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General News Terror Attack in London

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by KyleD, Jun 3, 2017.

  1. anthracite

    anthracite Guest

    You defeated an ideology that took millions of lives before. It's been the Nazis. And just because another ideology will come you're gonna surrender to this one?
     
  2. andimon

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    Banning islam and all its teachings from western civilization will slowly but surely obliterate all (islamic) terrorists. I read somewhere that 2/3 of muslims would not report a terrorist, and 20% of them justify their attacks. So yeah, "not all muslims" but surely a big part of them.
     
  3. KyleD

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    Bullets, bombs and tanks is what got us here in the first place. Have you heard about the Iraq War?

    Shorthaul is right in that the only way to destroy the ideology lies within the Muslim faith itself.
     
  4. SillyGoose

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    They're nit even Muslims though.. Why go against crucial teachings of equality, disregard all the rules of jihad and even attack in the holiest month, Ramadan..
    Also, banning thoughts and religious expression is a human rights violation..
     
  5. Aussie792

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    Banning Islam would be the surest way to rapidly turn a population with a troubled minority into a group in open revolt. Far from obliterating extremism, you'd succeed in getting those populations to believe the claims of groups like ISIL that the West is in an existential war with Islam and that all Muslims must join that fight.

    Even the suggestion of banning their religion or undue monitoring and internment helps Salafists recruit and reduces the incentives for Muslims to report extremist friends, family and neighbours to authorities.

    As attacks like these increase in frequency and casualties, we have to be targeted in our responses, as citizens and as the governments we elect. We do not have to forgive or excuse attacks on the basis of a guilt complex about our foreign policies (attacks on children at a concert or on pubgoers are blatantly about Western ways of life, not about Syria). We can demand more of Muslim authority figures and parents who often treat extremism like sex, expecting the issue to go away if only it isn't talked about. We can pump more money into surveillance and counterterrorism and demand cooperation from companies whose media have become platforms for terror communications.

    But the least effective, least moral and most self-defeating option would be to attempt to ban Islam itself.
     
    #25 Aussie792, Jun 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  6. anthracite

    anthracite Guest

    We forgot something. There is no need to ban Islam altogether, but what they need is a reformation. Did anyone read the Quran? I shall summarize: Hell, hell, hell. Don't do this, don't do that. Infidels are bad, bad, bad and you must take action against them. Otherwise: Hell, hell, hell. And some stuff that is okay. And we need to make the nicer stuff a foundation for a new islam. Take the focus from hell and infidels.
     
  7. Shorthaul

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    We defeated Germany and Japan in a war. All of the Nazi beliefs are still held by a large number of people today. I live in a state that has a large number of people who still think that way. How else do you think Trump got elected?
     
  8. anthracite

    anthracite Guest

    The large numbers are not in germany. We had one relapse, the NSU case and some minor incidents. And we were the only country where you had a proper after-care, so to speak.

    Trump got elected because of a thing called prestige, he's rich, he's got a hot wife and people are still into status symbols subconsciously. For half the US it was just a TV show and he presented an amusing character, some of the usual politcian lies plus demonizing of Hillary. It's the same mechanism Macron used only that Trump happens to be on the right.
     
  9. andimon

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    Yes they are muslims. Their religion teaches that if you don't kill infidels you are not a true follower + their spiritual leader, Muhammad, was a caravan plunderer and a criminal, which justifies any of their actions.

    The moment terror attacks stop and the Middle East countries allow other religions within their borders, as well as respect basic human rights, is when we should start tolerating them.

    I don't understand how this "we accept mosques but Arabs don't accept churches" thing works. Oh, we're better than them? Nope, that's called being a loser. Equality is: you accept us, we accept you. Point. Blank. Period.
     
  10. KyleD

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    Remember that Christianity had been used in the past to justify ethnic cleansing, racial segregation and slavery. Why do you think Christianity is the dominant religion in the Caribbean, the Americas and many parts of Africa? Christianity wasn´t peacefully carried there you know. Before you attack Islam you should really evaluate Christianity which is soaked in the blood of millions of innocent people.

    There will always be evil people who use religion to justify their actions.
     
    #30 KyleD, Jun 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  11. CurdledMilk

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    These terror attacks are really getting to this country now. Just the other week Bath bus station was evacuated and the college put on lockdown because of a bomb threat, which turned out to be an empty bag. This stuff gets personal when it literally effects your home and the people you know...

    Oh yes, luckily my sister was visiting us that weekend and cancelled their night out to that pub, in that area of London...
     
    #31 CurdledMilk, Jun 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  12. DoriaN

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    Do keep in mind that even if someone does something "In the name of", that doesn't necessarily mean it had anything to actually do with the name being used. Any racial segregation or the like is not actually Christian since it opposes Christian doctrine, among other things.

    The core Christian tenet is to love your neighbour, and if you are wronged or to be killed then you are to give up your life and/or offer everything you have. Offer the other cheek, go the extra mile, lay down your life for your friends. Because Christ's kingdom is not of this world, this world is not to be conquered or controlled by the faithful.

    There's even passages in the Bible talking about those that pervert and use the Christian name but are altogether not Christian at all, and these groups even killed actual Christians and will continue to do so.

    John 6:2-4
    "“They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. “These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. “But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you."

    This^ applies also to those that aren't Christian but believe to be doing a service in God's name. That group could be Muslim or something else as example.


    1 John 2:15-23
    "Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

    Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also."



    Revelation 17:3-7
    "And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly. And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns."


    The Crusades, Inquisition, Dark Ages. Doesn't take much to realize that something doesn't sync up, considering many Christians were burned at the stake tortured and slaughtered by those claiming to adhere to such things, which is in sync with prophecy as well.
     
  13. KyleD

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    Dorian, so the same principle applies to Islam. What I do not fathom is your attempt to paint Islam as fundamentally evil and Christianity as fundamentally good. When you say stuff like that it makes you seem ignorant.

    According to you ISIS is the true Islam but stuff like the Crusades and slavery do not represent true Christianity. Your statements are blatantly hypocritical especially since you quote all the peaceful texts from Christianity but quote all the horrible texts from Islam.

    Please stop the misrepresentation with your selective use of scripture. The Koran is no more violent than the Bible. People have used both for good and bad purposes.
     
    #33 KyleD, Jun 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  14. DoriaN

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    Don't put words in my mouth.

    It's not misrepresentation because I can back up everything via scripture from the Quran+Hadith, or the Bible; I'm afraid you're the one that's ignorant on this subject and you seem to have some sort of personal issue regarding these things.

    The fundamental difference you're mistaking, is that within Islam (Which translates to submission), it is mandated to seek out the unbeliever, even by the sword. The two beliefs are infact diametrically opposed, one says "God has no son", the other says "God has a Son". Fundamentally they are direct opposites (There is even evidence in the Bible to suggest that the Antichrist Beast and False Prophet of Revelation have to do with Islam but that is a separate subject), so it stems all the way down into the small stuff too. They are dissimilar in nearly every sense, at best similar jargon is used.

    Think about it, everyone knows what Jesus taught was (to most overall) good, and Jesus is the embodiment of Christianity, it's present in the character of Jesus. In the Bible God loves both the believer and the unbeliever, and there is no coercion of belief but for those that did they simply followed Christ.
    In the Quran it is plainly stated Allah has no love for the unbeliever, that all must believe, and according that Allah deceived the Jews and the Christians into believing what they believe and will subsequently destroy them because of Allah's own deceptions (Even Satan was deceived by Allah in the Quran, and subsequently Satan now deceives because of Allah).

    I've spent a fair bit of time studying Islam and many other religions (Not withstanding Atheism), what I said is objective, not subjective. Muhammad originally lived in Mecca which was a polytheistic place, and the Jews and Christians were called "People of the Book". Muhammad liked the idea of a monotheistic religion, so even in the Quran there are passages that originally spoke quite favourably of them.

    Quran 3:55 "Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."

    Quran 3:3 "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)."

    Quran 10:94 "If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt."

    Quran 7:157 ""Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.""

    (This verse itself even parallels a verse in the Bible found in Matthew 11)



    Quran 5:47 "Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."

    Quran 5:68 "Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith."

    Quran 6:114-115 "Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
    The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.'



    The Quran actually affirms the Bible as true, but claims to now be a sort of '3rd testament' to it (Muhammad claimed to have been visited by an angel, Gabriel, in a cave and thus he became a prophet). Muhammad was eventually chased out of Mecca for his life across a desert to Medina (Which was an incredible feat on it's own), and that is when he gained military power and might. He later went back and conquered Mecca, and as such many of the "latter revelations" are much more militaristic in nature, and if you are aware of the Doctrine of Abrogation, later verses chronologically supersede the former.


    Quran 16:101 "When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not."

    Quran 2:106 "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"

    Quran 9:29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

    Quran 9:30 "And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

    Quran 5:51 "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

    Quran 3:28 "Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying."

    Ibn Kathir on 3:28—Allah said next, (unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.''

    Quran 5:17 "In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.""

    Quran 98:6 "Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."

    It's not that there aren't some good verses in the Quran, but that anything good or pleasant is abrogated in place of Muhammad's final war orders; an active mandate to Jihad.

    All arguments do not even need the Bible to be made, all of this can be made within the Quran and Hadith itself, but it's a large subject so dropping a massive history lesson just to prove a point to someone is not usually worth the time if they don't ultimately care.

    My schedule in my day to day was once spending 6-18 hours day everyday listening to lectures, debates, sermons, conferences, and exposes on various sciences, histories, cultures and religions; in order to not only understand what my own beliefs are but in order to understand and relate to another. It is not lightly, flippantly, or even subjectively I say such things. I only personally care about what is true, and doing what I know to be right, so at many points in life I have re-evaluated and considered my own feelings, morals, understandings, and convictions. It's led this to being a passion for me.

    At the end of the day, it's important to understand that there are good people in all walks of life as well as bad, and they may adopt a name or an identity which may or may not be in unison to how the person carries themselves. The idea is that truth should be stated, and that sharing truth is infact being loving as a person. I'd rather be hated for sharing a truth, than loved for adopting a lie; I refuse to lie, even if I am told it is okay.
     
  15. KyleD

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    Everything that you have said is delusion, there is no truth.
     
  16. DoriaN

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    I'm fascinated to say the least, but not without heartache.

    I've done my fair part, there's nothing I could ever say.