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General News Tear gas used on migrant children and adults.

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by zuice, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. zuice

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    Bullying is force utilized by people opposed to the human rights of others. I have been saddened today by looking at the photograph of the migrant mother defending her toddler child, who is crying due to the effect of tear gas. Imagine the lifelong effect of this trauma upon this child. In this age of conflict resolution, there must be a humane way to prosper migrants and refugees. It is an image that one should never forget and to remind us to care more for our fellow human beings.
     
  2. Destin

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    They are not refugees. The way being a refugee works is that you have to accept the first offer of asylum you receive from the first country to offer it. If you refuse it, then you are no longer a refugee, because if you were really in need you would have accepted the offer of help. You don't get to pick and choose which country to live in as a refugee. Mexico has already offered all of these people asylum, therefore if they don't stay there then they are not refugees anymore and are not entitled to any of the legal protections refugees get.

    These people have straight up said already they don't want to stay in Mexico because they can get more money in the United States. They have no right to enter this country, and have already shown their only motivation is greed since they they'd be perfectly fine staying in Mexico but won't because they want more money.

    They are not migrants - they are hostile invaders trying to force their way into a country despite being told they are unwelcome. Using tear gas was 100% justified to repel an attack on the country, which is exactly what they did by trying to physically force their way through a national border. Some of them were even attacking border patrol officers by throwing rocks, making them foreign enemy combatants participating in an invasion. Many countries would have simply shot them all and been done with it, tear gas was merciful.

    Yes it's terrible that a child ended up getting gassed, but that's 100% the mothers fault for stupidly bringing a child into a dangerous situation and the U.S. has no responsibility whatsoever for it.
     
  3. Kira

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    I wish I could say I'm surprised but I'd be lying. Wasn't long ago they were stuffing children in cages.
     
  4. Aussie792

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    I want to preface this by saying I'm actually quite conservative on migration. I think US Democrats have taken a somewhat strange approach to the status of those who migrate unlawfully compared to most nations, one which risks the nation's right to determine its own composition. That being said, this response is beyond appalling.

    An assessment still has to be made of their circumstances when they apply for asylum in the United States, even if their applications are ultimately denied. It's also notable that an asylum seeker who can afford/has the papers to fly will be privileged under that framework, rather than those who flee on the road.

    Those who uproot their lives often see themselves as having reached the point of no return. Skipping a middle-income country in the hopes of starting a new life in America is not unreasonable even for those who genuinely need asylum. I think it's hard to believe they've taken much formal legal advice on how to make a claim for asylum.

    Yes, many of them are economic migrants. Quite a number will likely not have valid claims to asylum anywhere. But it isn't useful to use language like 'greed' given that many of these people are simply desperate for a better life - even if their applications for asylum are insupportable. Realistically, Canada and the United States need to cooperate as much as possible with Central and South American states to process asylum claims that will naturally prefer the richest and best governed two states in the Americas. That's the only way to sustainably manage refugee and migration flows across the two continents.

    They are migrants. Virtually all reporting indicates many or most members of the caravan will submit themselves for assessment by US authorities. Be as harsh as you like in the migration criteria you support. It is likely a great number of them will be rejected at the border. Arresting and deporting those who unlawfully enter the country is also quite reasonable - it's standard practice of most nations. But calling it an invasion is frankly hysterical and raises the stakes on what is barely even a minor crisis.

    Your president has utterly failed in his response. Rather than taking a reasonable hard line, inviting these migrants to undertake assessment that he believes they will likely fail and subsequently deporting them, he has instead botched the US reaction. He has taken a militarised approach that will likely discourage migrants from taking legitimate routes into the United States and which erodes their trust in US authorities, as well as harming the prestige of the United States.

    Also, just to address the term 'hostile'. How 'hostile' can someone who dearly wants to become American and start a new life there be?

    I don't know where you're getting these attack lines from. They are not waging a war. They are frustrated and some of them are lashing out in a way that, while unreasonable, ineffectual and wrong, is absolutely not enough to justify teargassing civilians. They are migrants who are far weaker than the US authorities at the border. They could not overwhelm ICE and the US Army, so it's fair to say US forces overreacted. It is absurd and quite terrifying that you think the alternative appropriate response is murdering them.

    The US is the nation whose forces unleashed that tear gas. It is entirely responsible for this use of excessive force.
     
  5. Destin

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    Dictionary definition of invasion: "an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity - an unwelcome intrusion into another's domain."

    They are a large number of people who are unwelcome but intruding into the domain of the U.S. so it is indeed an invasion whether it sounds hysterical or not.

    When they're willing to assault American police and use force against American facilities as the first step to start that new life, that makes them hostile, even if their motivations were originally wanting to become Americans. If they'll assault armed police at the border then why should we trust that they won't assault unarmed citizens inside the country too if we let them in. When you reward someone for using force once, it teaches them to continue using force to get what they want in the future.

    Our police use teargas on our own civilian citizens pretty routinely, like during the Ferguson riots, and it's been that way for a long time. It's an effective non-lethal way to disperse aggressive crowds and is completely justifiable, especially against people trying to break into the country. Yes border patrol and the Army could have beat them in a fight if they broke through, but why should we put our police/soldiers safety at risk by allowing that when we can just end the problem right away with non-lethal teargas? If someone's going to get injured, it should be the ones causing the problems not our police/soldiers who are just doing their jobs.

    I never said it was appropriate to kill them or that I support it, just that many countries would have.

    Also, we use teargas on our own police and military as part of their training. Every single person in the U.S. military has been teargassed, so it's hardly some destructive and dangerous weapon when they all got through it perfectly fine in training.

    I'd also invite you to read this article which shows both that teargas is completely normal at the border and that Mexico used teargas against this exact same group of people already when it was their border being assaulted, as well as the fact that using children as shields while attacking border patrol officers so they can't fight back is a common tactic. Like i said, 100% the mothers fault for allowing her children to be in a dangerous situation or being forced to be shields if that's why they were there.


    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...avan-border-crossing-trump-column/2126309002/
     
    #5 Destin, Nov 28, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  6. smurf

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    Yo, this is an insane response.

    You literally have never had to fight for your survival have you?

    You have these people who walked thousands of miles, who suffered unthinkable things for the hope of a better life, who are willing to sacrifice their health to hopefully make enough money for their kids. And you are so willing to vilify them for it.

    There is a migrant group of LGBT people who are trying to come here because else they would be killed in their hometowns. They walked thousands of miles to get a better chance. What have you ever sacrificed or given up? How can you so comfortably sit here and say such things about a struggle that you have never had to face

    Asylum process is something you literally have no idea about. Closing the border in order to stop these people from proving their case is inhumane and against our laws. Your lack of compassion for people is....hard to comprehend.

    Meanwhile, if you are someone who is struggling with these news, there are a lot of great groups racing funds to bring lawyers, food and support for these amazing people waiting to apply for asylum.

    The Florida Immigrant Coalition is putting together a fundraiser in order to help people currently waiting at the border.

    I personally will make sure that I raise as much money as possible to make sure these people feel taken care of and they feel the humanity that the United States of America that I love and know can provide.

    Until then, I would invite you to look into the level of anger that you have for these people who are currently suffering. Just because you disagree with them coming to this country doesn't mean that you have to be so cruel about it. You can both have compassion for these people and also have a strong stance on immigration.
     
    #6 smurf, Nov 28, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2018
  7. RavenK

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    My 'guy that genuinely thinks he's keeping people safe but is an asshole meter' just went off
     
  8. Destin

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    They walked those miles to get out of their home country to avoid the issues, they've done it now, they can live in Mexico for the rest of their lives and be perfectly fine (including the LGBT ones probably). They do not need to specifically come to the U.S. to have a better life. I'll admit that all the countries south of Mexico wouldn't have been much better than where they started, but Mexico is and has actually welcomed them to stay as opposed to the U.S. telling them to go away. Them trying to go to a country where most current residents don't want them, they don't speak the language, and will be mistreated instead of staying where they've been invited, do speak the language, and wouldn't be out of place at all makes no sense.

    I'm not villifying them for trying to immigrate, it's for doing it illegally by force and trying to break in instead of following the laws and procedures like every legal immigrant had to do. Why should these people get any special treatment that all the legal immigrants who did things correctly didn't? You don't see middle eastern immigrants trying to stow away on ships en masse to get here and away from the wars, they wait and follow the procedures like they're supposed to even though it takes a long time. Allowing people to force their way in like this is insulting to all immigrants doing it correctly and following our laws.

    It doesn't matter that they walked far, it doesn't matter where they came from, it doesn't matter what their reasons for doing it are. They are still just random people trying to enter the country just like the millions of others from around the world and should be treated the same as the millions of others, not given special treatment just because they've made themselves an annoyance.

    It is not a human right to live in the United States. There are other good countries in the world, not every immigrant on earth should be coming here. We should only be accepting people that we actually want and can help the country, not just because they feel like showing up one day. Tons of other countries use this system, even Canada is stricter than us, yet somehow the United States is the only one that ever gets accused of 'violating human rights' by not being used as a doormat by everyone that shows up at our border. I don't get what's so hard to understand about this for people. It is our country (meaning the American government) if we don't want people here, for whatever reason we choose to use that day, they can't come here, end of story.

    I also don't know why you and others continuously think I'm angry when I post stuff like this. I'm not angry, I just write my thoughts on things like everyone else but apparently anything that isn't in line with the majority opinion in a thread is considered 'anger'. How is anything I said cruel either? If someone attacks border patrol non-lethally then they deserve whatever non-lethal method border patrol uses to protect themselves. It's not cruelty, it's common sense to fight back against those who are trying to assault you and the place your job is to guard.

    It's not me having a lack of compassion, I have over 1,000 hours volunteering to help sick people in hospitals as proof of that. It's supporting the country I'm from and the well-being of those who live there (legally) over random people who could do harm to the country and are showing disrespect to the country by trying to twist our arm into doing what they want with a large group all showing up at once.
     
  9. Lin1

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    I think you are very uninformed about how immigation works if you think all immigrants trying to enter the US are treated the same. It took me a grand total of 5 minutes at a US embassy to get a work visa, 5 minutes of answering simple silly questions before they took my passport to send it to me with a brand new visa, 5 minutes. All that because I am European, those 5 minutes would have been years and probably led to a refusal had I been from Africa, Mexico or the middle East (being the exact same person I am and probably fearing for my life and well-being much more than I am now!), there is already special treatment happening, and it doesn't happen for the ones who need it most, it happens for the one who probably need it least and could afford to wait and go through lenghty paperwork without fearing of seeing themselves or their kids get killed at any minute.

    You are right it is not, but I don't think people who colonized America cared much about "human rights" and what's appropriate or not to do, did they? On the same basis, nobody gave the rights to Colons to colonize the land that is now the US and therefore why should others not do what "Americans" did in the first place?


    And in fact not every immigrant on Earth wants to come to the US, I wouldn't even consider the US a "good country" when it lacks basic necessities for its citizens and can't event manage to protect its own citizens from harm occuring within the country by fellow citizens. Within the last month there's been countless shootings, wildfires due to climate change, new laws being passed/considered that would infract on human rights and more! This country is a total joke, and should stop being glorified by movies and the else and the government should start focusing on its internal problem before focusing on immigration. Making immigrants sound like a massive threats when they let over 300 shootings happen a year is a joke at best. The US have much bigger problems than immigration and the government should stop blaming most of its problem on immigrants as a diversion tactic, it's tiresome.

    Most migrants are very keen to work and build a life in the US it's the ones like me, who easily have a visa who are more likely to want to have their cake and eat it ( easy access to US comodities and all things that imply, while having no will to commit to the country long-term and make extra effort to fit in and help build the country as we have the ability to go home and back whenever).


    Immigration is far from being the only reason why the US is constantly accused of violating human rights, you might want to look in deeper details at recent (and older) US policies. Canada also doesn't deal with immigration the way the US do, hence why their stance is slightly more respected worldwide.

    I thought patriotic you would know enough about his country to know that the US actually have no official language and that the fact that most people speak English doesn't mean it is the official language. Sorry to break it to you but you don't speak "the language" more than they do (not that you would have any idea what their level of English is anyway).


    I wish you were so keen to apply that logic to your recent thanksgiving thread, or do you only have such categorical views on migrants and not topics that personally affect you? If you think about it, your story and theirs is extremely similar: You want your bf (immigrant family member) to come over, parent (the government) says "NO, family (citizens) only" , it upsets you because those are people (a country) you care about and love and want to share with him especially because he has no family left but you, but they don't care even though they've let others (immigrants) join in before, which is upsetting and makes absolutely no sense and you know they are obviously discriminating on dodgy basis but you can't do anything about it because that's the reality of your life and this situation only a reminder that no matter how much effort you feel you have made to integrate yourself you (and your people) will never fully be accepted.

    Using your own logic on your own personal story, the second your parents had told you no regarding your boyfriend coming over, it should have been the end of the story, but it wasn't was it? Because when it's about the people we care about and love most we take a stance and fight for them and their rights, even if that means fighting against higher powers (parents/the government) and doing silly things (like missing a family event to make a point even though it will upset people and create a bigger gap between you or taking things too far at the border giving food to the fear-mongering and already poor image of immigrants).

    You might have more in common with them than you think you have and might be looking for the same approval from your parents as they are looking for a place to call home.

    Thank your lucky star that you were born in a country where you don't have to witness death on the daily, where your sexuality is mostly accepted or at the very least not going to lead you to jail or to get hanged, where you don't even have to think about migration because you have the ability to build a life in the country you were born in.

    You don't have empathy because you can't project yourself in their shoe, projecting yourself would imply an understanding of why they are doing what they are doing. Whether or not you agree (though I am sure you would if it was you being bombed on the daily, not being able to be with your boyfriend without risking to be tortured and killed by the government, or scrubbing to feed yourself and siblings even the equivalent of half a meal a day.)

    Stop painting immigrants as people who are ready to come kill and bomb honest US citizens when all they are doing is do what you do for yourself and your bf aka batle to try and find ways to achieve what's best for them and the people they love.
     
    #9 Lin1, Nov 29, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  10. Destin

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    That's called learning from past mistakes of others. The Native Americans naively allowed the colonists to stay and it destroyed their civilization entirely, so what happened to them is just support for not allowing unknown immigrants to enter the country anymore so it doesn't happen to our current civilization too.

    When 95%+ of the population speaks the same language, it's the language of the country, regardless of whether or not that is actually written into law as an official language. There is almost no way poor rural Hondurans are going to speak English well enough to function here on their own, they won't be able to talk to the vast majority of people which will leave them at a huge disadvantage.

    I did apply that same logic to my situation. I have a gate clicker, security codes, house key etc. so could have very easily simply shown up with my boyfriend anyway and sat down at the table in their house whether they liked it or not, then refused to leave until the police dragged me out (which is like illegal immigration). However I did not do that, because it's their house, and I respected their wishes of who they didn't want coming to their house at that time for the stupid reason they chose to use. I'll try again on Christmas to bring him, but if they say no I'm still not going to break in anyway just to get my way.

    There's also the fundamental difference that I was specifically invited there, they asked me to come, no one asked the immigrants to come to the U.S.

    I do understand what you were trying to get at with that comparison though, and it's a fair point I hadn't thought of before.
     
  11. Chierro

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    I have other things to say, but really this is what sticks out to me the most and I will leave it at this. The United States of America does not have an official language. Period. Some states are trying for English Only movement (several of these states, from my recollection...we talked about this in class so I don't have the link anymore...being states with high Hispanic populations), but the country as a whole has no official language. As an English and as an Education major, this has been brought up in my classes. It doesn't matter if the majority of the country speaks English, it's not the official language.

    I do agree that there are people who are trying to come here who don't speak English, and very well possible that they haven't learned due to the situation they were born in (which isn't their fault)...but that doesn't mean they can't learn? Classes, dude. There are immigrants who take English classes. There are school districts which have ESL (English as a Second Language) programs for their students and offer services at night or on weekends for families. You'll also see school districts with very prevalent ESL programs in states like California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas because they have high Hispanic populations. In the classroom I was just in there was a kid who's first language was Portuguese. Spoken English is good, but his written needs work. He's learning, like many people do when they immigrate here or come here as refugees or seek asylum.

    I would also like to point out that there are elderly people in this country who immigrated here in the early 1900s who do not speak English or speak very broken English. They speak Polish, German, Russian, etc.. They speak the language that they grew up learning and some learned English but not all...and they got by fine. They probably couldn't communicate with a lot of people without a translator, and yet here they are, with families and still around in their 70s, 80s, 90s. In New York and many majors cities you can regularly hear Spanish, Arabic, German, English, Mandarin, Hindi, maybe French, maybe other languages. And those people have jobs, they get by, and many know English or learn it.

    English is also literally a conglomeration of many, many languages. It's always growing and pulls words from different cultures all the time. For example, emoji. Emoji comes from the Japanese for "Picture letter/character" and yet it is seen as an English word that a vast majority of the population uses on the daily.

    I also recommend looking at these links:
    https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2013/demo/2009-2013-lang-tables.html
    https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2014/acs/acs-26.html

    Apologies that the information is several years old, those are as recent as I could find given census data. With the second link, it actually breaks down by country and those from Central America had relatively high numbers in "Well" or "Very Well" or English-speaking ability when they speak another language at home. Obviously there are people that don't speak English very well when they come here, but...don't lump everyone together, man.
     
  12. smurf

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    This is what gets to me. You have NO idea about immigration policy.

    Seeking asylum en mass is not an assault on a country. They do it so they won't have to be ignored. Its a smart way to seek asylum and it has been done for generations. Its like you forget the mass migration that happened to Ellis Island where you had BOATLOADS of people immigrating here. The only difference now is that we have decided to close the border instead of hearing their cases for asylum.

    This mass immigration is not new. What is new is the vilification of these people who the grand majority are doing nothing wrong.

    If you truly wanted them to be treated just like anyone else, then you wouldn't send the military to the border for no fucking reason, you wouldn't close the border crossing in order to stop them from seeking asylum, and you wouldn't give the military permission to use lethal power against civilians.

    I'm going to assume you just don't know any better, but immigrants have been sought after by the United States for years. We cannot run this country without immigrants. The only thing that has changed is that the country is slowly shutting down legal ways for immigrants to stay in the country long-term.
     
  13. RavenK

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    I agree with you, smurf. I hate how the United States (which is where I do live) and how they deal with imigrants. This country has a bad record of hurting innocent people, most of which just want a bett
     
  14. RavenK

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    Better life. My grandparents on my mom's side are German immigrants. They moved out of Germany in or around WW2 because they wanted safety. They speak English and German and will even speak to my brother in German. And according to Dustin up there, that makes my eighty year old retired grandparents invaders . If this country all thought like him, they'd be thrown out.
     
  15. Gutterpunk

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    I got tear gassed, actually cs'ed (the military 3x strength version of tear gas), at my grandfather's estate sale. we were cleaning out the shop, when my uncle (ex 101st airborne) found a "smoke" grenade, which he popped in the lawn, when I went to get a bottle of water, I hit the ground, everything hurt, my eyes, my nose, my mouth, every single cell of my body burned from the inside out. I don't think it should be used on anyone, it is worse than being shot or stabbed (speaking from experience, but those are stories for another day). tear gas should never be used again.
     
  16. Cherub786

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    No you are wrong. The indigenous people were on this continent before any of us. It is wrong to impose artificial borders on them. They have a right to free movement within their own continent. If they demand all you White Europeans go back to Europe it will be their right. You are the one privileged to live in North America, but it is their birthright.