LGBT News Sterilization rule for changing gender upheld in Japan

Welp what can you do. Here in Czechia its a common norm for - who knows how many years now. Not saying it's right just not as uncommon as you might think.

It's a pity that you don't express your opinion on this, but I think it's fair to assume that you're against it. Personally I don't have that much problems with that (sure could it be the fact I started my journey while already knowing this) but:

1) Trans people can't have children anyway (which - I suppose - shouldn't even be an argument here, but you never know)
2) Me (and a fair share of trans community) ain't attached to our biological genitals anyway. So personally, I won't miss it.
3) Sterilization mind sound horryfing but you'll get a replacement. True it may not be fully functional but it's not a "dead meat" either.

The only problem I see here is the moral factor, nobody should forced you to sterilize yourself. And with that - it's every man for himself. I'm not supporting this but I'm not wholeheartedly against it either. I can see the authorities having a reason for this. Afterall there needs to be a line between the genders somewhere.

Note: If I offended someone, well I won't apologize for it, since this is my opinion. However know that offending anyone wasn't my intention.

 

My apologies, I should have chosen better words. I wanted to get across a different mesage so I take that statement back. What I meant to say was that most transgender people shouldn't have use for their reproductive organs anyway. I guess it's mainly me since a transgender man wanting to go into labor and deliver a birth is just beyond me. Same goes for transgender woman who wants to impregnate someone (if we are exluding artificial insemination).

I see where are you coming from but on the other hand it is a reasonable process to me. If we won't draw the line somewhere then who can define the difference between a man and a woman? Theoretically speaking, of course, but nowadays you have people threating to sue you if you call them different pronouns then the ones they desire. I believe you can see what chaos could arise from this. Sure I have no problems believing that it works in some places, but the whole world? Not a chance.

Now I know it may seem like I'm in favor of regressing society in favor of few individuals, however I believe there should be boundaries.

That would be a problem yes, however that is not really relevant here as it is something that could be "easily" solved.

 

Didn't make in 5 mins, so here is a little addition:

Such definition shouldn't be necessary of course however such people often look like the exact opposite of what they want to be called.

 

Your biology does not determine your gender. The government requring you to have surgery in order to change your gender marker is 1) unscientific 2) morally corrupt 3) A LOT of trans people do not want surgery in order to change and that is okay.

No one is suing anyone for different pronouns calm down.

There is literally no reason to have a "line" that defines what a women or a man is. The Olympics is having the hardest time creating that line right now because the line doesn't naturally exist. Its a made up line that our society created.

Everyone should be against forced sterilization of anyone. There is literally no reason for it ever and it has never worked.

 

Well that's logically and actually untrue. Sure some people can feel like a man in a woman's body or reversed - that's what being transgender is about. However we were all born as members of those two genders, like it or not. One can however do their best to change that biology if he or she wishes to become the opposite gender.

And yes you can request that people call you by "she" pronouns while being a male who never had any hormonal therapy but I'm pretty sure you can imagine how that would end. Besides I don't believe such person should even clasiffy as trans but that's beside the point.

1) It's actually straight up science, as I stated before - sterilization takes away your biological organs, therefore you are biologocially way closer to your desired gender. However what are you biologically if you have woman hormones and male genitals? It's the very science that backs up this law.

2) Morally corrupt? Maybe, but as I said there needs to be a line. Otherwise the boundary betweem genders cease to exist. A fully grown man could attack you for calling him "he". Hell if he'd sue you, he'd won. Nobody would able to define which is which. Can you imagine such situation?

3) I already adressed this above.

Are you one of those people who say thet gender is a social construct?

Well if you don't believe me then you should do some research. There are such people, and it's not exactly just a few. Of course there are other unnaproriate reactions for using the "wrong" prononous, I'm sure you can imagine which, and yes police and court are often being involved.

What exactly you mean by "it has never worked"? It's working here perfectly and how exactly is it even possible for it not to work?

 

Japan is really dropping the ball here (more so considering their aging population crisis)

 

I don't agree with forced sterilization or forced medical procedures and I know and respect that plenty of trans people don't want hormones or altering operations, but I also have a hard time with the concept of self-identification giving free access to places/things the person wouldn't be able to if not self-identifying as a man/woman.

There are actually areas where that could (and already does) cause concerns. The Olympics is one, because while gender might be a social construct, biological differences between men and women are real and it seems slightly unfair that a man could suddenly decide to self-identify as a woman and play in the women's team with his male body, making the competition unfair (and likely winning it as a result) to then return back to identifying as a man shortly after. Same applies for women shelters or other safe spaces dedicated to women whose safety could be compromised by individuals who could use self-id as a way to infiltrate shelters or other safe spaces for their own benefits.

I am for self-identifying giving you the right to change your name/gender legally but I actually think self-identifying should have limitations and that some things should be accessed only after transition has been properly started. I understand it would sucks for people who do not wish to transition but I think people who aren't serious about transitioning and would use self-id for wrong doings are very unlikely to mutilate themselves for the cause and probably wouldn't self-id if all it got them was access to papers stating they are a woman but no real advantage/access.

 

Phew okay there is a lot here so this will be long. I won't be answering all issues raised, but hopefully give some more context as to what is going on.

This is true if you think about the world from the biology that we learned in third grade. Luckily for us there are amazing scientist who have clearly shown our understanding of gender and sex is WAYYY more complex than you think. Its super complicated for me to explain it here, but NPR did a wonderful job in this hour long podcast to walk you through it all. (NPR for those outside of the US is a publicly owned radio company. Radiolab is a creation of a local NPR station and has sound science and journalism)

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/gonads-xy

A lot of us understand biological sex with a pretty fateful underpinning: if you’re born with XX chromosomes, you’re female; if you’re born with XY chromosomes, you’re male. But it turns out, our relationship to the opposite sex is more complicated than we think.

You might not listen, but if you want to catch up to the new science coming from the biology field then I would highly invite you to listen to it. Everything is nicely explained there.

Most trans people don't go through surgery. Its super common from trans people to go through hormone therapy without doing bottom surgery. Not all trans people have dysphoria about their genitals and not all trans people think that you genitals must "match".

This also happens naturally with people who are born intersex.

[

This has never happened and never will. Hypotheticals like that are insane because the social ramifications for such actions would be severe. No cis guy wants to compete against women. Competitive athletes at the Olympic level want to compete with people near their ability.

And while yes there are differences in biology between people, the differences are way smaller than you think and they are having a hard time trying to dictate what constitutes as a women and a man because its more complicated than just your genitals when it comes to sports as well.

NPR also made a podcast about Dutee Chand which is a female athlete who was the cause for the many changes happening in the Olympics community. Hear her case and you will see that its way more complicated than what you are making it seem

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/dutee

In 2014, India’s Dutee Chand was a rising female track and field star, crushing national records. But then, that summer, something unexpected happened: she failed a gender test. And was banned from the sport. Before she knew it, Dutee was thrown into the middle of a controversy that started long before her, and continues on today: how to separate males and females in sport.

Again, this doesn't happen and this has been used as a way to keep trans women with men in prisons and domestic shelters. The same logic is being used to ban trans people from using the correct bathrooms.

Okay, so there is a confusion as to what transition means and the steps that in entails.

Transitioning does not mean surgery. Transitioning means taking steps to live your life authentically. This usually entails therapy to then be approved for HRT for a couple of years and then to be able to do surgery if you so desire. It takes thousands of hours and thousands of dollars. You can't do anything when it comes to changing your name or gender without going through various steps. There is no such thing as self-identifying to legally transition. Those lines already exist.

The debate is whether or not the government should require you to SURGICALLY transition in order to change your papers. This is something that happens in a lot of states in the US, but its slowly being taken away because its an absurd way to create public policy and its not backed up by any therapist or psychologist who works with trans individuals.

 

The urge to have a child can be very very strong. Strong enough to go through dysphoria for 9 months on end just to have kids of your own. The adoption system is pretty broken, and there's no guarantee a trans man could ever be a father by relying on adoption processes biased against them.

Also, not everybody has the same level of dysphoria. Some people can use their genitals without feeling bad about it. It doesn't mean they're not trans or a ''real'' man/woman. It just means they learned to make it work.

Also, I'm not sure why you're saying it could cause confusion. The organs we're talking about are not visible in day to day life. Like, I have a uterus. People don't call me ''she'' and stuff because of it. Heck, they don't even know I have one. What's the point of demanding me to have it removed before I can change my papers? It only causes more confusion because you got a man, with a beard and a male voice, who has ''female'' written on his papers. I know what I'm talking about. It was my case for 2 years while I was waiting for the law to change in Quebec, because I was not willing to have a hysterectomy (people would barely notice the F, but when they did, they would just ask me if there was an error on my papers). I did not want to cross out my options at 18, that's madness. Plus, it's not a very pleasant surgery and it takes at least 3 weeks to go back to a somewhat normal life after it. Why have it if it's not really waranted?

As for trans women, same with vaginoplasty. It's a very heavy surgery, it takes a lot to recover from, and then, you have to ''dilate'' every day. That seems like a pain. If you don't want to have it, you shouldn't have to. Plus, it won't really cause confusion either since, you know, it's in your pants. Nobody HAS to see it.

I honestly like how Quebec does it now. It only asks for an oath (from you, plus someone who knows you since at least a year, who's 18 +, and is not a direct member of your family) to testify that you understand how serious this demand is, and then you have to pay and change everything (huge pain in the ass, but hey, it's worth it). You could say they don't ask enough, sure, but what should they ask for, then? Hormones? Not every wants or can take them. Surgery? Same thing. If anything, maybe a letter from a certified gender specialist, but they can be hard to find. I feel like if you're serious and presenting as the gender you identify as, you should have the right to change your name/gender. With how complicated the process is, I don't think anyone would do it ''just for fun''.

 

Ok I'll repeat myself then, it's mainly me - meaning it is my point of view. And I'm afraid that's not going to change.

I'm talking about the biological, scientific aspect. But again I've mentioned this before. Also it maybe worth mentioning (again) that I look at the bigger picture, the whole impact on society and its standards.

Sure I understand that some people don't wanna go trough this but (if you ask me) such people shouldn't be surprised that they won't receive permission to change their gender. Why? Well I've talked about this already. But to summ it up: You can't expect to be a "normal" girl and have people to call you "he". Again, there has to be boundary, a limit, otherwise you could just guess with 50:50 chance everytime while calling someone by prononus and again it would cause quite the chaos.

Well if you remove the need to take hormones (at least) that's it not that complicated is it?

 

PS:
I'm not saying people would do this for fun but you still have people who only think that a gender change is going to help them. Seeing there would be no real change (hormones etc.) what's stopping them?

Here is a thing - the hormonal therapy serves a certain purpose. That purpose is to see for yourself how would you feel while being viewed as the opposite gender. And it's one of the main reasons why some people back off the treatment. Because they find out it's not for them. Without hormonal therapy, well there's no such experience. Not to mention the pronoun confusion.

Sure it can somehow work in few places, but try to imagine this system worldwide.

 

@DarkWhite

I think you're letting your feelings influence you too much in this. I understand that you can't fathom how some people would like to transition without some of the stuff mentionned (heck, I don't understand why a trans guy would not want testosterone or top surgery, if they have a big chest, that is). I can understand their concerns (losing hair, scars, mood swings, surgery complications, etc.), but to me, the benefits outweigh those. But yet, I don't feel that it is truly necessary to have all of that to be trans. Like, a lot of trans guys can pass really well with a simple haircut and the right clothing. If they are comfortable enough to not change anything further (and let's not forget some people can be blessed with really androgynous bodies), then I say more power to you. You don't deserve to be singled out everytime because your papers don't match. If they're willing to go through all the bureaucraty necessary to change their legal gender, plus pay the price, and then go to every single place to change their name/gender in the system, I say why not.

Plus, most places already allow you to legally change your name to something of the opposite sex without any ''proof'' that you're transgender. It just seems weird to me that you would allow one and not the other (lol, I'm saying this as someone who had a male name with female papers for two years. I felt it was so dumb that they did that).

Also, no one is talking about a worldwide system. It's up to every country to decide how to address this issue, and then their citizens can agree, disagree, protest, etc. I prefer to see them come to the conclusion, by themselves, that trans people shouldn't have to be sterilized to be recognized rather than having it imposed on them. It's much more meaningful that way.

You seem to be from a place where they do the ''live 1-2 year as the gender you identify as'' trial, yes? I'm not really familiar with it, to be honest. That's not how it works where I'm from. I don't know how comfortable I'd be with hormones being used for that purpose, because I feel that's more permanent. Like, hormones change things about you that you can't change back (especially testosterone), so using it to see if you like being seen as the other gender is... yeah, not great.

Also, for ''what's stopping them from doing it for fun?'', well, pretty much the same thing that's stopping them from changing their name for something stupid for fun. It's often an unclear process, it can be humiliating, it costs money, it's complicated, there's no one to help you and there's many place you have to change your info in (and you always forget one that comes back to bite you later!). That seems like a lot to go through just for fun or for the hell of it. Regardless, I feel like at least asking for a gender professional's letter wouldn't be too much to ask, just to make sure there's not any underlying causes.

Anyway, I'm not bashing you, I'm just trying to make you look at things from another perspective.

 

You are basing your answer on American laws I suppose ? Because in my home country (and neighbouring ones) new laws have been established meaning I could litterally just walk to the city hall and require to change my papers to state I am now a man. This is FREE and does not require any medical proof or any kind of paper by any medical professional (therapist or else) so yes effectively I could self-identify and legally obtain papers identifying me as a man for a grand total of 0$. Again I am all for people being able to obtain papers that identify them the way they see themselves but I
stick with my opinion that extra steps should be taken to ensure safe spaces are preserved from cis people who might see it as an easy way to access vulnerable women (or men).

The whole toilet thing is a non-issue for me as women's toilets are individual cubicles so don't personally see it as an issue (though I know others do), the whole jail thing is more complicated and delicate and I am still leaning toward preserving the safety of cis women from potential cis men who already showed violent /manipulative behaviour who could be tempted to use self-id as a way to be locked in with women (I think men in jail actually have much more reasons to want to do that than the average guy not due to their criminal past but the conditions of their incirceration making women's jail a much better option.)

So based on the laws in my home country the scenarios I have talked about are real possibilities and while I again think Japan should let people identify as they wish (without them requiring surgery) I continue to think there should be limits to what self-identifying should allow you to access.

 

Perfect.