if there was a magic pill I could take that made me a hetero human being, I could go on my merry way with my family and never be the wiser. It was pretty ugly in that room, but I’m SO SO SO grateful that I had that conversation in that safe space so that the therapist could guide us. I felt a little bad that the therapist kept talking about how brave I am. I said, no, no focus on my wife’s feelings. I want to hear what she has to say. She’s the brave one having to endure this.

    My wife brought up that she’d watched videos from the Straight Spouse Network and how fatalistic and bleak all those stories were. She thought by me just fantasizing about men and not really pursing them, that our situation might be different. There was hope. Now for her, her story was no different than the others on the website. There was no hope.

    My wife started asking questions. “Does he want to be married to me? Does he want to have sex with me? Does he want a leash to explore?” The therapist said, “I don’t know, why don’t we ask him. Is that alright?” Then the therapist quietly guided my wife to ask those three things.

    “Do you want to stay married to me?” I told her yes, I did.

    “Do you still want to have sex with me?” I want to try to figure something out. If there’s a way to push through this, with the truth exposed and we can come up with the tools so that we’re both comfortable, yes I want to be intimate with you.

    Then there was a long pause… something she’s afraid to ask… “Do you want go out and have sex with men?” I too paused, I wanted to pick my words carefully. I desire to be with men, but I choose not to.

    Unfortunately, the therapist looked at the time and realized she’d made a mistake and double booked by 15 minutes. So all of a sudden my wife and I found ourselves shooed out the door. We both weren’t really upset about it. Mistakes happen.
    We got outside the office building where we talked and cried (and she yelled) for another 45 minutes. At one point she yelled something like “…and I have to worry about you chasing men because you want to have sex with them!” That must have been a sight for passers-by.

    I’ve always respected any feelings she’s had. She rages for short bursts, then apologizes for her feelings, but I always tell her to acknowledge her feelings and don’t bury them. I’m not hurt by them. I’m not going to give a blow by blow, but the most poignant thing to me was when she said “I have everything to lose and you lose nothing!” And that’s when I said: “I lose everything just as much as you do. I lose my wife, I lose time with my kids, I lose our time as a family. Why was I in a ball crying on the floor the other morning when I saw you brush our daughter’s hair? Because it’s the little things, the quiet moments around our house when we’re doing our own thing that I’ll miss as much as the bigger things. I’m fighting to keep this together as much as you are. That’s why I buried these things down for so long. And when you thought that my attraction to men was an obsession or a fetish, I thought maybe this is my second chance. I could push that stuff so deep down inside me, you’d think I was having some sort of weird sex episode and we could move on. I went through that because I lose everything as well!”

    And she got it. She had this aha moment. I don’t know if it will last, but it was there for a fleeting moment.

    I told her that I still want to try and figure something out between the two of us, but for it to work I had to lay all the cards on the table. There was no point in trying to fix what we had if she didn’t realize the real me.

    We had to go our separate ways. I had to go to work, she had to deal with the broken car… and tonight we are celebrating my daughter’s seventh birthday.

    I hope we can truly celebrate the beautiful life that we brought into this world, that we can remember the love that went in to creating this truly spectacular human being, this joy that fills us with laughter and was the final piece to create this perfect family unit.

    -------------------------

    P.S. My wife and I started using a meditation app called Head Space. It has fun little animations, the man's voice who guide's the mediation is very calming. I'd never done serious meditation in my life and now we are both OBSESSED with it. This has become a great tool in our arsenal to cope with this scenario we're in. It takes just 10 quiet minutes a day and can really help center you with any anxiety you've been experiencing. I can't recommend it enough.
     
  6. I'mStillStanding

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    Again, your honesty in the post is both inspiring and terrifying. Reading how you are handling this is just really shedding a light on what my near future has to be. And I think that seeing you handle this with such honor gives me hope that I may not be completely destroyed when my wife and I have the talk. By the way thanks for head space recommendation. I downloaded it right away and it has help calm the storm of emotions.
     
  7. HereWeGo

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    Hey I've been following your story as well. I'm too new at this myself to begin dishing out advice, but I sense your anxiety. I seriously can't imagine going through this without therapy and I'm so glad to hear you've taken that step. Take a breath, and take the time you need... hell it took me 18 months of therapy to figure things out, and even then I haven't completely. And I'm really glad you like the meditation app. I find after awhile I get antsy waiting for the session the next day.
     
  8. I'mStillStanding

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    I have this major flaw. When I make a decision, I'm in 200%. I don't know why, I just have always been that person who had tunnel vision. 5th grade mom made me join 4h. I was so shy I would even say what food i wanted at a restaurant if the waiter was standing there. Mom hoped if I did a speech contest it would help. I worked so hard on my speech. When I did it for my dad he said it was good. But not too expect to win because I would probably chicken out. I was pissed. I told him not only would I win that year I would win ever year they would let me compete. The next 6 years I bleed green (4h color). That's all I did everything I could sign up for that was related. And I won every year I could compete. I even hold state record for competition highest scores. I live in absolutes. Not always the best thing, but just me.
     
  9. TAXODIUM

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    HereWeGo : I just read DAY THIRTEEN. OMG. It's frightening to what extent your story mirrors mine. The exact same sentiments, the exact same words, the exact same reaction and questions from your wife. My stomach is knots just reading that because it sent me right back to where we were 6 months ago. We're still hanging on to the marriage, trying to figure things out. Hang in there. The ride will likely get much, much bumpier before it gets better. Hugs and prayers for you both.
     
  10. HereWeGo

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    I went back and read your story and I found it absolutely heartbreaking. I'm sorry you're going through so much pain.

    My confusion if I can word it in a question is this: Is a person's sexual orientation so stringently attached to who you love or can they be two separate things? Many posts on this site refer to people coming out to their wives so they can fall in love with someone who will satisfy them. I've always valued love and sex differently I suppose. Sex with my wife was great for years and then I sort of lost interest (if I'm being honest it's because I was fantasizing about men), but I still loved my relationship with my wife and kids. It brings me joy. I'm not necessarily looking to fall in love with someone else. I do crave the physical need for sex with a man, but it's just that... physical.

    Sometimes I think this process would be easier if my wife was unkind or I didn't like her in some other way, but it's seriously the fact that right now I find ourselves incompatible sexually.

    I haven't found this addressed on the site. Granted I didn't dig too deep. This place can become a time consumer rabbit hole. (Have I mentioned the work deadlines that keep getting progressively more and more overdue?) Maybe I'll start a separate thread posing this question. But not now! I have to work dammit!

    P.S. It's nice to hear my wife snoring in the room next door. I'm glad she's getting a little sleep. We really haven't discussed my outing since we left therapy.
     
    #30 HereWeGo, Mar 2, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  11. nerdbrain

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    Wow, this.

    Exactly what I've been dealing with just now. So much old, old stuff from early childhood. Things that are scary to say and bizarre to hear. Fucking Freud.

    I wanted to ask you something, HereWeGo. Do you enjoy the physical intimacy with your wife? Not intercourse specifically, but closeness, cuddling, etc. For me there's nothing better. It feels like home, safe and warm. Definitely some Mommy issues there. But does that mean it's not real?
     
    #31 nerdbrain, Mar 2, 2016
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  12. I'mStillStanding

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    Nerdbrain and HereWeGo

    I'm scared I sound like a horny teenager lol. I love my wife, she is my best friend. I have not held her hand or anything like that because I'm scared she will start to think what ever it is going is getting better. While it is, it's not going away. I believe there are different types of soulmates, depending on the type of love. She is one of mine. But sex is important right? My wife and I were virgins when we got married, like complete no tuoee of sex with anyone. It was nice being close to her, but I feel like something is missing. And is fair to her to not experience that kinda of love with someone who can give? Don't I too? I mean it would be easier to walk away if she was evil, but aren't the hard goodbyes the best. That means the relationship and the person made an impression on yoru life that you will carry forever. (Not that I want to say goodbye to her I want her in my life as my best friend forever)
     
  13. Weston

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    How well I remember this feeling. My first boyfriend, the guy I fell in love with (which instigated my coming out), came out and left his wife all within a week and never looked back. But then they hadn't gotten on well for most of their 25-year marriage. It took me almost a year just to come out, and even then I had to set myself a deadline, not knowing up until the last second whether I'd actually have the strength to do it.

    Two years later, I'm still living with my wife, though we both pursue our separate love interests and we both recognize I'm eventually going to have to live on my own. It's hard though when we're still each other's best friend — I guess I'm going to have to set myself another deadline!
     
  14. HereWeGo

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    YES! YES! YES! I miss her touch. I miss curling up next to her in bed. We sleep in the same bed but stick to our own sides. I'm in pain and she's the first person I want to go to for comfort. I think we're in this weird space right now where we don't want to get too intimate for fear that we might deluding ourselves that everything will be okay.

    I don't think that's a sign of mommy issues though. It's a sign that this is someone you care about and you comfort and take care of each other. As human beings, we pine for the touch of others.

    ...and to think that coming out would be the hard part. It's all the messy stuff afterward that's so complicated and unnerving.
     
    #34 HereWeGo, Mar 3, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
  15. Nickw

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    HereWego

    I've been reading your struggles. And I have to say I admire the way you are dealing with this.

    You asked about separation of love and sexual desire. This is complicated and I would guess we each will have a different answer.

    Like you, I have been married a long time. Unlike you, I recognized that I had same sex attractions my whole life. While I didn't hide them from my wife, I did not really disclose it either. I think she has believed what she wanted to and I was fine with that.

    Like you, full disclosure will change everything with her. So I am weighing my sexual desires against my relationship with my wife. While I would like both, I am pretty sure it cannot happen. My fantasy is that I could go out and have uncommitted sex with men and come back to her and crawl into bed I almost cheated to do this. The risk of giving my wife an STD is a large part of what stopped me and the reason I know she would not allow some exploration.

    I am bisexual so I am attracted to women. So, while attracted to men, I am, mostly, fulfilled with sex with my wife...when I get it. I think that is where the answer lies. If your sexual needs cannot be met with straight sex...at least mostly...you will begin to resent your wife and the relationship may collapse. The intimacy that you have will be gone.

    The real tough question is "if your other intimacy needs cannot be met with another man...my situation...what then?

    I am afraid there is no easy answer...for either of us. Can't we just get a hall pass to check this out?
     
  16. nerdbrain

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    Sigh.

    So I'm in a similar place. Have been for around a year and a half. My wife and I are separated but we see each other around once a week.

    I haven't been able to make any real progress in coming out. I've had a few sexual experiments with guys but no real satisfaction.

    Right now I am stuck in a horrible limbo where I cannot muster the slightest enthusiasm for meeting/dating guys. Each time I contemplate finalizing the divorce, I get panicky. And when I think about trying to get back together with my wife, I worry that I'd be setting us up for disaster.

    I have little to no social life because my thoughts are always consumed with this mess. I go to therapy and talk about the drama of my early childhood, and feel like maybe my parents really did fuck me up. Maybe I'm not truly gay but these sporadic-yet-powerful fantasies have some deeper meaning, like aggression turned inwards.

    Anyway, somehow I just wound up spewing all over your thread. Hope all is well (as much as possible under the circumstances).
     
  17. SiennaFire

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    HereWeGo,

    One's sexual orientation {gay, straight, or bisexual} determines both sexual and romantic attraction. Thus a gay man is both sexually and romantically attracted to other men. Some people on EC claim that sexual and romantic attraction are separate and use labels such as "homoromantic bisexual" for example. Unfortunately there's no scientific evidence that sexual and romantic attraction are separate, and you may hear "homoromantic bisexual" et al. referred to as unrecognized labels because the orientations are not grounded in science or recognized by credible professionals. The bottom line for you is that if you identify as a gay man, then you would be attracted both sexually and romantically to other men.

    In your case, you are probably not ready to see yourself fall in love with another man since you are still coming to terms with being gay. This is very normal for somebody who is still accepting their sexuality. Overtime as you become more comfortable with your sexuality, you will find yourself ready to pursue romantic relationships with men.

    HTH
     
    #37 SiennaFire, Mar 3, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
  18. HereWeGo

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    I never questioned that sexual orientation determines both sexual and romantic attraction. I'm questioning sexual attraction and the deep love I have for my wife as being two separate things. Love and romance are different.

    Perhaps you're right. I've fallen in love only once in my life and feel like I met my soul mate. If I feel like I met the right person the first time around, I can't imagine that happening again. It's not something I feel particularly comfortable even considering right now. I believe it was you (forgive me if it wasn't) who in an earlier post mentioned something about getting into the gay dating scene. That statement scared the shit out of me. So not ready to even consider something like that.

    On another note, the library called and the Joe Kort book is ready for pickup so I can grab that tomorrow.
     
  19. SiennaFire

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    Love and romance are part of romantic attraction. The question of why you feel deep love towards your wife is more complex. Perhaps you are a Kinsey 5 bisexual and you genuinely love your wife. Perhaps you view this more as a friendship/partnership that is satisfying in its own right. While I loved my wife and enjoyed sex with her, only after kissing a guy that I cared about did I feel the sparks and extra wow dimension that were missing with my wife. Perhaps you'll feel something similar if you were to date another man. Whether I genuinely loved my wife or convinced myself that I loved her because of my denial is an open question in my mind. Given the sparks I feel towards guys, the question is mostly academic at this point.
    Great! Be sure to start with the later chapters that deal with mixed-orientation marriages.

    PS - The fact that gay dating scares the shit out of you tells me you should do it. See quote #2 in my sig.
     
    #39 SiennaFire, Mar 3, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
  20. CameronBayArea

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    A few people
    [QUOTE/]One's sexual orientation {gay, straight, or bisexual} determines both sexual and romantic attraction. Thus a gay man is both sexually and romantically attracted to other men. Some people on EC claim that sexual and romantic attraction are separate and use labels such as "homoromantic bisexual" for example. Unfortunately there's no scientific evidence that sexual and romantic attraction are separate, and you may hear "homoromantic bisexual" et al. referred to as unrecognized labels because the orientations are not grounded in science or recognized by credible professionals. The bottom line for you is that if you identify as a gay man, then you would be attracted both sexually and romantically to other men.[/QUOTE]

    This subject greatly interests me. I've been having an internal debate as to whether the capacity for romantic love is locked-in by biology the way sexual attraction is. Do you know of any proof that it is biologically locked?

    The big conundrum for me are the thousands of married men trolling the Internet every day for hook-ups with other men, especially the ones who believe they are straight and have absolutely no romantic interest in other men.

    If they are biologically coded for sex with either men or women, aren't you saying they are also biologically coded for romantic love with either gender? If so, and if the coding is connected and hard-wired in the same way, why is it so much easier to deny the capacity for romantic love than it is sexual attraction? These men risk everything for a quick hook-up. Wouldn't indulging themselves with a man-crush on their best buddy be a lot safer? Why do they choose the more radical option?

    It seems to me that the only logical answer is that the capacity for romantic love is much less hard-wired than sexual attraction is. How much less is the question. I even wonder if it's hard-wired at all.

    How hard or easy is it for you to choose NOT to be romantically attracted to someone? For me it's pretty darn easy. A night and day difference between that and sexual attraction.

    More and more, I'm thinking that romantic love is a learned behavior, with society strongly dictating both a hetero and a sexual connection.
     
    #40 CameronBayArea, Mar 3, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016