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General News Texas Church Shooting Leaves More Than 20 Dead

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by DoriaN, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. DoriaN

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  2. HuskyPup

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    Once again, I can see a bunch of (mostly) Republican politicians wringing their hands, and offering 'thoughts and prayers' just as after the Vegas shooting, and failing to take a single, meaningful step to reign in the problem. With the widespread availability of semiautomatic and 'modified' automatic weapons in the US, the legality of these sorts attacks has continued to rise. And as sad as I am for the victims here, I'm more sad for all those that will follow, thrown under the bus by the gun lobby, the NRA, the president and congress who refuse to take any meaningful action.
     
  3. BadassFrost

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    I just read it in the news... this is horrible, one shooting after another...
     
  4. Suomi

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    The issue isn't guns. It's just there are just sick people in this world.

    That man could get a bowl of acid and throw it on people and people die of acid attacks. Ugh.

    Hell, cars. That's a deadly weapon right there. There was just a guy that ram a truck in all those people remember?

    So yes we do have a gun fetish here in America, but people will find other ways to do their sick deeds.
     
  5. DoriaN

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  6. StarRunner

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    Actually, the issue is very much about guns. You can blame the outcome on sick people, but the problem is that those sick people have relatively easy access to lethal firearms in the US, compared to other countries. The weapon used was an assault style weapon. It is not designed to go hunting, it is meant to kill in mass quantities. You cannot compare such weapons to automobiles which are built to serve a utilitarian purpose in all our lives. Cars are not used to commit mass murders in the same numbers as firearms, the reason being that firearms, are lethal, portable, and easily available in the US.

    According to the Gun Violence Archive, the US has experienced 307 mass murders by firearms so far in 2017, approximately one for each day of the year. No other civilized country has that kind of record.

    http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
     
  7. AbsoluteNerd

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    If this is another "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument, however true it may be, people kill more effectively with guns than they do with, to use your examples, acid or cars. It is so much harder to give someone a fatal acid burn than a fatal gunshot wound, and as for cars; well, firstly, cars are already much more heavily regulated than guns, and that example you gave took place in a more crowded location and killed fewer people. I understand your viewpoint, I am simply in disagreement. And before you respond with an extremely emotionally charged comment, we both know that neither of us are going to change each other's opinions, so if this thread turns into a political discussion, please keep it as a discussion rather than an argument/shouting match.
     
    #7 AbsoluteNerd, Nov 5, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  8. Aussie792

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    There are sick people everywhere. It just so happens that where guns are restricted they generally struggle to kill stupendously large numbers of people with the ease, frequency and low rates of prior detection as they do in the United States.

    There are objectively good ways to limit armed violence. A reduction in arms available is a really simple, demonstrably effective answer, one which requires a cultural change to go along with it. I just can't fathom how an entire culture and a nation can just throw its hands up and refuse to make simple trade-offs of the cost to life compared to the liberty of personal gun ownership.

    It might be good to reflect on the fact that this entire thread has more or less skipped past expressing shock, loss or empathy. It's gone straight to admitting we're all tired of this and, in your case, saying we shouldn't even try to do anything.

    I just don't think that does the victims justice.
     
  9. Suomi

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    Well what can we do? It's implied that events like this are unfortunate and terrible, but what more can we do. We are all deeply upset for the lives that were lost in this situation. It's sadly different song, same tune.

    We just live on a sick and sad planet sadly.

    Guns are never gonna be banned in America sorry. This country barely tolerates LGBT fairness and rights, what makes you think they are gonna tolerate people who want to squash the second amendment.

    Look, I hate guns. I do. I hate all these video game that glorify guns and shooting people like Call of Duty.

    But some things are sadly just the way they are.

    Which is why I envy people in Europe or in other countries, as they seem to not give a fuck. I sometimes contemplate if I should save up to move there. I don't know.
     
  10. DoriaN

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    Are you guys for real? The audacity of some whom I won't name here is disgusting.

    First off, some places that have the strictest anti-gun laws also have the worst rates for gun violence.

    Criminals can get any weapon they want, it's not hard. You can make them, buy them off friends, find sellers under the table, I can take a walk right now to a local flea market and buy one illegally very easily. Go ahead, make a law to take away self defense, I'm sure those wicked people will obey and be deterred.



    If you got 1 psycho standing in the streets pulling a gun around 19 unarmed people, that 1 man has all power to do what he wants. If of those 19 some are wielding, suddenly that psycho has a gun on his ass, and if he knows that beforehand he may not even pull the gun to begin with. Regardless it's still that 1 bad egg out of the 20 and if you create a despairity by stripping the 19 you're empowering the 1.

    Most people are sensible people. It doesn't matter what weapons or equipment they're given, they're the same as any other person that finds these events and actions atrocious.

    Even if you disagree, passing laws and taking away the rights of individuals to suit one's worldview and ideology is certainly not right or appropriate. While disagreeing is fine, if a person is otherwise dogmatic and intolerant that is bigotry, which is par for the course to some here.

    My dearest condolences to the victims, sadly it's all I can offer, some may think it's worthless and mock it but even a few words of encouragement can be helpful to those hurting.
     
  11. Aussie792

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    I'll point out no civilian pulled a gun on him.

    The Las Vegas shooter wasn't stopped by armed civilians. Had there been any, they might have just shot more innocent people. Australia made laws which explicitly denied firearms for self-defence. And you're right, wicked people weren't deterred from violence altogether - but they no longer had the means to commit it so effectively.

    It is not audacious or disrespectful to say that the solution to gun violence is to address gun violence. That is not an affront to victims - it is literally the only thing that will stop this from happening again and again. This must be poltical. It's beyond my comprehension that people are offended that violence might spark discussion on ending that violence. Until at least something happens, places like churches, schools and festivals in the US can turn into slaughterhouses on the whim on an angry guy with a machine gun in his closet.

    There is an ideology entrenched in US law which says we shouldn't care, that imposes a moral standard that says no tradeoff of the liberty of owning a gun can be worth as much as the lives it saves. That is what I have said should be changed, because I think instead of passively mourning victims, we need to prevent people from being victimised in the same brutal way.
     
  12. Aussie792

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    Correction: there were armed civilians involved. Their involvement seems largely effective at driving (literally, in a car) the shooter away after the shootings had already occurred.

    Their efforts were obviously brave and worthwhile. They were obviously not decisive in stopping him from committing mass murder.
     
    #12 Aussie792, Nov 6, 2017
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  13. StarRunner

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    It is unfortunate that the connection between the right to bear arms and the rates of homicide by firearms always comes up after these mass shooting. These tragedies and the ensuing responses have become normalized in the US. It astounds me that there cannot be any consensus for even the most moderate measures of gun control, such as prohibiting assault-style weapons and universal background checks.

    In the US, there is an average of almost one gun for every individual per household. Here in Canada, we have stringent criteria and an onerous process to acquire firearms. Gun control works! The US has six times more the rate of homicides by firearms than Canada per capita.

    Although the US has 4.4% of the world's population it, it contains half of the civilian-owned guns in the world. In addition, the proliferation and manufacturing of guns in the US has led to an underground gun smuggling trade. Half of the illegal guns used in crime in Canada can be traced back to the US, either through lost or stolen guns.

    Since the Sandy Hook shooting there have been 1,518 mass shootings, killing 1,715 people and injuring more than 6,000. If the mass killing of 20 small children isn't a wake-up call, I don't know what is.

    When there are more guns in a community there will always be more deaths. People profess their need for guns based on the need to protect themselves and their families, yet statistics don't bear this out as a likely scenario. Guns kill innocent people. In addition to the mass shootings, firearms are used as murder weapons in domestic violence or to keep spouses under control, there are a significant number of accidental deaths in the home by firearms. Most significantly, there are more successful suicides that are committed by firearms in the home than there are homicides. Globally, suicides always outnumber homicides in deaths by firearms. More women attempt suicide than men, yet more men complete the act since they tend to use more lethal force such as firearms. The states with the most guns have the most suicides.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...cs-maps-charts

    For gun control to work effectively, it requires minimum global standards and strong regional agreement. For example, although Canada has strong gun regulation, our efforts are hampered by the illegal gun trade, with 50% of the firearms used in crime being traced back to the US. Similiarly, states in the US which enforce stringent gun regulations are hindered by neighbouring states as illegal guns flow from the states with lax laws into the states with regulation. Other countries around their world are doing their part and getting results.

    The US has been through this in Las Vegas, Orlando, Sandy Hook, while averaging one mass shooting per day. Unless things change, these tragedies will simply continue.
     
    #13 StarRunner, Nov 6, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  14. KyleD

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    That is not true because the United States has the 11th highest rate of firearm related deaths per 100,000 people worldwide. All the countries above them are poor, third world countries so even if some of them have strict gun control laws it cannot be enforced.

    For example, in my country a lot of the guns that kill people here come into the country illegally from the U.S. So your guns not only kill U.S. citizens but people in Latin America and the Caribbean.
     
    #14 KyleD, Nov 6, 2017
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  15. Libertino

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    You're one to talk, considering that if this had been a terrorist attack carried out by a Muslim, your response probably would've consisted of a long rant against Islam, which in your actual intolerance and bigotry you consider to be an evil religion.

    You can't fault those for trying to come up with a political solution here when you of all people would do the same had the perpetrator been of a different demographic.

    No one here is being "bigoted" for suggesting stricter gun control. You are misusing that term in attempt to deflect and it is not going to work.

    As for areas with strict anti-gun laws seeing gun violence, this means nothing if guns are easy to get elsewhere. Inconsistency across state lines leads to strict anti-gun laws having little effect. Chicago has strict laws, but neighboring Indiana has very lax laws; many of the guns implicated in Chicago violence are purchased in Indiana.
     
    #15 Libertino, Nov 6, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  16. TrevinMichael

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    Life was lost for no good reason. Being rude does not help the conversation.

    It is sad they died. Going after each other also does not help. I there have been billions of people who died in vain.

    This is part of the history of human kind.
     
  17. StarRunner

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    There's no doubt this is a terrible tragedy, however platitudes won't prevent this from happening again if no action is taken. Since the Las Vegas shooting on October 1st, there have already been 35 mass shootings across the country with many more deaths and injuries.

    http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

    It's disturbing to me when I hear the American gun lobbyists claim that these are the acts of sick people with memtal illness, while present governmemts vote against investing in programs to help people get treatment, and supporting legislation that allows insurance companies to deny coverage to people with pre-existing conditions.

    This is a part of US history only because of the powerful gun lobby and a culture of guns.
     
  18. Kira

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    I can't say I'm shocked. It's a normal thing here, like rain or wind.

    It'll keep happening until the problem is fixed, and many people just don't want the problem to be fixed.
     
    #18 Kira, Nov 6, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  19. HuskyPup

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    I find it amazing the the killer, with a clear history of aggression, violence and mental illness was actually allowed to purchase an assault rifle.

    Here is a man who beat his wife, and abused his child as an infant with such force, that he damaged the infant's skull.

    "In 2012, while stationed at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, Devin P. Kelley, 26, was charged with “assault on his spouse and assault on their child,” according to the Air Force.

    He assaulted his stepson severely enough that he fractured his skull, and he also assaulted his wife,” said Don Christensen, a retired colonel who was the chief prosecutor for the Air Force. “He pled to intentionally doing it.”

    He was sentenced in November of that year to 12 months’ confinement and reduction to the lowest possible rank. After his confinement, he was discharged from the military with a bad conduct discharge." (NYT)

    Add to this animal cruelty, and an overall pattern of violence and one wonders:

    Why is such a person even able to own a gun? A person who previously cracked the skull of their a child? What is wrong with our society that one would think this even remotely acceptable?

    It is really beyond me why the NRA and so many people fight against stricter background checks/licences for people to own a gun, as if there is a need to own assault style weapons, at all.
     
    #19 HuskyPup, Nov 6, 2017
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  20. Morse Code

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    It's my understanding that most of the victims were children? Ugh...not that it's any better when it happens to adults, such as the recent one in Vegas, but still...just terrible!
     
    #20 Morse Code, Nov 6, 2017
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